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SmokinJoker46290

Questions for the Devs!

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Well typically the true pvpers are more interested in being the underdog for the better fights.  If winning is the goal stacking sides is the way to do it.  If good fights and a competitive atmosphere is the goal maybe some should go chaos next campaign.

im quite happy on order and enjoy the uphill fights personallyjust need the vessel and gear to be at competitive level.  Getting there tho .

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18 hours ago, Chroma said:

He is also talking about the 420 siege on Thracia as documented by Monchiez. 5 days ago.

 

 

11 minutes ago, Thromdeir said:

Who's getting bent out of shape now? I'm having a great time. This is the most of a fight I've gotten out of Order all week and I'm just trying to pass the time while I'm at work.

"

So here's my question for the devs:

Player behavior indicates that winning is more rewarding than the actual rewards and reward scarcity isn't working.  Do you believe that this will continue to be a problem at scale and what other measures are you prepared to take in order to promote a healthy population and competition?

"

Now this is an interesting question. One I would like to get an answer to as well. 

Someone got bent out of shape and made @monchiezz pull his video down. 

I think in the faction campaigns that it will continue to be a problem as it is in most faction games. ACE may eventually have to put in some type of balancing/limitations for factions although that has other consequences. If there was a perfect solution to this problem then someone would've figured it out by now. 

I think politics will sort this out in the Guild/FFA campaigns (Dregs). You don't have the option to change sides in a faction campaign. We've some shifts in faction selection between campaigns but the overall player population is still too small for any significant changes. 

The old rule of thumb according to Ralph Koster was 4-5x your peak concurrency = total population. In more casual games it's 10x peak concurrency = total population. In Crowfall's case we are seeing maybe 300 players at peak but we know the game has 50,000 backers so we're still not even scratching the surface because it's a pre-alpha game. 

Quote

Once upon a time, the rule of thumb was to take your peak concurrency and multiply it by 4 or 5 to get an estimate of the userbase’s size. But in the more casual games, such as Kart Rider, you actually need to multiply by ten because of the brevity of session lengths.

https://www.raphkoster.com/2006/06/01/measuring-mmos/


Blazzen <Lords of Death>

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53 minutes ago, blazzen said:

I think politics will sort this out in the Guild/FFA campaigns (Dregs).

Why do you think that?  How many SB servers failed?  How many of the launch servers weren't destroyed by beta guilds smashing the non beta players into the dirt?  How many years did it take for servers to balance out and then how many fell to CN zergs or NA zergs?  I think SB showed that Uncle Bob is a persistent problem and that zergs will eventually consume servers. 

 

edit: even the emu sb servers are still just 200 man CN zergs fighting guilds a fraction of their pop. 

Edited by mandalore

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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1 hour ago, Chroma said:

Of course he thinks order is the most elite fighting force in the game, that's an opinion. We are certainly the best looking. How fragile is your ego?

Opinions are fine. If he wants to claim he's the best that is fine too. Once he starts making false claims about other people he can expect to be called out on it.


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2 hours ago, Chroma said:

Nobody is bent out of shape, trolly McJunior. I'm having more fun than you are. Being fourth the replies.

Ble, you dont see the current population spread as a problem. Got it, say no more.

I do have a questionable mentality but it doesnt include participation ribbons. Healthy population could only mean one thing and that's pretty clear.

I didn’t make any arguments toward current population spread.  I don’t see it as a problem though, I see it as an inevitability.  There’s more to the effects of population on wins than numbers, or else Chaos would have been victorious a couple CWs ago.

 

Population spread is not something I can control.  It will ebb and flow by CW and as guilds rise and fall.  When HoA was order I never once thought about it.  I only seek to win.  I used everything in my power to help my guild and faction win, same as I do now.  That’s what I’m supposed to do, that’s what I can control.  

 

Im loyal to the pursuit of victory.  Every time.

Edited by Ble

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53 minutes ago, mandalore said:

Why do you think that?  How many SB servers failed?  How many of the launch servers weren't destroyed by beta guilds smashing the non beta players into the dirt?  How many years did it take for servers to balance out and then how many fell to CN zergs or NA zergs?  I think SB showed that Uncle Bob is a persistent problem and that zergs will eventually consume servers. 

 

edit: even the emu sb servers are still just 200 man CN zergs fighting guilds a fraction of their pop. 

The hope is that the campaigns having a win condition and then a reset will prevent the servers from getting stagnant like they did in both SB and DF.

The win condition and resets don't matter much right now when it's the same ~ 300 or so people playing though.

#prealpha. 

 


Blazzen <Lords of Death>

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1 hour ago, blazzen said:

The hope is that the campaigns having a win condition and then a reset will prevent the servers from getting stagnant like they did in both SB and DF.

The win condition and resets don't matter much right now when it's the same ~ 300 or so people playing though.

#prealpha. 

 

I'm not worried about the servers resetting, I'm worried about compounding wins from previous victories killing anything with imports and I'm worried about people losing and what happnes when they are faced with the same guilds they just lost to or being forced to wait for a different CW. 

Edited by mandalore

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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2 hours ago, mandalore said:

I'm not worried about the servers resetting, I'm worried about compounding wins from previous victories killing anything with imports and I'm worried about people losing and what happnes when they are faced with the same guilds they just lost to or being forced to wait for a different CW. 

imports would not matter as much if ACE shallowed out the power curve for gear/levels/vessels to make player skill the key to determining fights. Until then, there is nothing to stop the people you are referring to above, from just finding a different game. 

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2 minutes ago, mystafyi said:

imports would not matter as much if ACE shallowed out the power curve for gear/levels/vessels to make player skill the key to determining fights. Until then, there is nothing to stop the people you are referring to above, from just finding a different game. 

Or they could just play a campaign with no imports?


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14 minutes ago, Jah said:

Or they could just play a campaign with no imports?

I guess they could, but wouldn't exclusively playing no import campaigns basically turn this game into a subpar MOBA for those players? Little reason to export, use EK's, interact with in-game economy, ect... Why shouldn't ace shallow the power curve? This would severely inhibit players ability to import power vice acquiring it in that campaign. In addition it would not stratify the player base. Personally, I would prefer player skill to have the most weight in pvp, not how long I grinded pve. 

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18 minutes ago, mystafyi said:

I guess they could, but wouldn't exclusively playing no import campaigns basically turn this game into a subpar MOBA for those players?

I think the game would still have more in common with an MMORPG than a MOBA, even with no-import campaigns.

I'm ok with making the power curve more shallow, though.


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To make the curve shallower you need to make the game actually take skill, its already pretty shallow, go any shallower then right now and we'll hit the lake bed 


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23 minutes ago, Jah said:

I think the game would still have more in common with an MMORPG than a MOBA, even with no-import campaigns.

I'm ok with making the power curve more shallow, though.

I mean im okay either way, i dont see any harm in a more shallow power curve, but after a certain point you want the harvesting and crafting 5o be worth it in the end. If you make a power curve to shallow it could make all the effort involved not seem necessary.

 

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22 minutes ago, Tyrannicall said:

I mean im okay either way, i dont see any harm in a more shallow power curve, but after a certain point you want the harvesting and crafting 5o be worth it in the end. If you make a power curve to shallow it could make all the effort involved not seem necessary.

Yep, and there is a bit of contradiction between wanting imports but not wanting them to matter.

Finding the right balance where harvesting, crafting, and the economy actually matter, but without mattering too much, is tricky.


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1 hour ago, Jah said:

Or they could just play a campaign with no imports?

Assuming there will always be a fresh campaign of the type they want, that doesn’t have the enemies that just smashed them, that is in there desired time zone and that isn’t too long of a wait then sure.  Some guilds will probably just get deleted when they lose, that’s expected.  Others might leave if they have to wait even a week or longer for that fresh server.  Waiting for the next campaign isn’t always going to be the right answer and it will, sometimes, be the worst solution to the problem.  

 

If the only solution to Uncle Bob is just wait for a no import selection then there is no real solution to uncle Bob.  Inevitably it will create a caste system of guilds who have compounding wins for months or even years and that barrier will be extreme when new players are looking at the game.  

 

EvE is a perfect example of how hard it is to step into a new game where there are constantly accruing victories and losses.  How many of us have looked at EvE and then decided nope, too hard to get into now that’s it’s so established. 

Edited by mandalore

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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1 hour ago, mystafyi said:

Personally, I would prefer player skill to have the most weight in pvp, not how long I grinded pve. 

Believe many would but so far seems ACE is going hard in the other direction. When they went with ray casts, forgiving front cone attacks, and plenty of fire n forget aoe, seems like they tossed "skill" out the window. Aim, physics, or heck even group tactics seem pretty low tier. Play whatever options actually work and aren't trash, stack on a target, hit all the big number abilities... yawn.

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12 hours ago, Thromdeir said:

Whatever you need to tell yourself to sleep at night.

K Throm, why would you run to a cliff when a winterzerg shows up? Wouldn't possible be the safety of 40% dmg taken max from falling.... try using logic instead of just talking trash.

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5 hours ago, Jah said:

Or they could just play a campaign with no imports?

Consider that for a moment. You are a new player and just finished grinding up a character plus gear, took a colossal ass kicking and now have to decide if it's worth doing all over again so you can be have a shot at being competitive in the next campaign. Think about small fledgling guilds that have to gear 7 or 8 crafters plus characters. There is an entire entourage that comes with a new campaign. I think we take it for granted and make it work because we have been through it many times and have a system down for it.

 I'm going to wager a significant number of players will put the game down and move on to something that is easier to access and that's bad for us. 

As for shallow curve, hell yeah. Right now it's actually not too bad with goggles out and gear semi suspended at the blue ish level due to low pips on crafters

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2 minutes ago, Chroma said:

Consider that for a moment. You are a new player and just finished grinding up a character plus gear, took a colossal ass kicking and now have to decide if it's worth doing all over again so you can be have a shot at being competitive in the next campaign. Think about small fledgling guilds that have to gear 7 or 8 crafters plus characters. There is an entire entourage that comes with a new campaign. I think we take it for granted and make it work because we have been through it many times and have a system down for it.

 I'm going to wager a significant number of players will put the game down and move on to something that is easier to access and that's bad for us. 

As for shallow curve, hell yeah. Right now it's actually not too bad with goggles out and gear semi suspended at the blue ish level due to low pips on crafters

Crowfall is attempting to solve that issue with campaign resets and rule variants. People can choose a no import campaign for more of a fresh start and more of an even playing field. Others will prefer import campaigns so they can bring gear with them.

If these small fledgling guilds are confronting the fact that they can't beat the better organized, more experienced, and larger guilds, they will also have the option of joining faction campaigns where they are less likely to face the top competitors. And the pain of losing won't be as bad, as faction campaigns are intended to be less punishing to the losing sides. After building up for a while a fledgling guild might eventually feel ready to try again in the more hardcore campaigns.

I have no doubt that Crowfall will lose players who become demoralized by losses, but there are number of planned mechanics that are attempts address that. And I am sure they will keep trying new ideas with new campaign variants to try to solve the problem even better. Ultimately "play to crush" isn't for everyone. Hopefully it works for enough people.


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4 hours ago, Jah said:

Yep, and there is a bit of contradiction between wanting imports but not wanting them to matter.

Finding the right balance where harvesting, crafting, and the economy actually matter, but without mattering too much, is tricky.

I have been thinking of late that I would like to see a campaign with no imports in spring to see how that would play out. 

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