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Ble

Paladin (healing) Templar

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Posted (edited)

Can anyone point me to anything the developers have said, written or recorded that speaks to their intended vision for this class?  This is one confused cat and cuts the meta for healers by 33%.

 

Beyond that, I've played healers since 1999 (Cleric, EQ) and I typically play every healer in every game so that I can shift with the meta, find synergies etc.   Crowfall is no exception.  I started with Cleric, then played Druid and now Paladin.

 

For me, it comes down to a five major gripes:

1) Dependence on Divine Light

Paladin healing is very tied to and limited by the application of Divine Light.  The paladin is a kid that refuses to leave the sandbox (divine light) even when mom threatens to call dad at work.  It really is that bad.  Here's why:

You need to keep your paladin crit buff stacked up at all times, if you are not, you're falling even further behind the other two healers than you already are.  Outside of devine light, you need to spend 3 abilities to build 1 pip.  This is incredibly inefficient and counterproductive.  1) You aren't healing (and possibly can't heal) during this time, and 2) you don't do enough damage (250, 250, 400 on avg with blue weapon) to warrant using three global cooldowns on damage.

What this means is, ANY time you are not in Divine Light, your effectiveness throws itself off a cliff.  It seems like they tried to make up for this by making Divine Light a very respectable heal with a large radius, and it is nothing short of great.  But our inability to generate pips immediately or heal without pips is a fatal (not joking, though we usually let our group mates pay that price) flaw in the class.

Possible Solutions: Increase the duration of Divine Light for healers and possibly decrease its heal per tic(to give it the same total heal of the use of the ability).  Combo ability that does not start with a heal (dmg reduction, barrier etc) but ends with a heal and pip generation.  Divine light moves with the paladin.

 

2) Mobility

This is a gripe for all of the templar class and it shows itself even moreso in healers.   We are fairly tanky for a healer, but our tankieness does not match that of a cleric or the mobility of a druid as they equate to survivability and continued heal presence even under fire (cleric block heals, druid placed orbs before evading).  The game moves at lightspeed around us while we honor the way of the turtle in all things.

Possible Solutions: Censure changed to also grant increased speed and immunity to movement CC (Free action).  Retaliate for Paladins gives a barrier to me and one other group member, Parry for paladins places a HoT on the paladin and a group member.

 

3) Lack of Synergy with Healing Discs

Did you now that Fountain of Life costs 4 pips?  Hopefully you have a divine light ready because if not, I'll need you to swing your sword 12 times to cast it.  Hope everyone is ok without having a healer do healing for the next 20 seconds as I build up to cast a spell that scales HORRIBLY with my stats.  Realistically, the class needs to gain one single target maintenance heal from its tree.  

 

4) Devotion Caps

I can't even really identify what you've done here but this is the ONLY thing we can rely on for overall sustain while we are out of a divine light window.  Please remove the pip cost of this and uncap it for healers, immediately.  This will also help with number 1.

 

5) Ultimate/Self Survivability

The ultimate ability is basically an AoE blind for a paladin which is wiped away with a single retaliate by everyone every time you use it.  This means that my ult possibly gives my damaged party member 1 second of missed attacks from nearby melee.  It does nothing to the ranged that are attacking them.  It does nothing to help them survive.  It's absolutely horrible and boring.

Being able to survive focus fire is imperative for a healer.  The cleric blocks, the druid evades, the paladin parries while his group and possibly himself dies.  If you take a paladins pips or break his parry, he's super easy to kill.

Possible Solutions: If above 50% HP, ultimate increases HP, damage to my group is halved and redirected to the paladin (sacrifice theme) wherein he applies his mitigations a 2nd time over a short period of time, maybe 6-8 seconds.  If below half HP ultimate blinds and applies large barrier to myself and most damaged group member.  Ultimate resets the cooldown and recasts Divine Light and restores pips immediately to 5.

 

Some of you might say "hey we have a paladin and it works" and to that I'd say, no, you have a paladin and you are vs. bad players and you get away with it.  If you do not believe me, let me know and I'll demonstrate this to you in 5v5 or 10v10 and publish the recording.  We will kill your paladin first, or last, your choice, but either way, it will die and so will the rest of you when up against equal count of druid+clerics on the other side.

 

Strengths of a Paladin: Holy Warrior is fantastically designed, fits the class, fits the situation (crit stacking) and is well done.  Divine Light is a great heal.  Execute can crit for around 1500 on the 2nd tap as a paladin, and although I'd rather be healing, when I do want to assist-damage, execute is pretty nice.

Edited by Ble

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I think the Paladin really does well in the theme/role of being a stalwart area controller/healer but I would generally agree it's too narrowly focused on Divine Light. I would definitely like to see the Paladin gain some other form of healing/pip generation.

Something like changing their Castigate into Righteous Smash combo to do healing on allied targets instead of damage on enemy targets could be very interesting.  By then lowering the healing of Divine Light a bit, the promotion keeps its area controller/healer fantasy, but has the pip generation to have somewhat decent healing outside of DL between Devotion, Judgement and Holy Warrior. Even opening up the possibilities for interesting healing builds that focus more on Devotion by taking damage disciplines (something like Blade Master for an AoE severe bleed on top of Nethari racial for some serious heal burst).

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Giving paladins a way to straight up channel to generate pips wouldn't be out of line IMO. Think of it similar to confessor's mana channel. Maybe have them sacrifice leap for it.

Paladin specifically and templar as a class are built around the central theme of "you are amazing in one very small area" and anything that pushes them away from that flavor, either by making the templar's set too broad, or by giving more area denial utility to other classes would be a bad move IMO.

Templar-as-area-controller is a solid archetype, and the general idea of its specs are really good. Any fix that makes templars less templar is IMO not a fix at all. Make it better at what it does rather than make it better at things it doesn't do.


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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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Paladin can attack , use censure and the aoe combo (forget the name) to generate pips. I think its spot on the way its sitting right now, the DPS that can be put out is far better than any healer out there. Paladin isn't supposed to be a main healer, more of a hybrid CC/DPS Healer. I believe Templar is one of the classes that is balanced just right for its role. 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Use 3 pips to generate some pips?  What is its roll?  Subpar heals, subpar CC and subpar dps all in one?  Check, check and check.

 

Maybe its one of those 'you play for fun but I play to win' differences in perspective.  He doesnt heal well enough to fill one of the two heal spots.  He doesnt do enough dmg to take the spot of a DPS and CC is dumb, no one cares about CC.  We can clear CCs every few seconds and be immune to reapplication quite often.

Edited by Ble

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Posted (edited)

Maybe you are just having a hard time grasping the way he is meant to be played. The heals I put out are decent even for vindicator line (300-700 per tick). My heal circle is bigger than the clerics. I can use reprisal and hit for 2k every second with knockdown if attacked by multiple targets. HP are 12-15k easy and 20k (max) with buffs. The execute with proper crit build can hit for 1.2-1.8k every few seconds.  

 

As I said im sorry you don't grasp the concept. It works well if the user is capable. 

Edited by TheMap

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59 minutes ago, TheMap said:

Maybe you are just having a hard time grasping the way he is meant to be played. The heals I put out are decent even for vindicator line (300-700 per tick). My heal circle is bigger than the clerics. I can use reprisal and hit for 2k every second with knockdown if attacked by multiple targets. HP are 12-15k easy and 20k (max) with buffs. The execute with proper crit build can hit for 12-18k every few seconds.  

 

As I said im sorry you don't grasp the concept. It works well if the user is capable. 

 

Why would you be using the proper crit build as you put it when we're talking about using the Paladin for healing. The stats for healing aren't based on weapon crit anymore.

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@Scorn 

@mhalashace I do believe Templar is your baby.  Please listen to what Ble has to say.  

@thomasblair in case I’m wrong and it’s yours.  


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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2 hours ago, TheMap said:

Paladin can attack , use censure and the aoe combo (forget the name) to generate pips. I think its spot on the way its sitting right now, the DPS that can be put out is far better than any healer out there. Paladin isn't supposed to be a main healer, more of a hybrid CC/DPS Healer. I believe Templar is one of the classes that is balanced just right for its role. 

 

 

In 5.7 or 5.8 they changed its heals (devotion, divine light and divine Warrior) to scale off support power and added a heal to divine Warrior for Paladin.  It’s a melee healer that’s more of a hold this area character.  They added support power scaling to devotion too, something it didn’t have before.  Even it’s capstone is healing based (the Crusader cleric and the Paladin Templar do not benefit from their own passive. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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Posted (edited)

The paladin was a very fun class to play even in green gear / white vessel. But I really agree with the immobility of divine light being a huge achilles heel. 

Still hands down the best farming class due to it's incredible sustain and good AoE damage output, but I'm enjoying the crusader cleric a lot more for PvP. Solo, gang, zerg vs. zerg. I like the cleric better in all 3.

Edited by Andius

"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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Reproach is the only portion of the combo that takes a Pip. So it's 1 pip to potentially generate 5.
With low PCM Discipline powers
I don't have issues with Pips as a Paladin, though I have been playing Templar more than any other class since their inclusion into the game.

The concept of having Righteous Smash apply a Heal sounds pretty awesome, can we make that happen?

I don't count Paladin as a Healer, not a Full Healer anyways.
Divine Light can apply to players outside of group, Devotion Heals do not.


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I don't think the Paladin is intended to be a "full healer". It can be a super effective healer in the the optimal situation but those aren't always happening.

The biggest issue I see a lot of people having with the Paladin is that people HAVE to play around it for it to be effective. It takes considerably more effort as a group to get value out of a Paladin than any other spec.

The Paladin and Vindicator are probably the most powerful specs in the game during Tree of Life fights. Why? Because they're able to easily get value out of their uncapped AoE healing and damage. While also racking up insane parry damage with big Devotion heals.

Yea the Templar in general isn't too great in open field mobile fights but I think I'm okay with it. You're going to have to sacrifice some things if you want the classes in the game to not start feeling homogeneous. 

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Everything Zybak said. Those who just pick up a Templar without knowing and giving it time will find it hard difficult to play. But properly set up is very powerful especially in sieges. The only real issue with Templar at the moment is a gap closer or lack therof.  

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, ZYBAK said:

I don't think the Paladin is intended to be a "full healer". It can be a super effective healer in the the optimal situation but those aren't always happening.

There are three talent specs that get huge blocks of support power as the first talent in their promotion specs and the only passives in the game that having healing components from any of the promotion specs.

Paladin Templar has martyrdom and gets 250 support power per point and its capstone passive triggers off healing people.  The Crusader Cleric has benediction which gives 200 support power per point and its capstone passive triggers off healing people.  Earthwarden Druids have gift of nature which gives 225 per point and its capstone passive triggers off healing people.  They are the only three specs of the 30 in game that share those factors.  They are are the only three classes that their base abilities scale off support power and healing modifier.

1 hour ago, ZYBAK said:

The biggest issue I see a lot of people having with the Paladin is that people HAVE to play around it for it to be effective. It takes considerably more effort as a group to get value out of a Paladin than any other spec.

All three specs of healers have to do this though.  The Cleric has to stand in his own healing circle or he is out healed and needs to keep nearly 100% uptime on tend wounds to stay on par with the other healers (try hitting the right person with a spell every 10 sec in the melee ball meta).  The Templar is based off standing in its circle and its ability to use devotion correctly.  The druid prob has it worst of all: they have to lead people with orbs (which can be taken by others) and channel their largest heal (the only base heal that is charged).

In a melee tip of the spear group the templar shines where the other two fade.  It's the only one of the three classes with a base line movement ability but it in turn lacks mobility for its healing potential.  It's not a strong gank group healer, it's not a good on the move healer but its probably the strongest middle of the poorly made socks siege healer.

Edited by mandalore

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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Posted (edited)

The major problem i see with the whole class, is simply the fact, that you can outplay a templar way too easily no matter his/her skilllevel. The reason for that beeing it's pip generation and lack of mobility.

Even if I can agree that the class is superior at a tree of life fight every decent commander would be able to counter a group that relies on it's templars and stacking your group with templars would render you completly useless in every other scenario than a treeroom or fortroom fight.

 

Edited by Glitchhiker

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16 minutes ago, Glitchhiker said:

The major problem i see with the whole class, is simply the fact, that you can outplay a templar way too easily no matter his/her skilllevel. The reason for that beeing it's pip generation and lack of mobility.

Even if I can agree that the class is superior at a tree of life fight every decent commander would be able to counter a group that relies on it's templars and stacking your group with templars would render you completly useless in every other scenario than a treeroom or fortroom fight.

 

You shouldn't stack any of the healers in any scenario. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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