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Yoink

Farming R10s 15 minutes into a fresh server. Why?

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So I'm going to complain about passive training again. Last night was the first "fresh" start I've played in a while. I understand that we came in with crafted vessels.

I have been training my accounts this whole time. We are at 3x so I have maybe a years worth of training?

I logged in at server up on a combat/mining trained character with a guildie trained in combat/rune-making. We made a few knotwood tools and ran out to the PvP zones hitting R3-6 nodes to make 3 green harvesting picks. They ranged from +40-50 mining. Also made a few white advanced picks.

We spent maybe 15 minutes doing this? We then started to just blast away on R10 nodes and motherlodes. After about an 1.5 hours of farming we had hundreds blue/purple/legendary ore/mats.

We had enough to make 4x full blue component weapons. Also had enough to make a purple weapon or two and probably half way to making a leg 1H I think. Also had a good bit of blue, purple, orange gems.

 

This can't be how the game is intended to be is it?

Are white and green quality materials meant to be 100% obsolete a year into the game?

Are we meant to be geared up in Blue/Purple gear day 1 of every campaign after enough passive training?

How do you expect someone who starts a year after launch to compete?

Does no one else want to run around with everybody in crap gear for the start of every fresh campaign? For me this is the whole draw of restarting campaigns. Not just everyone starting fresh, but everyone starting new. I want there to be gear progression over the life of each campaign.

 

Possible solutions-

Do something better than passive training.

Reset passive training each campaign.

Don't do passive training.

Only allow access to a certain % of passive training that increases over the life of the campaign. Lets say you divided up all the skill trees into 4 parts.

Lets call the columns Spring, Summer, Autumn, Winter.

Spoiler

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Train the trees passively as normal, but the benefit from the skills in each column only apply based on the season of the current campaign. In Spring you would only get the benefit from what you have trained in the fist column. Summer, the first 2 columns. Autumn, the first 3 columns and Winter, All of them.

I think this might add a bit more progression to each campaign. It would also help to alleviate the gap between new players and veterans in the earlier stages of each campaign.

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Posted (edited)
Quote

Are white and green quality materials meant to be 100% obsolete a year into the game?

Does no one else want to run around with everybody in crap gear for the start of every fresh campaign?

I think the answer to that question is, "on certain campaign worlds, with no imports and where the tier of resources are limited, yes".  

The start is a grind, but what you are describing is a "rush".  I personally don't see the problem with not having to deal with the time part of that every world, and move as quickly as possible onto the conquest side of things. 

If what you want is "I want there to be gear progression over the life of each campaign.", then I would much rather they add a campaign nob that allows them to escalate the tier qualities by season. so that for example that T1 node you saw in spring, becomes a T7 node in the fall, while the plentiful harvest buff has dropped off and only well organized or trained players can make better gear than the white/green they got in the early seasons.

Maybe even a campaign dial that ignores all or some of the passive trees.  So for example a campaign that blocks access to all but the "Basic" skills until winter hits, like your diagram.  I would put the blocks at the already existing zones in the trees.  So spring is "Basics" (everyone runs around in intermediate gear) because nobody can craft advanced, then summer you get for example "armor" and "weapons" in the combat tree, and then fall/winter you get the full training. 

But asking (repeatedly) for a full passive tree revisit at this time it pretty much a non-starter.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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I'm not sure, but they seem to be able to put many universal buffs/penalties into the seasons, so that could/should be possible. 

Now convincing them to make some parts "more", and other parts "less" as seasons progress given the existing narrative, might take some doing.

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Posted (edited)

I absolutely agree. I think there needs to be a progression of your trained skills that match the progression of the CW.

I think you more or less said this above and I think it has a lot of merits. The way I envision is that when the CW starts, everyone is at 25% (Spring) on all training. As the CW ages, so does your trained training. Each tree you have would be unlocked in accordance with how much of the CW has elapsed.

below is a sample graphed out.

Spring 25.00%   Training Training completed Spring Summer  Fall  Winter
Summer 50%   Basic Combat 100.00% 25.00% 50.00% 75.00% 100.00%
Fall 75%   Melee 20.00% 5.00% 10.00% 15.00% 20.00%
Winter 100%   Armor 40.00% 10.00% 20.00% 30.00% 40.00%

This would allow for new players to have a chance and not start behind but also reward veterans for having more training than others, especially towards the end. 

 

Edited by Brightdance

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

But asking (repeatedly) for a full passive tree revisit at this time it pretty much a non-starter.

I know I listed it but it was mostly meant as sarcasm. I do not expect the passive skill trees to go away. Like you said, I want there to be a progression through each campaign.

Fresh campaign starts. Everyone goes out and rushes to get geared up, but you can really only get white material with some green here and there. Everyone is in white for the most part. Summer rolls around and either node rank increases or skill unlocks and people can now set the standard at green with some blue. And so on and so on.

Edited by Yoink

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2 minutes ago, Yoink said:

I know I listed it but it was mostly meant as sarcasm. I do not expect the passive skill trees to go away. Like you said, I want there to be a progression through each campaign.

Fresh campaign starts. Everyone goes out and rushes to get geared up, but you can really only get white material with some green here and there. Everyone is in white for the most part. Summer rolls around and either node rank increases or skill unlocks and people can now set the standard at green with some blue. And so on and so on.

Rank up on Tiers would have more control on quality than training.  Skills do not NEED to be unlocked with T10's to get materials. 

I have an account with near zero training in harvesting, and pulled a couple of legendary mats last night with white tools on the T10 around our keep.  If I was serious about it, and did more than a couple of solo nodes, with equally untrained friends, using food buffs (I didn't bother with those), I'm sure that a couple of us could have put together a blue set of gear on day one.

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1 hour ago, Yoink said:

 

How do you expect someone who starts a year after launch to compete?

Does no one else want to run around with everybody in crap gear for the start of every fresh campaign? For me this is the whole draw of restarting campaigns. Not just everyone starting fresh, but everyone starting new. I want there to be gear progression over the life of each campaign.

 

Possible solutions-

Do something better than passive training.

Reset passive training each campaign.

Don't do passive training.

I think this might add a bit more progression to each campaign. It would also help to alleviate the gap between new players and veterans in the earlier stages of each campaign.

Here's my Pipe Dream.
Personally, I would love to see Passive Training be FAST (old 10x or so) and Reset fairly frequently (perhaps not every CW but about every 3-4 months)

This would allow Game Balance Shifts fairly often in the Passive Trees.
This would enable Newer Players to never be THAT far behind established ones.

However, I understand the desire for a long term investment with an account and how frequent wipes could turn some people away.
With the Pacing being as slow as it is Crafting and Harvesting Burnout would be likely though.
That's an issue any game will have to face, making sure that the Pacing feels right for the type of game it is while keeping the game engaging and fun.
I don't necessarily get the concept of building connection to a character in Crowfall-Crows are glorified zombie pawns for the Gods.

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Scorn said:

Here's my Pipe Dream.
Personally, I would love to see Passive Training be FAST (old 10x or so) and Reset fairly frequently (perhaps not every CW but about every 3-4 months)

This would allow Game Balance Shifts fairly often in the Passive Trees.
This would enable Newer Players to never be THAT far behind established ones.

However, I understand the desire for a long term investment with an account and how frequent wipes could turn some people away.
With the Pacing being as slow as it is Crafting and Harvesting Burnout would be likely though.
That's an issue any game will have to face, making sure that the Pacing feels right for the type of game it is while keeping the game engaging and fun.
I don't necessarily get the concept of building connection to a character in Crowfall-Crows are glorified zombie pawns for the Gods.

I want something a bit different, because of the requirement for long term investment.

Two passive training sets per account. 

One is eternal and forever (current model), and one is reset and then used when entering specific campaigns, (one at a time limit for these types of campaigns, and every vessel that enters on the account resets the training), with each of those campaigns having a dial for the speed of training.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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2 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

I want something a bit different, because of the requirement for long term investment.

Two passive training sets per account. 

One is eternal and forever (current model), and one is reset and then used when entering specific campaigns, (one at a time limit for these types of campaigns, and every vessel that enters on the account resets the training), with each of those campaigns having a dial for the speed of training.

That could be interesting actually, having a more specialized training specific for those CWs.

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Posted (edited)

Couple thoughts on this:

  1. I don't think forts/keeps should have high rank nodes around them. I actually don't think they should have advanced nodes on the parcels at all. 
    1. Performance wise, advanced nodes (unlike slag/knotwood/cobble) have some effect FPS so not having them on the parcel means fights on these parcels will perform better.
    2. Keeps especially have become the BEST harvesting locations because they have the highest concentration of R10 nodes, they have walls/guards nearby, and they don't have any monsters to deal with. This has made other harvesting locations such as adventure zones somewhat obsolete. This is further compounded by the implementation of war tribes. 

I think by moving high end advanced nodes to monster spawn locations (adventure zones, war tribe camps, etc). it'll mean it's a lot more difficult to go STRAIGHT TO R10 if you have to fight off R10 monsters to get to the R10's. 

That alone could force some progression. You'll have to gear up in some lower quality advanced gear to be able to take on R10 monsters. 

I also think that having nodes around forts/keeps is contributing to people only really hanging around the forts/keeps and not exploring quite as much. Leaves a lot of dead zones in the map. 

I was a big proponent of the 5.4 ganelon keep harvesting but putting a bunch of nodes around a keep has resulted in some unforseen consequences and I think they are part of the issues that the OP raised. There can still be clusters of nodes outside of the adventure zones but I think the high rank stuff should be in the adventure zones. 

Edited by blazzen

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Just now, Yoink said:

I'd agree with everything above. I literally farmed/crafted a set of advanced blue gear with out going into combat stance once. If I wanted I could have done the same for purple.

1) It was too easy to find the spot where you could do that. No exploration required, just run to the balance keep and start.

2) Population is still very low. No real competition over resources.

Keeps/forts shouldn't be the best place to farm. Some level of exploration should be required to discover where the best stuff is. I'm not sure the adventure zones should be the "best" either. They should be good, but the very top end stuff should be randomly scattered on the map, not placed densely in predictable spots.

A sufficient population to ensure some competition over scarce resources will presumably happen some day.

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1 hour ago, Scorn said:

Here's my Pipe Dream.
Personally, I would love to see Passive Training be FAST (old 10x or so) and Reset fairly frequently (perhaps not every CW but about every 3-4 months)

This would allow Game Balance Shifts fairly often in the Passive Trees.
This would enable Newer Players to never be THAT far behind established ones.

However, I understand the desire for a long term investment with an account and how frequent wipes could turn some people away.
With the Pacing being as slow as it is Crafting and Harvesting Burnout would be likely though.
That's an issue any game will have to face, making sure that the Pacing feels right for the type of game it is while keeping the game engaging and fun.
I don't necessarily get the concept of building connection to a character in Crowfall-Crows are glorified zombie pawns for the Gods.

 

Maybe they could add some kind of feature to the game that you could level up or increase or upgrade by sacrificing your own personal passive training.

We sacrifice stuff in campaigns to level up something, maybe you could sacrifice stuff outside of campaigns to level up something outside of campaigns. Not sure what that is, but it would soften the blow of having passive training reset, or encourage people to self-rest. Kind of off the wall, but there you go.

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1 hour ago, blazzen said:

I was a big proponent of the 5.4 ganelon keep harvesting

The thing that was great about the 5.4 map was each keep had a high concentration of a specific resource only. Creating a strategic reason to hold one keep vs another, and possibilities of trade between guilds holding keeps in a long duration (3 month) campaign. Imagine a CW with 15 keeps, and each has only one resource - the Iron Keep, the Auroch Keep 🤣 etc. When there is a concurrent population of 2000 players this seems like a real possibility.

I'm totally bored with MMOs that focus all the gameplay on individual gear progression -  I'm hoping CF will do something more innovative with strategy and survival elements.

 

 

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Here are a few problems with the thought process of "ranking up" through throttling resources or skills

We're meant to begin in "harvesting season" with heavy incentives to do exactly what you (and everyone else) is doing. Hit the ground running and harvest up as much stuff as possible, as quickly as possible. If you can only hit the ground running for garbage, you're not going to stockpile garbage. You're going to make quick garbage gear, pvp other people in garbage gear, and wait until fall to do your "real" harvesting when its worth the time and effort for better materials. This flips the entire intent of the slow slide from plenty to scarcity and spring to winter on its head and essentially removes incentives to play for anything but mob farming in the early game due to less valuable objectives combined with less valuable materials.

Also keep in mind that r10 nodes may not even be *available* in certain world bands and that the current spread of resources is likely not representative of a release era 3 faction campaign. While you may lament greens being obsolete, for many campaigns greens may be the norm. Rarity tiers are as much about the EK economy as the campaigns themselves, and the primary motivator to go to harder bands is better stuff while risking greater difficulty getting and keeping said stuff. For a dregs campaign with ready access to R10 nodes, yeah, whites and greens may be obsolete by design. That's the carrot on the stick for people thrashing the lower threat campaigns to move up to your level so they have to stop buying their purples from you. For a 3 faction campaign at soft launch, an R5 node might be the upper limit. In order for this system to work at all it only makes sense that lower tier goods become essentially obsolete in higher tier worlds. Note that the mechanics of harvesting place very little emphasis on having any pre-existing highly ranked goods in order to very quickly access highly ranked goods. Someone coming from a year of playing max r5 ranked campaigns could choose to join dregs, and assuming appropriate training levels, be rady to face that world. That's a good thing in my opinion.

 

A few constructive thoughts

Radical scaling of resource ranks is a very interesting campaign knob to play with. A campaigns that starts in a different season for instance, or one which requires sacrifices at shrines to upgrade the surrounding materials. While I think its a poor fit for the core gameplay, its a great concept to build variant rulesets around.

 

Its encouraging to see that people still have the best interests of new players and the overall impact of the NPE in mind.


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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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Posted (edited)

Bwahahaha. Check out some of the posts from 2 years ago almost to the day. Just amazing.

Our Arguments is a flat circle.

Here is one. 
unknown.png

 

 

Edited by srathor

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Posted (edited)

I was wondering if all harvestable nodes simply ranked up over time if not harvested and ranked down when they are...   this would make all nodes across all maps valuable and the ones a long way out be worth checking regularly to see if they hit valuable ranks.    This would of course work much better in GvG campaigns than in Faction because a guild could camp a node or have them watched by scouts/assassins until they got the desired level.   Yes. it sounds like babysitting a node but it would cut the number of R10 nodes way down and after prime time most nodes would be pushed down every day.   Say R1-R4 is 30 min to rank if not harvested...  R5-R7 one hour...  R8-R9 take 90 min, R10 is a 2 hour wait.     

 

 

Edited by Frykka

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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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