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Vesperre

Unchangeable Major Discs- > BAD IDEA

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Posted (edited)

I've recently watched the April Update on Zybak TV and was surprised to hear that major disc were going to unchangeable.  JTodd and Blair reasoned that people could level up vessels just to test the various discs.  No offense JTodd/Blair, I love you guys, but THAT IS THE STUPIDEST IDEA I'VE EVER HEARD OF.   I don't really care if it was in SB but what a bloody time sink!  Not to mention if we finally find a combo we like (after weeks of testing) and you NERF the Disc (which is inevitable to something min/maxed) we can't take it out!  There goes that legendary vessel!  Also, if we want a certain disc and can't find it are we just to leave or Major Disc slots empty till we do??!!?

Ok, breathing, serenity now.....

Ok I understand the issue of hot swapping.  People could tailor their discs to ultimately be good at any given scenario.   But listen to your Player base, HARD COUNTERS ARE BAD,  the discs should not be so overpowered that the can totally omit a certain class (i.e. Molehunter/Jellyskin vs. Assassins).  Skill should trump all, not Discs or setups.  Here's what I suggest.

1)  Allow characters to swap Discs until 30 for free.  Let them test before making them commit.  Will people try to keep their characters at 29?  Probably, but give EXP for everything (crafting/harvesting/hunting)  Eventually, all PC (if they do anything) will have to hit 30.

or....

2) Make swapping possible however make it incur a tremendous cost (1,000,000 gold or 100 chaos embers).  If you want to do, go for it but you are not going to swap on a whim.  It's going to be to costly however, if you really want to get rid of a Major Disc you can.

or...

3)  Just nerf the Major Disc so they are not hard counters.  You made them OP now you to make a balanced game you'll have to walk it back.  One Disc should never trump skill or should pigeon hole you to only 1 scenerio.

Shadowbane is long dead and let's not commit the sins of the past.

Vesperre

 

    

Edited by Vesperre

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55 minutes ago, Vesperre said:

3)  Just nerf the Major Disc so they are not hard counters.  You made them OP now you to make a balanced game you'll have to walk it back.  One Disc should never trump skill or should pigeon hole you to only 1 scenerio.

Shadowbane is long dead and let's not commit the sins of the past.

Vesperre

 

    

only 1 counter disc is op. I don't see many players complaining about mudman or militant mage. Hot swapping to a counter disc is the thing that is op. If you are forced to choose then I don't see the problem. 

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It would be cool if there was a necromancy crafted consumable that would wipe a discipline, but definitely keep it difficult to attain (rare/expensive).

To me it would make sense that you shouldn't be able to swap majors especially with the unlocking of tiers  tied to the vessel's progression. With balance being an ongoing effort, and needing to keep some room for new disciplines to be added, the unavailability of swapping disciplines contributes to a regular demand for the necromancy craft as players will have a specific reason to replace their vessel, and this contributes to keeping graves nodes as important as any other resource to contest throughout each campaign.

 

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Is it just me or are the recent changes throwing a monkey wrench into crafting? This should be cause for concern considering harvesting and crafting are such a cornerstone of this game.  Can't get minor disciplines unless you're fighting warbands, but how in the hell are crafters supposed to start crafting without leveling first?  Not every player has multiple accounts or even the time to level multiple characters?

Personally some of the recent changes have bled a lot of fund out of the game.  Hardly any of the people I usually play with even log on anymore because you're so focused on changing things that people could work with instead of fixing what is broken.

I mean, why can't there be two sets of disciplines: one for crafting and one for combat?  It's not like the person is able to do a whole lot crafting wise unless they build up their passive skills, however this way they can at least go out and fight and play the game.

This will scare off newer players who are trying to learn.  Heck, with intermediate gear, a new player can barely hold their own against R4's in the teen levels.  They won't stand a chance against a warband, group or not.  While yes, they will have to work at their characters, build up the resources and get better, I fear that the learning curve will be far too steep for anyone looking to get into this game.

Want to make a hardcore game for hardcore players? Sure, fine. Do just that.  I just hope that select group of players has enough cash to keep your servers afloat as many rookies give up in frustration and move on to another game.  

I don't want to see this happen. Over the last several months I've had great fun playing with my guild.  Since April 2nd, many cannot even be bothered to log in because of the current state.  Many are hoping that the 6.0 patch will make the game playable again.  I can only hope for the same thing. Otherwise, not only will you scare off new players but you'll chase off the current players who have committed themselves to trying to make this game better.

But hey, don't take my word for it. I've only been beta testing MMO's for the last twenty years. I've seen this mistake so many times it simply gobsmacks me.  I know you have a vision, I respect that.  But hold on to it too tightly and you could lose what you've sought to build.  Start listening to the players, please.

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2 hours ago, lord_magnus said:

But hey, don't take my word for it. I've only been beta testing MMO's for the last twenty years. I've seen this mistake so many times it simply gobsmacks me.  I know you have a vision, I respect that.  But hold on to it too tightly and you could lose what you've sought to build.  Start listening to the players, please.

They've been listening since day 1.
Player feedback is what killed rooted combat.
Player feedback got us the race/class split.
Player feedback is why we have male Fae.
No more damage splitting, progression in general, active harvesting instead of being locked and zoomed.
But hey, don't take my word for it.


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Posted (edited)

I'm very much against the idea that you should ever need to reroll a character in an MMO in general however...

That's based on an idea that a character is a very permanent thing you put a lot of work into. That's not true in Crowfall, the entire vessel system demands rerolls. When you consider durability loss on vessels as an eventual mechanic as well as the probability of that there will be campaigns that restrict your ability to import vessels, you can start to think of it less as a character in the traditional MMO sense, and more of a customizable and replaceable piece of gear.

From that stance, if you want multiple major options you should just make a new vessel. You can keep both of them if you want options to work with. Especially when you consider your request to make it swappable for 1,000,000 gold is far more expensive than making and leveling even a top tier legendary vessel. 

Edited by Andius

"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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@Andius "Just make a new vessel" is fine so long as you have a free character slot. I personally have 6 slots of which all are used. Each has a different class. With this I need separate vessels for crafting and fighting (IMO). I choose my vessels race based upon the passive for that race matching each class. I also do this for crafting. How would I do these under this new change?.

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10 minutes ago, Incarnatus said:

@Andius "Just make a new vessel" is fine so long as you have a free character slot. I personally have 6 slots of which all are used. Each has a different class. With this I need separate vessels for crafting and fighting (IMO). I choose my vessels race based upon the passive for that race matching each class. I also do this for crafting. How would I do these under this new change?.

 

The entire system is designed for you to delete characters when you've obtained a better one.

Vessels will never be mass produced, which means the only time you'd ever not be in the market for an upgrade to any of those six slots is if that slot contained an absolutely perfectly rolled legendary, with every body part and every component of the philosopher's stone also a perfect legendary roll, with legendary optional components. The odds against obtaining such a vessel are extremely high, nearly to the point of impossibility. You will likely always be looking for an upgrade that will require you to delete a character.

Given the knowledge of this system, you have two options. Either delete them once you've acquired the vessel, discs,and sufficient item value to immediately sacrifice level to 30 for an upgrade, or reserve a floating slot specifically for leveling replacements and experimenting.

You are going to delete characters in crowfall quite frequently compared to other MMOs because the game is designed to force you to delete characters.

If you need a free slot for leveling, create a free slot. You're going to delete all of those characters eventually any way. If your needs are greater than the number of character slots you own,


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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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26 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

 

The entire system is designed for you to delete characters when you've obtained a better one.

Vessels will never be mass produced, which means the only time you'd ever not be in the market for an upgrade to any of those six slots is if that slot contained an absolutely perfectly rolled legendary, with every body part and every component of the philosopher's stone also a perfect legendary roll, with legendary optional components. The odds against obtaining such a vessel are extremely high, nearly to the point of impossibility. You will likely always be looking for an upgrade that will require you to delete a character.

Given the knowledge of this system, you have two options. Either delete them once you've acquired the vessel, discs,and sufficient item value to immediately sacrifice level to 30 for an upgrade, or reserve a floating slot specifically for leveling replacements and experimenting.

You are going to delete characters in crowfall quite frequently compared to other MMOs because the game is designed to force you to delete characters.

If you need a free slot for leveling, create a free slot. You're going to delete all of those characters eventually any way. If your needs are greater than the number of character slots you own,

I understand what you are saying in part. What I fail to understand is how one can craft (which requires certain major disciplines slotted) and be as effective as possible in pvp (where one requires other major disciplines that use the same slots as crafting)?

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6 minutes ago, Incarnatus said:

I understand what you are saying in part. What I fail to understand is how one can craft (which requires certain major disciplines slotted) and be as effective as possible in pvp (where one requires other major disciplines that use the same slots as crafting)?

You can't. Different types of characters use different types of disciplines and different gear bonuses. If you're expecting to make all of your own equipment, I encourage you to stop trying to do that. The game is designed to make it functionally impossible for you to equip yourself due to training requirements and character slots. Join a guild, make some relationships with some crafters. It would take ten total trained crafting characters to fully equip your combat character if you're looking for decent gear. Even if you had that many character slots, the amount of time it would take you to max out training in all of those crafts is extreme. In addition, for the vessel and jewelry you are incapable of farming these materials alone as they are sourced from motherlodes, which require at least two characters to harvest at all.

Your training lines prevent you from training to be good at everything for a reason. Even combat is this way. Your training requires you to focus on very specific types of armor or weapons.

You are not meant to be self sufficient in crowfall. Start making relationships with other players and focus on mastering a narrow range of roles rather than attempting to do all of them at once and doing all of them poorly. Trade what you're good at for things other people are good at, or consider joining an organized community that has an adequate split of these roles.


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2 hours ago, Incarnatus said:

@Andius "Just make a new vessel" is fine so long as you have a free character slot. I personally have 6 slots of which all are used. Each has a different class. With this I need separate vessels for crafting and fighting (IMO). I choose my vessels race based upon the passive for that race matching each class. I also do this for crafting. How would I do these under this new change?.

 

1 hour ago, Incarnatus said:

I understand what you are saying in part. What I fail to understand is how one can craft (which requires certain major disciplines slotted) and be as effective as possible in pvp (where one requires other major disciplines that use the same slots as crafting)?

Your two statements are self contradictory.  The second would only apply if accounts were locked to a single vessel, which they are not.

If you have 6 slots, you can make one vessel "as effective as possible in pvp" and with a different slot make a vessel that is "as effective as possible in crafting".

You have to choose how you want to use all six of your slots. How many combat focused vessels, vs how many crafting. 

 The reason your struggling is because your trying to push a rope.  No single account can do "everything".  

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Incarnatus said:

@Andius "Just make a new vessel" is fine so long as you have a free character slot. I personally have 6 slots of which all are used. Each has a different class. With this I need separate vessels for crafting and fighting (IMO). I choose my vessels race based upon the passive for that race matching each class. I also do this for crafting. How would I do these under this new change?.

So for me personally, I'm leaning toward campaigns with 0 vessel importation if they are offered and my group is down to do those with me. I'll probably have like, my EK guy and five open slots if I'm allowed to do that. Even supposing I only had one account from which I do both my combat and crafting (No way! The passive system punishes that too hard, I have a combat/gathering and crafting/gathering account) there is no way I would effectively fill five slots per campaign, even for say, a 4-week campaign.

I've noticed there are more than 6 slots in character selection though, they're just greyed out. Leads me to believe those will be an eventual account upgrade option. If you're looking to build up an army of geared vessels and take them with you to every campaign, then supposing you're allowed to play full importation campaigns and your group is down to do that... I'd buy more accounts and slots.

May be a bit pay-to-win but full importation campaigns are play-to-win (People who've played longer have a massive advantage beyond what their player experience should give them) and I don't mind them fleecing the hardcore grinder crowd for a bit of money. Full importation campaigns will be broken as crap anyway.

Edited by Andius

"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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I do think that for players who are currently testing this game will have a good idea which discs to use when the game goes live BUT if your a brand new player this will be a bad idea and could potentially frustrate them and they could leave. I did say on another post maybe add a short timer when you equip them so player can test them before them being locked in place?  

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Andius said:


I've noticed there are more than 6 slots in character selection though, they're just greyed out. Leads me to believe those will be an eventual account upgrade option. If you're looking to build up an army of geared vessels and take them with you to every campaign, then supposing you're allowed to play full 

 
 

Some of the Kickstarter packages offered extra character slots.   Mine shows +3 which is exactly the amount that are currently locked.  I do not think it's a coincidence :)

Character Slot
An additional character slot
3 Consume
Edited by calidor

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The problem I have with unchangeable major disciplines is that as a new player you have no way to see the recipes of the other crafting disciplines.  When I first started the only way I was able to learn how the crafting disciplines interact was from playing around with each one.  If we do move to unchangeable major discs we need to be able to at least see other recipes.

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Posted (edited)

I'm of the same opinion, locking combat majors is not going to play well. So long as effective group comp is based on having all of the roles covered, we should be able to set those roles from a non-combat space.

If Tom is our Mole Hunter, Richard is our Siege Engineer, and Harry is our Scout, having any one of those players be unavailable seriously gimps the team. If Steve can swap a disc & fill a gap, we're back in business.

IMO, the exploration slots should be changed to profession slots, exploration & crafting, and those are the slots that should be difficult or impossible to change.

So long as the game is built around hard counters and critical roles, changing combat majors should be little or no harder than swapping out gear, while in Temple or whatever passes for it in Dregs.

Don't gimp the entire team because someone has a life outside of the game.

Edited by VaMei
Tom hooligan and Harry :/

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14 minutes ago, VaMei said:

I'm of the same opinion, locking combat majors is not going to play well. So long as effective group comp is based on having all of the roles covered, we should be able to set those roles from a non-combat space.

If Tom is our Mole Hunter, Richard is our Siege Engineer, and Harry is our Scout, having any one of those players be unavailable seriously gimps the team. If Steve can swap a disc & fill a gap, we're back in business.

IMO, the exploration slots should be changed to profession slots, exploration & crafting, and those are the slots that should be difficult or impossible to change.

So long as the game is built around hard counters and critical roles, changing combat majors should be little or no harder than swapping out gear, while in Temple or whatever passes for it in Dregs.

Don't gimp the entire team because someone has a life outside of the game.

This is why Tom, Richard, and Harry have six character slots. They don't need to switch discs. They switch characters.


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3 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

This is why Tom, Richard, and Harry have six character slots. They don't need to switch discs. They switch characters.

So the answer is even more grind.

Grind more vessels, grind more gear, grind more discs, for characters that I'll only play when we're missing a particular discipline?

Hard pass.

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1 minute ago, VaMei said:

So the answer is even more grind.

Grind more vessels, grind more gear, grind more discs, for characters that I'll only play when we're missing a particular discipline?

Hard pass.

I mean why not remove leveling, vessels and gear entirely?

Then there won't be any grind.


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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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