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shino

why Multi Accounting becomes Pay To win (passive skilling)

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Posted (edited)

i know at the moment we are in pre alpha  but i got to set this topic up  correct me if iam wrong

right now we just have two passive skill lines that just allow us to concentrate on mining,jobs or fighting / warrior, pathes

but the whole thing comes up when u use to buy two account one account concentrates itself on harvesting

while the other account concentrates on being an warrior for sieging

with the momentary passive skill system i myself in reallife become an crow

while my 2 accounts are the vessels , but that takes up to pay for the additional account

even if the developers give us the two other pathes back to skill

it will allows us as gamers to use an kind of game Breaking mechanik 

to have most of harvesting and job skills  for me it seems like an kind of unwilling pay to win modus operandi

if guilds start to use that out they can get an big bonus on bringing up the best vessels ,and the best gear in possible "no time"

just to dominate the servers and win 

shortime since th4ey started to skill and lvl up (don´t know how much using that since the beginning or after a wipe al the time)

i cant imagine(oh yes i can) what happens when they give us the two other pathes back how far that can go

for me i personally love the game and yet in pre alpha i can say its the best and only pvp siege game out

and i dont want to see that happens to the game. ,like i said correct me if iam wrong or having an paranoidal distortion sesure attack in pre alpha 🙂

cause i was reading about people talking about having multiple account´s ,on the battlefield that´s unfair and that all

because of the passive skillsystem ,i love the passive skillsystem because if i want to take an break and be offline for an month or too

the system skills me automaticly ,love u developers for that but it seems it has no abuse defence yet.

 

Delete this topic if it is unwanted or completly incorrect because of paranoidal distortion sesure attack in pre alpha 🙂

didn´t know if u should post it under bug section so i was putting it to general disussion

 

iam sorry for missing gramatikk and stuff but it´s late for me and i had no sleep 

so please be kind

 

 

 

Edited by shino

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Trust me Shino the game isn’t solo friendly. In order to be effective solo you would need more than just 2 accounts at the very least until you start hitting the caps on your passive skills. Even then you’re going to have spend massive amounts of time harvesting to get the best materials.

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Posted (edited)

I don't disagree with your premise, players with multiple accounts have some advantage over players with only one account. That said, players don't win, guilds win. Guilds win by getting the work done and putting well geared bodies on the field.

Loyalty issues aside, who do you think will do better, a guild of 10 players using 5 accounts each, or a guild of 50 players using one account each?

Critical mass is about 15 players, that's enough to cover all of the professions without overlap. Less than that and someone must be working on this rather than that. With more players than that, you have extra hands available to be farming wartribes, joining harvest groups, or harassing the enemy, without pulling tradesmen away from whatever they need to be doing.

If that's not convincing to you I'd have to wonder, how would you stop it? Anything you might do to stop one player from playing two accounts is easy to get around, and would get in the way of family/friends that want to play together.

Edited by VaMei
Proofreading ftw

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Posted (edited)

 

5 hours ago, shino said:

iam sorry for missing gramatikk and stuff but it´s late for me and i had no sleep 

so please be kind

Thats ok, I got your back.  Please feel free to use:

Quote

 

I know that, at the moment, we are in pre-alpha but I want discuss this topic: Two accounts leads to a pay to win (p2w) opportunity.

The primary reason that this is an issue is because of how the skills limit you to two different paths.  This means that having an extra account (or multiple accounts) gives you access to skill sets that allow you to heavily diversify your efforts. 

I think this shows itself most heavily in the case where you have two accounts.  With one account you are able to fully train towards harvesting/crafting and the other account towards being most effective in combat/sieges.

To me, having access to multiple accounts gives players and in particular, guilds, a considerable advantage in gearing up and gearing up quickly.  This streamlined access comes at the cost of extra accounts; wherein lies my issue.  They are using money, basically, to gear up quicker and dominate the server.  This hurts the smaller guilds and solo players.

I believe this is a game-breaking mechanic and should be discussed, if not addressed.

That being said, I do love the offline skill system.  Well done, developers!  It allows me to take a break from the game and still gain skills while not playing.  I appreciate this aspect of the game but think that it might need some protection from multi-account “abuse”.

Please move or remove this topic if I have posted it in the wrong place or people think it’s not a good topic for discussion.

 

Edited by Ble

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Posted (edited)

If you only allow a single IP address to own a single account, we'll just run VMs with VPNs and still multibox.   The only problem is you're likely removing multibox from anyone who wants to do it and giving it to a select few, due to the barriers to entry on making it work.

In order to enforce a policy like this you'd have to be able to monitor activity to try and attempt to discover who is multiboxing and even then, the final decision will be made based on circumstantial behavioral analysis and without hard proof.

Edited by Ble

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Posted (edited)

Multi-accounting is a consistent problem you're always going to have in any passive training game. However the advantages it offers in Crowfall are far less pronounced.

In EVE I could take 20+ mining characters and operate them all at the same time if my system can handle it due to how little player input is required for mining in EVE. That is assuming no use of macros. The game itself makes it that easy. I'd expect all of those accounts to be operating above 90% of the efficiency of a single mining ship piloted by a player running a single client. So with proper setup you're talking one harvester doing the work 18+ single account players. These kind of setups weren't even uncommon, I knew multiple people who ran them.

In Crowfall, the only way I could effectively mine with even 2 accounts is via the usage of macros since consistent input is required to do practically anything in this game. Their effectiveness would be based on the complexity of the macros as a maximum efficiency harvester is going to hit most of their crits and use skills to boost their efficiency. 

In a contest between 15 players running 15 accounts, and 10 players with access to as many accounts as they want but no macros, my money is going to be on the fifteen players every time assuming equal player skill etc. My confidence in the group with 1 account per player grows higher the larger of groups you are talking about to the point that I would say 100 vs. 100 the multi accounters would have no notable advantage in terms of their ability to win a head to head battle. 

So I think some effort should be made to control macros. Multi-accounting by itself won't greatly disrupt the game.

Edited by Andius

"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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11 hours ago, shino said:

if guilds start to use that out they can get an big bonus on bringing up the best vessels ,and the best gear in possible "no time"

This is true, is happening, and will continue to happen. There isn't anything they can do to stop people from having multiple accounts.

More accounts you have, the more you can passively train, the more alt characters doing various specialized roles.

As time passes this might be less of an issue as people complete one line and move on to another, but will likely always be an advantage.

It isn't P2W exactly as someone needs to devote time to doing all the various things. Ideally someone could craft, harvest, fight almost all the time, splitting your time between these means you aren't doing something else.

With harvesting and crafting being such a big deal and passive training allowing us to train these without effort and not online, it will impact the economy and guild performance.

This is just one issue. They are also planning to allow items from the cash shop to be traded for in-game goods. Which could end up being a RMT issue. Buy 5 VIP tokens, trade for 5 sets of purple gear (or whatever value). This turns into more cash ---> in-game power. For this you don't need to manage multiple accounts or have a lot of time, just money to burn.

Unless ACE changes their cash shop and passive system, I don't see these going away. You either accept it or don't. No game is perfect.

11 hours ago, shino said:

for me i personally love the game and yet in pre alpha i can say its the best and only pvp siege game out

Best is entirely subjective, but it is definitely not the only game with it.

DAoC (Live/Phoenix), WAR (Return of Reckoning), GW2, ESO, BDO, etc all have forms of siege. 

For Pre-Alpha, Crowfall's version is okay, but far from the "best" IMO. Nothing they've shown or said makes me believe it will top any of those other games as they seem to be just using the Shadowbane siege model which wasn't amazing either. My guess is Camelot Unchained will do it better if they pull off what they have planned, along with being able to have lots of players in a single battle.

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6 hours ago, Ble said:

If you only allow a single IP address to own a single account, we'll just run VMs with VPNs and still multibox.   The only problem is you're likely removing multibox from anyone who wants to do it and giving it to a select few, due to the barriers to entry on making it work.

In order to enforce a policy like this you'd have to be able to monitor activity to try and attempt to discover who is multiboxing and even then, the final decision will be made based on circumstantial behavioral analysis and without hard proof.

Single IP would mean that only one account per house, that would prevent me and the wife from playing.  If you wanted to go this route, you would want to limit one account being logged into a MAC address at a time, thus one account per network card/account.

Personally, if someone wants to spend money on another account to process materials, then that is their choice.  The rest fighter/harvesters will sell resources, fighter/crafter will buy tones of resources and harvester/crafters will sneak around trying not to get ganked.

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8 hours ago, VaMei said:

who do you think will do better, a guild of 10 players using 5 accounts each, or a guild of 50 players using one account each?

50 players with 70 accounts?

100 players with 150 accounts?

200 players with 300 accounts?

Anything is possible if people find the game that entertaining. It isn't either low players with high accounts or high players with low accounts.

I have multiple accounts myself, but likely won't use all of them. Barely bother logging in each to get trial rewards...

Fact remains that more accounts available to a player/guild/faction will provide an advantage and there isn't anything to stop it.

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49 minutes ago, Andius said:

Multi-accounting is a consistent problem you're always going to have in any passive training game. However the advantages it offers in Crowfall are far less pronounced.

In EVE I could take 20+ mining characters and operate them all at the same time if my system can handle it due to how little player input is required for mining in EVE. That is assuming no use of macros. The game itself makes it that easy. I'd expect all of those accounts to be operating above 90% of the efficiency of a single mining ship piloted by a player running a single client. So with proper setup you're talking one harvester doing the work 18+ single account players. These kind of setups weren't even uncommon, I knew multiple people who ran them.

In Crowfall, the only way I could effectively mine with even 2 accounts is via the usage of macros since consistent input is required to do practically anything in this game. Their effectiveness would be based on the complexity of the macros as a maximum efficiency harvester is going to hit most of their crits and use skills to boost their efficiency. 

In a contest between 15 players running 15 accounts, and 10 players with access to as many accounts as they want but no macros, my money is going to be on the fifteen players every time assuming equal player skill etc. My confidence in the group with 1 account per player grows higher the larger of groups you are talking about to the point that I would say 100 vs. 100 the multi accounters would have no notable advantage in terms of their ability to win a head to head battle. 

So I think some effort should be made to control macros. Multi-accounting by itself won't greatly disrupt the game.

There's a difference between having multiple accounts to use as needed and actively playing them all at once.

Having multiple accounts trained in various things to use as needed is an unavoidable advantage with this system.

Multi-Boxing or whatever where someone plays multiple accounts simultaneously will be interesting if someone pulls it off but I don't see it working well in this game. Not sure, but I'm guessing "botting" or using AFK like macros isn't allowed. But I always find these people funny to come across in games either way. 

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More people should win.  The tricky part is when people use spare accounts as spy's.  This is a common thing in Eve and is why corporations/Guilds need to be careful about who they let in.

 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Devonic said:

More people should win.  The tricky part is when people use spare accounts as spy's.  This is a common thing in Eve and is why corporations/Guilds need to be careful about who they let in.

Yep, and to me, this is one of many reasons why Dregs campaigns will be just plain better than Factions campaigns. There is no stopping people from joining your Faction for nefarious purposes. In the Dregs, it is up to you to control who joins your side. It is your own failure if you admit a spy to your guild. And you can kill spies in the Dregs rather than just looking at them and wishing they would go away.

Edited by Jah

IhhQKY6.gif

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, APE said:

Having multiple accounts trained in various things to use as needed is an unavoidable advantage with this system.

To an extent. I have a 2nd account, and purchased one for my fiance as well, so that we don't have to distract from combat training on our mains to be capable of crafting. I think having crafters as alts is going to be meta for most successful groups.

I don't think more than 2 accounts per person will be meta for successful groups. Crafters, gatherers, and combat mains are all most effective in vessels dedicated to that role with gear dedicated to that role. It's better to have people focus on the small number of tasks they can manage from one or two accounts than do everything very poorly.

Also in groups with enough variety in crafters (and a bit of redundancy due to changing activity levels) a single combat/gathering focused player who only runs one account is just as valuable as anyone else.

Edited by Andius

"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Andius said:

To an extent. I have a 2nd account, and purchased one for my fiance as well, so that we don't have to distract from combat training on our mains to be capable of crafting. I think having crafters as alts is going to be meta for most successful groups.

I don't think more than 2 accounts per person will be meta for successful groups. Crafters, gatherers, and combat mains are all most effective in vessels dedicated to that role with gear dedicated to that role. It's better to have people focus on the small number of tasks they can manage from one or two accounts than do everything very poorly.

Also in groups with enough variety in crafters (and a bit of redundancy due to changing activity levels) a single combat/gathering focused player who only runs one account is just as valuable as anyone else.

I don't believe individuals or groups need to have alt accounts, but the more options available the better up to a point. Passive training makes this more of an issue as it takes little effort to become efficient in crafting/harvesting, beyond actually having to do those tasks. Where other games require active craft 10000 items to advance, at least they require a bit more active progression. Still, time is finite so can only make so much use of various accounts.

Some seem to jump to the issue of players being able to do everything themselves, which isn't realistic. At least not on a large scale. To me the issue is when guilds, especially larger, have numerous alts giving them more opportunity.

Spying is a no brainer, but will be interesting to see if players plant random characters in different factions/campaigns to get whatever rewards that might require little effort like they do now.

A guild with a bunch of alts could send all their harvester accounts to one campaign in spring while they craft and wait for battle in winter on their other accounts in another campaign.

Bunch of "what if" not really knowing how the game will work, but I can see those that can't/won't run multiple accounts, VIP, or other outside influence things to find it a bit unfair. As I mentioned above, people will either accept it or not. Just hope ACE doesn't pretend it isn't a factor. 

Edited by APE

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Posted (edited)

It will be a factor, but I don't think it's a problem. I'm not even basing that on a "what if" scenario as much as I am current reality. With access to 4 accounts as a 2 gamer household with 2 accounts per person... I don't find myself using all four accounts available to me even when my fiance is not playing on hers. It's too much of a hassle. Everything I do can easily be consolidated to two characters and will be next skill wipe.

Currently I fight and mine on my main though I barely find myself mining of late. My crafter alt has logging and blacksmithing, though I have yet to blacksmith a single item, and my fiance's main is combat and runecrafting. So if I switched her runecrafting to runecrafting on the logging account I'd be using one and half of the account functions I have access to regularly. 

Edited by Andius

"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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1 hour ago, Andius said:

It will be a factor, but I don't think it's a problem. I'm not even basing that on a "what if" scenario as much as I am current reality. With access to 4 accounts as a 2 gamer household with 2 accounts per person... I don't find myself using all four accounts available to me even when my fiance is not playing on hers. It's too much of a hassle. Everything I do can easily be consolidated to two characters and will be next skill wipe.

Currently I fight and mine on my main though I barely find myself mining of late. My crafter alt has logging and blacksmithing, though I have yet to blacksmith a single item, and my fiance's main is combat and runecrafting. So if I switched her runecrafting to runecrafting on the logging account I'd be using one and half of the account functions I have access to regularly. 

Sounds like you might be using 4 accounts. ;)

I consider myself fairly casual and have multiple accounts that I can't handle. Likely only use 1-2 depending if I like the game.

Others have disclosed they have many more and plan to use them.

Guilds likely will be sharing (shhhh) crafters and what not.

I log in and put in as little effort as possible for the trial rewards and Live in general. Others play this game like it is launched.

What the average player does and what the more serious folks do will be different. 

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Posted (edited)

My four extra accounts are hidden.  Not even my guild knows the name of my alt accounts.  Once the game goes live I’ll build up some fake identities and use them for subterfuge.  The nature of accounts means they will get burned most of the time when I use them.  Some people are using CF for pay to craft alts but I’ll be playing pay to subvert a guild and try to get officer so I can steal the guilds assets.  

I need healthier hobbies. 

Edited by mandalore

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, APE said:

Sounds like you might be using 4 accounts. ;)

I consider myself fairly casual and have multiple accounts that I can't handle. Likely only use 1-2 depending if I like the game.

Others have disclosed they have many more and plan to use them.

Guilds likely will be sharing (shhhh) crafters and what not.

I log in and put in as little effort as possible for the trial rewards and Live in general. Others play this game like it is launched.

What the average player does and what the more serious folks do will be different. 

I've actually been playing this game fairly seriously. Gotten golds in both campaigns I took part it. I still will likely do the vast majority of what I do from my two accounts and would never have more if this was a one gamer household. It's just too much of a distraction from performing my primary roles well if I'm trying to fill too many roles at once.

Like I said, one person with one account hooked into a good guild that already has their crafting bases covered isn't really limiting how effective they can be. It's better for a guild to throw the good gathering/crafting gear at someone dedicated to a single gathering or crafting task than five sets at the same person with their playtime split five ways.

Edited by Andius

"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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7 minutes ago, Andius said:

I've actually been playing this game fairly seriously. Gotten golds in both campaigns I took part it. I still will likely do the vast majority of what I do from my two accounts and would never have more if this was a one gamer household. It's just too much of a distraction from performing my primary roles well if I'm trying to fill too many roles at once.

Like I said, one person with one account hooked into a good guild that already has their crafting bases covered isn't really limiting how effective they can be. It's better for a guild to throw the good gathering/crafting gear at someone dedicated to a single gathering or crafting task than five sets at the same person with their playtime split five ways.

You got gold on balance?  


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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