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Vesperre

Unchangeable Major Discs- > BAD IDEA

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Just now, PopeUrban said:

I mean why not remove leveling, vessels and gear entirely?

Then there won't be any grind.

Strawman much?

What is wrong with having the discs craftable from farmable items, and let people change them out from temple.

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2 minutes ago, VaMei said:

Strawman much?

What is wrong with having the discs craftable from farmable items, and let people change them out from temple.

The whole point of majors, like characters, is that they are player investment in specific roles.

Per Todd, you're not supposed to make a knight tht's just a platform for whatever discs you want to run today.

You're supposed to make a knight/molehunter/necromancer or whatever the disc spread you've built for is.

Major discs were never supposed to be a gear system. They're a character customization system.


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People should start getting use to playing their classes without major disciplines, like right now.

Take the discs out of your vessel and try playing it.

The days of optimizing your disc for your playstyle whenever and however you want are just about over.

Whether that is good or bad for the game remains to be seen, but I'm skeptical they are going to reverse course on this one.

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1 minute ago, PopeUrban said:

Major discs were never supposed to be a gear system. They're a character customization system.

When some of those discs are more important than the vessel they're in, they're more than customization.

Blade Master is customization and is completely optional. Having a Plague Lord somewhere on the team is a big deal, but not make or break. Having a Siege Engineer available is not an option.

Either the game needs to move away from hard counters/enables, or we need to be able to choose.

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

The whole point of majors, like characters, is that they are player investment in specific roles.

Per Todd, you're not supposed to make a knight tht's just a platform for whatever discs you want to run today.

You're supposed to make a knight/molehunter/necromancer or whatever the disc spread you've built for is.

Major discs were never supposed to be a gear system. They're a character customization system.

If the need for some roles as a gear system happens, then those specifically should have minors that sorta fill the role, but which can be swapped.  

It's just a determination of what needs to be a temporary role, and what is a permanent one, that has to be sorted. 

Another option could be replacement of majors ONLY in EK, and that there be rules of locking/unlocking the same vessel multiple times.  Heck, it might be interesting if vessels ALWAYS lost their disciplines and levels (NOT XP, that stays) when moving between worlds.  Part of the reason to remain locked into a world, would be not wanting to lose your disks.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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1 minute ago, VaMei said:

When some of those discs are more important than the vessel they're in, they're more than customization.

Blade Master is customization and is completely optional. Having a Plague Lord somewhere on the team is a big deal, but not make or break. Having a Siege Engineer available is not an option.

Either the game needs to move away from hard counters/enables, or we need to be able to choose.

That is exactly why you're not supposed to hot swap discs.

The character, which includes discs and the talents invested in to those discs are supposed to be the most important determining factors as to what role you're playing at the moment.

Siege engineer isn't supposed to be a thing everyone has access to on a whim. Its supposed to be a thing people that invested in building a siege engineer *character* have access to, at the expense of using that slot for something else.


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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

That is exactly why you're not supposed to hot swap discs.

You keep insisting that this is the what it's supposed to be, but fail to address the *why*.

How does preventing people from filling critical roles, or forcing them to have standby characters that can fill those roles, make CF a better game?

Why is it bad to be able to cover the bases for missing players while you're building teams?

Edited by VaMei

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Posted (edited)

Ultimately it comes down to game design that is intended to punish people for making bad character build decisions. I don't like the concept but there are not a small number of folks who like the idea of players being screwed for making bad choices when building their toon.

Edited by DocHollidaze

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, VaMei said:

You keep insisting that this is the what it's supposed to be, but fail to address the *why*.

How does preventing people from filling critical roles, or forcing then to have standby characters that can fill those roles, make CF a better game?

Lack of options increases dependence on other players to provide those options.

It is the same logic behind preventing players from achieving mastry in every crafting type, and the same logic behind every build  having natural and deliberate counters.

Narrow roles require more people to fill them, which in turn increases the need for players to band together with others.

Major disciplines are not minor functionality bonuses, as you yourself have already said. They are major, potentially build shifting aspect of the character. How does it make sense to lobby for them to be hot swappable while still require people to lock in to race, class, and talent promotion class?

Minor disciplines are minor enhancements that in total comprise less than a quarter of what is offered by a major. They are much more in line with what is offered by gear and it thus makes sense to treat them as a bit less sticky.

 

You opinion on this matter seems to be "the more stuff I can do with less work" makes crowfall a better game.

I fundamentally disagree with your opinion. The more valuable individual characters (and thus the people who have invested in those characters) are, the stronger the game expresses the crucial interdependence that a good sandbox requires to function. The more roles a single person can fill with less effort, the less of a reason that person has to seek allies. That is devastating to the very fabric of a game in which the majority of the content is other players.

 

For you it's about "do we have a molehunter?"

For me its about "do we have Dave, our antistealth guy, or Ronald, our backup antistealth guy?"

 

The first is a question of whether or not you have some loot in a bank. The second is a question of whether or not you have people on hand that can do the job. Only one of these things causes you to actively seek out people that are enthusiastic and passionate about doing that job. Only one of these things organically creates functional, competitive, long lasting guilds and friendships out of necessity.

Those personal connections are crucial to the long term draw of a sandbox mmo. Without them the "content" dries up really fast. Its the difference between having a job and being valuable, or being some random guy with the right equipment on today.

Edited by PopeUrban

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There's a debate. Thank you.

I agree with your debate on things that an economy can get around on the scale of days or weeks. Don't have a woodworker, or a grave digger? Go buy what you need from someone else. Missing a key recipe? Go farm for it or find someone that will sell it to you. That's why I think the professions should all be permanent choices.

I disagree when it comes to enabling players to play over the next couple of hours because a key player may be missing. It's just one more thing that will empower large guilds over small ones; and this is coming from someone in a large guild.

Long term progress can require long term choices and fitting all the pieces to the puzzle. What we do tonight shouldn't.

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Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

Lack of options increases dependence on other players to provide those options.

It is the same logic behind preventing players from achieving mastry in every crafting type, and the same logic behind every build  having natural and deliberate counters.

Narrow roles require more people to fill them, which in turn increases the need for players to band together with others.

Major disciplines are not minor functionality bonuses, as you yourself have already said. They are major, potentially build shifting aspect of the character. How does it make sense to lobby for them to be hot swappable while still require people to lock in to race, class, and talent promotion class?

Minor disciplines are minor enhancements that in total comprise less than a quarter of what is offered by a major. They are much more in line with what is offered by gear and it thus makes sense to treat them as a bit less sticky.

 

You opinion on this matter seems to be "the more stuff I can do with less work" makes crowfall a better game.

I fundamentally disagree with your opinion. The more valuable individual characters (and thus the people who have invested in those characters) are, the stronger the game expresses the crucial interdependence that a good sandbox requires to function. The more roles a single person can fill with less effort, the less of a reason that person has to seek allies. That is devastating to the very fabric of a game in which the majority of the content is other players.

 

For you it's about "do we have a molehunter?"

For me its about "do we have Dave, our antistealth guy, or Ronald, our backup antistealth guy?"

 

The first is a question of whether or not you have some loot in a bank. The second is a question of whether or not you have people on hand that can do the job. Only one of these things causes you to actively seek out people that are enthusiastic and passionate about doing that job. Only one of these things organically creates functional, competitive, long lasting guilds and friendships out of necessity.

Those personal connections are crucial to the long term draw of a sandbox mmo. Without them the "content" dries up really fast. Its the difference between having a job and being valuable, or being some random guy with the right equipment on today.

Well originally they sold the whole idea of being able to swap vessels pre-configured with disciplines without having to level a pile of limited character slots. So a lot of frustration has been centered on how the change to leveling vessels messed with that dynamic. 

As to the greater point of why hot swapping (or any easier swapping mechanism) is handy: it creates a better competitive landscape. Siege Engineer is a great example of this - a discipline that serves one and only one real purpose in a narrow area and acts as the only real counter to various siege scenarios - hell its the only thing that makes a real siege plausible as long as defenders can put up trebs inside keeps. So siege engineer is something you always want available if you can have it. But the system as is intedned at this moment creates some “problems”.

First, since it’s general usefulness scope is so limited it basically causes you to spend an entire character slot to utilize it. You can make excuses about how discs are meant to be rare and focus a character blah blah blah but anyone who is serious about competing is gonna stick it on a secondary copy of their class and build a generally more useful copy for all other activities and stick something more useful in that disc slot.

Second, and the bigger issue imo, is that availability of personal changes day to day, and composition is super important to staying competitive. Reducing the burden to be able to fill a role increases our ability to swap between roles as needed and increases our ability to compete. When your solution to staying competitive is “no one can take days off” or you need to do 3x the amount of work to cover bases, you messed up and didn’t make a game for adults.

I used siege engineer as the most glaring example, but it’s the sort of case to be wary  of and worse offender. The other cases mainly fall into point 2 over point 1. I currently run 3 characters to maximize group composition, right now it means I mostly play Cleric. But previously it was Knight, and sometimes I pull out my DPS. But I’m a lunatic, I acknowledge that and don’t expect everyone to do that just so their groups can be competitive and feel like their having fun. But the harder it is to fill gaps, the less enjoyable the game is overall and the less people want to play - which pushes us closer and closer to repeating the mistakes of past and long dead games.

Finally, the original vessel system accounted for this with a decent compromise - it didn’t really all fall apart until leveling became a thing and we started stacking reasons to grind. Don’t get me wrong, talents are cool, but leveling is just annoying and decreasing the overall competitive atmosphere with its various knock on effects - especially as they make it more and more difficult to do so. I feel they really need to find a way to move leveling to the crow level and return vessels to swappable equipment.

Edit: I skipped talking about crafting, but that’s because I agree with most here that crafting interdependence is good. But crafting and combat are really not balanced against each other conceptually, they are drastically different types of activities with different constraints. Variety of combat characters and variety of crafting characters are not apple to apple comparisons. This can easily be seen by considering the past concerns about VIP training (that never occured) where multiple combat trees being trained was considered OP broken whereas training multiple crafting lines would just negate needing an alt account.

Edited by Duffy

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Posted (edited)

Everything you've just said would be a fantastic argument against having only one character slot, as for any player to fill more than one role they'd be required to purchase more accounts.

We have six character slots by default. That's six unique, dedicated roles per player. Every single person in your group has more roles available to them than a group can hold.

That is a reasonable amount of fallback variation for day to day play in my personal opinion.

"I can do six things" is MUCH different than "I can do everything"

A hot swappable system, by default, means everyone can do everything on the field of combat. That's a horrible way to design a sandbox mmo in my personal opinion.

Edited by PopeUrban

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

Everything you've just said would be a fantastic argument against having only one character slot, as for any player to fill more than one role they'd be required to purchase more accounts.

We have six character slots by default. That's six unique, dedicated roles per player. Every single person in your group has more roles available to them than a group can hold.

That is a reasonable amount of fallback variation for day to day play in my personal opinion.

"I can do six things" is MUCH different than "I can do everything"

A hot swappable system, by default, means everyone can do everything on the field of combat. That's a horrible way to design a sandbox mmo in my personal opinion.

If they got rid rid of the excessive grinding and leveling I’d be content with the slot solution and current disc plan.

However, it’s still trivially surpassed with alt accounts - which your top “tier” players will always “abuse” to their advantage. So saying something like “the slots limit you!” when in fact they do not stop me and my currently 3 accounts at all.  What they really do is block the average person and those with shallower pockets, once again putting a ceiling on competition that has nothing to do with actual in game ability, strategy, or organization. 

Edited by Duffy

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Duffy said:

If they got rid rid of the excessive grinding and leveling I’d be content with the slot solution and current disc plan.

However, it’s still trivially surpassed with alt accounts - which your top “tier” players will always “abuse” to their advantage. So saying something like “the slots limit you!” when in fact they do not stop me and my currently 3 accounts at all.  What they really do is block the average person and those with shallower pockets, once again putting a ceiling on competition that has nothing to do with actual in game ability, strategy, or organization. 

"but alt accounts exist" is an argument that could be used to say that the entire training system is pointless, that roles are pointless, and that classes and races are pointless.

"But anyone can buy enough accounts and be a master at anything!"

 

Alt accounts are inevitable, and alt accounts suffer the same system of limitations as single accounts in a linear fashion.

 

Having those limitations in place based upon player activity metrics like farming and xp  makes it *harder* and *more* work intensive for a person to use alt accounts for significant advantage over a single account player, not less.

It makes alt accounts *less* useful than if they were not there.

Edited by PopeUrban

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26 minutes ago, Duffy said:

If they got rid rid of the excessive grinding and leveling I’d be content with the slot solution and current disc plan.

However, it’s still trivially surpassed with alt accounts - which your top “tier” players will always “abuse” to their advantage.

That "excessive" grinding and leveling serves to make it not trivial to have numerous alt accounts full of viable characters.

I have several accounts but now that I need to vessel/level/gear them, several are inactive. The system actually seems to have worked to deter me from having a full set of crafters, harvesters, and combat characters.

Alts will always be an issue, but an individual player only has so much playtime.


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26 minutes ago, Jah said:

That "excessive" grinding and leveling serves to make it not trivial to have numerous alt accounts full of viable characters.

I have several accounts but now that I need to vessel/level/gear them, several are inactive. The system actually seems to have worked to deter me from having a full set of crafters, harvesters, and combat characters.

Alts will always be an issue, but an individual player only has so much playtime.

It really is a balancing act.  Give enough to do for one player, with one vessel, who has little time but adds a meaningful contribution, while at the same time putting enough effort is required to make passive training not lead to a proliferation of ALT accounts as the the go to power solution for many. The constant decay of gear, plus the time commitments for each role, puts an upper limit on how much a single player can do regardless of number of accounts.

I think the system ACE has now is pretty close. Might be a bit XP gathering heavy right now, but I did notice that the new scrolls from camps drop for 500 XP each that level pretty much everything, with more "XP for everything" to come.

I trust ACE to find the right balance, once they have all the dials in place to play with.

 

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Posted (edited)

I’m not confident it’s really a limiter, the quick campaign turn around and resets seems to be the limiter far more than anything else. Ultimately leveling is not that “hard” and I only need to do it a few times for those secondary accounts. Sure some campaigns may in the long run would limit such a thing, but the game is not just one campaign type.

But even if changes are slowing someone like me down and are perhaps intended to do so, those same changes are also affecting those unlike me. And what I’ve see is that such changes to affect those like me have a drastically larger affect on the average player. The changes aren’t closing the gap, their narrowing the audience window, and doing that is likely to have more debilitating affects on the game than nutjobs like me adding an alt account.

Because in the end you’re right, even if I have a character for everything, I can only spend so much time and I’m only one person. I think the way to really balance out these sort of games is not about limiting what activities you have access to, but insuring activities require dedicated play time. They have a good setup for that right now: PvP, gathering (let’s include PvE farming here), and crafting today all take time that means your not doing the other activities.

That’s a good setup, games start to suffer interdependency problems when you can passively do those tasks at the same time. If crafting was more “fire and forget”  so you go do a different activity while it’s crafting - we’d have a balancing problem between activities. And it sounds kind of like that’s the intent with factories, which in turn requires trying to balance crafting away from play time and instead mess with hoops or account limits.

I dunno, it sounds too much like their chasing their tails trying to make changes to limit things that in the end don’t really matter, at least as far as I can tell. Things that aren’t gonna really prevent most of what their trying to prevent and will shrink the competitive core of their game, and in the end all it’s doing is shrinking their overall prospective audience - and for a niche MMO that can be dangerous.

Edited by Duffy

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K here we go again....the carebears are grumbling...…"Is Crowfall to hard for the average Joe?"...………….MR JTodd(bless you heart)Mr Coleman and Thomas(protect the crafters god) Mr Blair..."Thanks for stopping by and Checking us out."(please watch the QnA for the context before you all start jumping down ma throat). That section in the vid SAYS IT ALL FOLKS......get with it or move on. its not to be a main stream wow game.(grammer Nazis's sharpen your knives).  This is a game of choices, choices like irl are not always geared towards your complete satisfaction. A lot of choice will involve hard decisions, and it may not always work they way (YOU the player) want. So carebear stare all you want, if your an average joe gamer this is prob not for you. If your looking to make a name for yourself, and willing to put at least SOME effort into the game welcome......You want fast action risk/reward go play an fps, you wanna make a difference in a game..stick it out this is going to be an epic ride.

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8 hours ago, Duffy said:

I used siege engineer as the most glaring example, but it’s the sort of case to be wary  of and worse offender. The other cases mainly fall into point 2 over point 1. I currently run 3 characters to maximize group composition, right now it means I mostly play Cleric. But previously it was Knight, and sometimes I pull out my DPS. But I’m a lunatic, I acknowledge that and don’t expect everyone to do that just so their groups can be competitive and feel like their having fun. But the harder it is to fill gaps, the less enjoyable the game is overall and the less people want to play - which pushes us closer and closer to repeating the mistakes of past and long dead games.

And that's the point. Locking vessels to particular disciplines is only going to work if one has a large enough player base. So this could become a downward spiral due to people leaving the game because there are not enough people to fill these essential slots. #Downwards-Spiral.

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