Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
Sign in to follow this  
Navystylz

DoTs - Damage Over Time

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)

I feel that DoTs in this game and how they were can be very lacking, or that certain abilities fight with each other with overwriting rules. It really makes trying to have a DoT base build either not work, or not straightforward with how things work. I believe with the current way the strength of some DoTs work, that a system could be used to not only have someone's DoT overwrite your own, but work together to be stronger.

Poison

  • Poison - Poisons the target  for X amount. Small DoT, moderate duration. Would have a power of 1 - 3 based on the ability, if it was class or discipline based.
  • Moderate Poison - Poisons the target for X amount. Moderate DoT, the damage being something you'd want to keep and eye on and cleanse rather than let it tick. Power of 4 - 6.
  • Severe Poison - Poisons the target for high X amount but shorter duration. Strong DoT, non-tanks would want to cleanse or mitigate immediately or the damage would be significant. Power of 7 - 9

I forget the names of each strength, but I know moderate and severe are the mid and heavy version of poison, bleed, corruption, and fire. Now this is where the new bit would come in.

  • Deadly Poison - Poison the target for X amount and Y debuff. Strong DoT, would want immediate cleanse, mitigate or focused healing. Strongest DoT which if left alone could mean death with addition of other incoming damage. Power of 10

What is power? Power is a number flagged on the DoT that lets us know the strength of the DoT, which is based on source of the DoT. But now, instead of another player's poison DoT, or a different ability that poisons overwriting the existing dot, it would add it's power and upgrade the damage, and also refresh the duration to the DoTs type.

Example: You use X power that applies severe poison of power 8, and an ally or yourself hits the target with a poison of power 2. That power of 8 + 2 = 10, would upgrade the DoT to severe poison.

Example 2: You use X power that applies severe poison of power 8, and an ally or yourself hits the target with a poison of power 1. That power of 8 + 1 = 10, would simply refresh the DoT's duration, but remain a severe poison.

Example 3: You use use X power that applies poison of power 2, and an ally or yourself hits the target with a severe poison power 7. That power of 2 + 7 = 9, would overwrite the poison and apply severe poison.

In this sense power is simply a threshold that must be surpassed before upgrading to the next strength, otherwise the DoT is overwritten or simply refreshed. Power doesn't determine damage of the DoT's severity.

Deadly severity of DoT would not be available through any ability and would require stepping up the DoT's severity through stacking. This way no DoT power is wasted, and you could build around team dotting a specific type, or say an Assassin with your own toxins and poisoner giving you the ability to stack your DoTs into a deadly toxin.

Duration

Where normal, moderate and severe versions of the DoT would have the same duration, differing damage. Deadly would have much higher damage, but cut the duration. And deadly would also apply a DoT type specific debuff. 

Example: Ability X severe poison does X damage over 11 seconds. When DoT becomes Deadly it does critical X damage over 6 seconds and applies a debuff for target to take more damage for X seconds.

Deadly Debuffs

  • Poison - Applies increased damage to target
  • Corruption - Applies tainted (corruption will jump to nearby targets, small chance duration resets on original target)
  • Disease - Applies Shadow Mantle
  • Fire - Applies weakness (melee and power damage modifier debuff)
  • Frostbite - Applies root (normal frostbite is a dot/slow, so the deadly would root)
  • Bleed -  Applies increased ability cooldown

These could be anything really. But deadly debuffs would not be subject to retaliation. Abilities duration balanced around ensuring that cooldowns on one person can't make it such that a person is spending all their time with something they can't retaliate.  

Numbers and balancing aside, I think it would be a nice way to make DoTs of the same type useful on multiple people without overwriting, and allow a player to stack several of same type to proc a deadly. Devs could balance numbers so that while 5 fire dots can't be stacked on one target, the upgrade system would allow those fire dots to combine to be something worth being scared of. Players would need to learn to play around when to clear a dot. If it's 1 player, clearing a poison immediately could prevent stacking a deadly up and in a group setting you'd need to learn when to clear before those high dmg ticks of a deadly could hit, possibly doing as much or nearly as much as the less severe dots over their duration. Then there's a meta of should I clear deadly fire so we don't get power debuffed, or be sure that a shadow mantle can't be applied and get someone killed.

Edited by Navystylz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not a huge fan of the idea. Creative for sure though. 

Just unlock DoT stack caps and it will be fine. GW2 had a very similar issue with people overriding each others DoTs and having single target stack caps. Let people stack severe above 1 and moderate above 3.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, 1304049 said:

Not a huge fan of the idea. Creative for sure though. 

Just unlock DoT stack caps and it will be fine. GW2 had a very similar issue with people overriding each others DoTs and having single target stack caps. Let people stack severe above 1 and moderate above 3.

GW2 literally does what this post suggests, but the way their condition system works the damage would stack too high and come too fast. This game isn't design around conditions and boons so that kind of stacking would kill someone without anyone being able to react with limited removals. And honestly, that style of stacking has no place in Crowfall. Also all conditions stacked, not just damage ones. This game doesn't have that amount of conditions to have a system like that.

The limited number of them would make a system like I propose, a better system.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Navystylz said:

GW2 literally does what this post suggests, but the way their condition system works the damage would stack too high and come too fast. This game isn't design around conditions and boons so that kind of stacking would kill someone without anyone being able to react with limited removals. And honestly, that style of stacking has no place in Crowfall. Also all conditions stacked, not just damage ones. This game doesn't have that amount of conditions to have a system like that.

The limited number of them would make a system like I propose, a better system.

I mean, it doesn't. Each condition effect applies it's own intensity independently from the others, with no added effects for certain stack "power" or quantity. GW2 just has no stack caps (well it's like 1500 caps) and each application adds onto previous applications from a single player. Other players adding onto the stack in no way changes anything aside from just increasing the number of individual stacks on a target, which means nothing. Players are just able to do their full damage without worrying about other players.

I really don't see how it would kill someone without people being able to react. we have resistances to all DoT damage types, more than a few cleanses and damage type immures, plus ult powers. The only possible way that it would get out of hand is with a group fully built out to stack DoT's on someone, but guess what...just run like 2 field surgeons and you counter that group. Nothing about CF DoT damage changes with my suggestion except just unlocking stacks so you can have more than one DoT applier in a group. 

But w/e

Edited by 1304049

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, 1304049 said:

I mean, it doesn't.

All conditions have effect stacking, with all control conditions stacking in duration while all damaging conditions like bleeding, confusion, torment, and vulnerability stack in intensity.

  • 1 stack of 10 second Bleeding.png Bleeding is applied to a target. 1 second later, a 6-second stack of bleeding is applied to the same target by a second source. For 6 seconds, the target will take damage over time from both stacks of bleeding. After that, the second bleed effect will expire, and for 3 seconds the target will continue to suffer the bleeding from the first effect, which then expires.

GW2 either combines or increases intensity.

Don't know if it's limitation or by design they only want 1 debuff of a type working on a character at once. But running with the assumption they only want 1 of a type, to control how much that type can do to a person in an instance. (And probably controlling performance with the way the UI can lag someone out currently)

normal > moderate > severe > deadly is an increase in intensity.  But up to a point, which give more dmg and debuff

Since most DoT generally have a more hefty CD on them than the speed in which they stack in GW2, it would allow all the things I suggest in the OP

  1.  to not just overwrite, but work off each other, power is essentially saying you have multiple sources of the dot so damage upgrades (intensity)
  2.  to stack in intensity but not indefinitely, (deadly cap and debuff)
  3.  since the damage is limited, the deadly version is much stronger in damage and debuffs 

Anyhow, was just a suggestion for a stacking mechanic that was a little more interesting than just add them together like GW2. While keeping the damage controlled (under the assumption they don't want crazy dot easily). My suggestion was basically a combination of Gw2 and Ultima Online.

Edited by Navystylz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

So...you just proved my point? That GW2 works how I suggested and not at all like how you suggested. It just stacks DoT's while keeping track of each DoT application instance. Which is what i suggested. Just allow multiple people to apply stacks without overriding other players. There are no levels to increase in intensity, it simply calculates the total damage of each individual instance. there are no added debuffs at stack levels, which was your suggestion no? 

18 hours ago, Navystylz said:

In this sense power is simply a threshold that must be surpassed before upgrading to the next strength, otherwise the DoT is overwritten or simply refreshed. Power doesn't determine damage of the DoT's severity.

Oh yes, it is. 

12 minutes ago, Navystylz said:

Since most DoT generally have a more hefty CD on them than the speed in which they stack in GW2, it would allow all the things I suggest in the OP

Again, no. You can literally apply a stack of bleeding with each auto when they crit. Or 10 stacks of burning with a torch ability with a 12s CD. Or 9 stacks of bleeding on a dagger ability with a 6 second CD. If anything it's the complete opposite. I've played GW2 at the top level since release, I would know...and it's possible because of the massive amount of condition cleanse within the game for it to act that way.

Moving it over to Crowfall where the CD actually is hefty for DoT abilities, it makes more sense to allow uncapped player stacks, which frankly like I said won't reach any meaningful stack number without a specialized group which is easily countered, while keeping cleanses and dmg-immunes at a reasonable power level.

Edited by 1304049

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, 1304049 said:

So...you just proved my point? That GW2 works how I suggested and not at all like how you suggested. It just stacks DoT's while keeping track of each DoT application instance. Which is what i suggested. Just allow multiple people to apply stacks without overriding other players. There are no levels to increase in intensity, it simply calculates the total damage of each individual instance. there are no added debuffs at stack levels, which was your suggestion no? 

Oh yes, it is. 

Again, no. You can literally apply a stack of bleeding with each auto when they crit. Or 10 stacks of burning with a torch ability with a 12s CD. Or 9 stacks of bleeding on a dagger ability with a 6 second CD. If anything it's the complete opposite. I've played GW2 at the top level since release, I would know...and it's possible because of the massive amount of condition cleanse within the game for it to act that way.

Moving it over to Crowfall where the CD actually is hefty for DoT abilities, it makes more sense to allow uncapped player stacks, which frankly like I said won't reach any meaningful stack number without a specialized group which is easily countered, while keeping cleanses and dmg-immunes at a reasonable power level.

Your reading comprehension is flawed here. Or you just barely grazed what was written and picked out what looked like agreed with you.

1. I didn't prove your point, as I explained about stacking limitations

  • Deadly severity of DoT would not be available through any ability and would require stepping up the DoT's severity through stacking
  • But running with the assumption they only want 1 of a type, to control how much that type can do to a person in an instance.
  • increase in intensity.  But up to a point, 
  • to stack in intensity but not indefinitely, (deadly cap and debuff)
  • since the damage is limited, the deadly version is much stronger in damage and debuffs 
  • While keeping the damage controlled (under the assumption they don't want crazy dot easily). 

2. More flawed inability for you to comprehend what is written. 

  • But deadly debuffs would not be subject to retaliation.
  • Abilities duration balanced around ensuring that cooldowns on one person can't make it such that a person is spending all their time with something they can't retaliate. 
  • GW2 either combines or increases intensity.
  • since the damage is limited, the deadly version is much stronger in damage and debuffs 
  • Anyhow, was just a suggestion for a stacking mechanic that was a little more interesting than just add them together like GW2. 
  •  My suggestion was basically a combination of Gw2 and Ultima Online.

3. Confusing what I was actually talking about

  • GW2 either combines or increases intensity.
  • Since most DoT generally have a more hefty CD on them than the speed in which they stack in GW2, it would allow all the things I suggest in the OP. [Saying one game is different than another]

4. And you literally come full circle back to why I propose a different system in Crowfall than GW2

  • You can literally apply a stack of bleeding with each auto when they crit.
  • Or 10 stacks of burning with a torch ability with a 12s CD.
  • and it's possible because of the massive amount of condition cleanse within the game for it to act that way.
  • and it's possible because of the massive amount of condition cleanse within the game for it to act that way.
  • AND IT'S POSSIBLE BECAUSE OF THE MASSIVE AMOUNT OF CONDITION CLEANSE WITHIN THE GAME FOR IT TO ACT THAT WAY.

Hence my assumption Crowfall was trying not to let DoT stack like that to be out of control. Hence my suggestion how they can make no DoT feel wasted with a limited refresh/upgrade to something stronger. Hence my suggestion on how at a certain point give a intensity only available by stacking, as a sort of reward to make it feel worthwhile, without stacking 20 DoT on someone to absolutely destroy them. Hence my assertion that stacking like that can only work: to stack in intensity but not indefinitely, (deadly cap and debuff) because we can't cleanse with the ease that you can in GW2.

Ok. I'm done. Later.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Navystylz said:

Your reading comprehension is flawed here. Or you just barely grazed what was written and picked out what looked like agreed with you.

1. I didn't prove your point, as I explained about stacking limitations

  • Deadly severity of DoT would not be available through any ability and would require stepping up the DoT's severity through stacking
  • But running with the assumption they only want 1 of a type, to control how much that type can do to a person in an instance.
  • increase in intensity.  But up to a point, 
  • to stack in intensity but not indefinitely, (deadly cap and debuff)
  • since the damage is limited, the deadly version is much stronger in damage and debuffs 
  • While keeping the damage controlled (under the assumption they don't want crazy dot easily). 

2. More flawed inability for you to comprehend what is written. 

  • But deadly debuffs would not be subject to retaliation.
  • Abilities duration balanced around ensuring that cooldowns on one person can't make it such that a person is spending all their time with something they can't retaliate. 
  • GW2 either combines or increases intensity.
  • since the damage is limited, the deadly version is much stronger in damage and debuffs 
  • Anyhow, was just a suggestion for a stacking mechanic that was a little more interesting than just add them together like GW2. 
  •  My suggestion was basically a combination of Gw2 and Ultima Online.

3. Confusing what I was actually talking about

  • GW2 either combines or increases intensity.
  • Since most DoT generally have a more hefty CD on them than the speed in which they stack in GW2, it would allow all the things I suggest in the OP. [Saying one game is different than another]

4. And you literally come full circle back to why I propose a different system in Crowfall than GW2

  • You can literally apply a stack of bleeding with each auto when they crit.
  • Or 10 stacks of burning with a torch ability with a 12s CD.
  • and it's possible because of the massive amount of condition cleanse within the game for it to act that way.
  • and it's possible because of the massive amount of condition cleanse within the game for it to act that way.
  • AND IT'S POSSIBLE BECAUSE OF THE MASSIVE AMOUNT OF CONDITION CLEANSE WITHIN THE GAME FOR IT TO ACT THAT WAY.

Hence my assumption Crowfall was trying not to let DoT stack like that to be out of control. Hence my suggestion how they can make no DoT feel wasted with a limited refresh/upgrade to something stronger. Hence my suggestion on how at a certain point give a intensity only available by stacking, as a sort of reward to make it feel worthwhile, without stacking 20 DoT on someone to absolutely destroy them. Hence my assertion that stacking like that can only work: to stack in intensity but not indefinitely, (deadly cap and debuff) because we can't cleanse with the ease that you can in GW2.

Ok. I'm done. Later.

Hmmm yikes. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It would be nice to see conditions become a little less about an alternative way to deal core damage. Maybe provide more abilities with triggers based on those conditions and provide some added utility or effect that is not about damage to health. I'm not against there being DoT builds in any way. It's just with the core stats of gear having such a large influence on damage output, if there really is a concern that DoTs under perform, than it might be better to see how these effects might contribute to controlling the pace of combat, rather than purely speeding it up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...