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Yoink

Farming R10s 15 minutes into a fresh server. Why?

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8 hours ago, Yoink said:

How do you expect someone who starts a year after launch to compete?

Reset passive training each campaign.

Don't do passive training.

Tomes are supposed to magically fix the problem despite the system making little sense in helping new players.

Several folks, including myself, brought up these issues probably in 2015 (I believe) and made similar suggestions. We were told to go play a MOBA in less than friendly manner.

Linear/Vertical progression leads to these issues that tend to make early progress pointless after a while. Too bad they didn't go with a more horizontal approach that would of been great with such focus on harvesting and crafting.

Suggestion I had years ago was multiple (at least 2) training systems.

A global system that was permanent and applied to core servers with typical import/export and rewards as we have now.

A secondary per campaign training system could be adjusted as need/want required.

New/Vets would train the same keeping it fair in at least this area, no catch up mechanics needed. Could have different training speeds, give X time to spend at the start and that's all you get, limit which paths or how much players could train, etc. All of which would make it more about in the moment decisions and not what someone did two years earlier.

These campaigns could have different import/export (maybe none), different rewards, or whatever possible. Basically the typical battleground/arena lobby match that could be self contained or have some impact on the greater game.

Crowfall is after all a glorified lobby game with longer matches. 

As is, passive training doesn't help casual players IMO (as supposedly intended) and adds little to the game that couldn't be done with in-game mechanics. To me the bland passive system just rewards older accounts, alt armies, lacks risk v reward or active in-game playing.

At least without needing to re-level vessels or go through gear progression you can hop right back into standing in circles 🤣

7 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

But asking (repeatedly) for a full passive tree revisit at this time it pretty much a non-starter.

Agreed, but if enough of the design needs work come launch or in the short term before they can fix things, the game might be a non-starter.

6 hours ago, Scorn said:

I don't necessarily get the concept of building connection to a character in Crowfall-Crows are glorified zombie pawns for the Gods.

When vessels weren't a thing and characters would go poof just like campaigns I would agree, but apparently some need to feel connected with their Frankenstein creations and now we have permanent characters. While the lore might explain it (didn't watch the whole recent stream), the concept of crows-vessels-passive training-levels, etc makes little sense to me.

3 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

Also keep in mind that r10 nodes may not even be *available* in certain world bands

That's the carrot on the stick for people thrashing the lower threat campaigns to move up to your level so they have to stop buying their purples from you.

Exactly. Risk v Reward.

Harsher worlds (low to no import/export, winner takes all) should have higher quantity/quality resources.

No idea if this is still planned as they appear to have gutted the world band concept, but I assume that the current model is what they have for us in "pre-alpha" and not close to final.

However, expecting new players to play in low tier worlds until enough time has passed won't likely go over well long term. Not sure how long a natural progression should take, but if someone wants to jump straight into the Dregs or whatever ruleset but is time gated to be competitive to some degree, I don't see that being a selling point. "Play to Crush....after months in newbie land!!!!"

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25 minutes ago, APE said:

Harsher worlds (low to no import/export, winner takes all) should have higher quantity/quality resources.

I'm all about the risk/reward thing, but I still fail to understand the point of having exports in tandem with low or no imports. What good is an export that will never become an import? If I can't smash you with it in the next campaign, what's the point of exporting it?

I've always been of the opinion that the import/export thing has been bass ackward when compared to the realms;

  • New player realms should be no or low import, limited rewards, unlimited exports.
  • Faction realms should be limited import, better rewards, limited exports.
  • Dregs should be nearly unlimited import, best rewards, little or no exports for loosers, limited exports for winners. 20-50 widgets of ultimate power to the leader of the winning guild to distribute among guild members, allies & subject guilds.

The shallower realms should be about building up toward going deeper, while the deepest realms should be about risking the treasure you've amassed, hoping for victory.

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1 hour ago, VaMei said:

I'm all about the risk/reward thing, but I still fail to understand the point of having exports in tandem with low or no imports. What good is an export that will never become an import? If I can't smash you with it in the next campaign, what's the point of exporting it?

I've always been of the opinion that the import/export thing has been bass ackward when compared to the realms;

  • New player realms should be no or low import, limited rewards, unlimited exports.
  • Faction realms should be limited import, better rewards, limited exports.
  • Dregs should be nearly unlimited import, best rewards, little or no exports for loosers, limited exports for winners. 20-50 widgets of ultimate power to the leader of the winning guild to distribute among guild members, allies & subject guilds.

The shallower realms should be about building up toward going deeper, while the deepest realms should be about risking the treasure you've amassed, hoping for victory.

I fully agree with your breakdown.

The current design lacks risk vs reward for the most part. There needs to be a way to put it all on the table and risk it all. Failing at crafting because RNG gods are mean is not the risk I seek.

However, while I want high import/low export for risk v reward, I'd also like more bare bones competitive campaigns that limit outside influence.

No import puts everyone to day 1 like the current campaign, BUT passive training screws that up. While I'd liked to see passive training resets or whatever for particular campaigns, I'd at least settle for no imports.

What's funny is there are people not liking passive training because of the imbalance, some don't like the amount of grinding required to level/gear up, then there are those mad because some guilds work together and actually organize, but one thing is still missing. Money...

RMT, cash shop, 3rd parties, etc. If people actually end up throwing cash at the screen, oh boy.

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Posted (edited)

Are we playing an MMO or a MOBA? I can guarantee you I would not play this game any longer if progression constantly reset. I already feel zero fun this campaign. I log in to help guildies out with stuff. I'm not having fun in the least playing the farm game over and over. Not to even touch on how all the recent changes make this even worse. I also don't think forcing people to be stuck with low quality materials to make it more "valuable" is any kind of answer either.

This is supposed to be a PvP game with winnable campaigns so game doesn't stagnant. Right now, instead, it feels like a survival simulator that doesn't feel much different than Life Is Feudal. People are actively avoiding PvP because time spent doing that is time that isn't going into progressing your character for the tons of stuff they need. 

And yet players who are part of huge machines churning this crap out to be good, think it's too easy. Not everyone are in huge guilds like Winterblades, or think it's even remotely fun to play a game like a job to be the best. Especially not in a pre-alpha state.

Edited by Navystylz

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Navystylz said:

Are we playing an MMO or a MOBA? I can guarantee you I would not play this game any longer if progression constantly reset. I already feel zero fun this campaign. I log in to help guildies out with stuff. I'm not having fun in the least playing the farm game over and over. Not to even touch on how all the recent changes make this even worse. I also don't think forcing people to be stuck with low quality materials to make it more "valuable" is any kind of answer either.

This is supposed to be a PvP game with winnable campaigns so game doesn't stagnant. Right now, instead, it feels like a survival simulator that doesn't feel much different than Life Is Feudal. People are actively avoiding PvP because time spent doing that is time that isn't going into progressing your character for the tons of stuff they need. 

And yet players who are part of huge machines churning this crap out to be good, think it's too easy. Not everyone are in huge guilds like Winterblades, or think it's even remotely fun to play a game like a job to be the best. Especially not in a pre-alpha state.

Clearly this is not a MOBA or anything like one, to me that is quite a leap. Some suggesting alternative campaign types (which is supposed to be a core feature) would not make this a MOBA.

I don't know what type of MMO it is. Things I consider fairly important like combat, campaign rulesets, win/loss conditions, land control, POI mechanics beyond stand in a circle or bang on a tree don't seem to be the focus. Every update brings more grind and PVE. Maybe 5.9, 6.0, 23.8 will bring others things, but ACE doesn't communicate much about it.

If ACE's idea of a Throne War Sim is who can harvest the most and craft faster (just make sure you started passive training before everyone else) then I guess it's mission accomplished.

The issues brought up and the lack of solution by ACE (or any company) point out why this niche, genre, style of gaming do rather poorly in comparison to others. Glad some companies are trying to figure it out, but yet to see any of them deviate away from falling into the same design traps we've had for 20 years and why we now resort to throwing money at crowdfunded hype.

Edited by APE

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Posted (edited)

honestly they just need to make the higher tier resources a lot more scarce. Extend the re spawn time and make them drop less resources over all. That way you can rush high quality gear but if you aren't the only one there will always be conflict for these nodes sense you can only get so much out of it. Might be a wiser choice to go for lower tier items that better you chances of even getting gear. This will also make gathering enough resources faster for those looking for lower tier gear. 

 

Sorta would hate to see the only persistent element of the game constantly reset and I don't think the passive training is the core of the issue. Its the viability of lower gear. Why get it if you know you can just farm higher tier stuff from the start? Make Higher tier items less of a guarantee and more of a "do I risk it?" question players have to ask themselves.

Edited by silhaku

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I completely agree with your OP Yoink, thanks for bringing this up. This issue is compounded IMO by how powerful high end gear is compared to basic/white gear atm. It wouldn't be such a huge issue if the gear power curve was a lot more shallow how I was led to believe it would be from initial kickstarter FAQs. Soon discs will be craftable and we'll probably see the gear power curve and gap grow even more. Atm the tome catch up system appears to be the main answer the devs have for this, so I guess we'll have to see what exactly they have planned for that. 

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