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Xanderxavier

Change Character Discipline slots into separate combat &...

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Posted (edited)

Ok so i played enough now to get a handle on how it works, and yeah got a bit of a concern, your limiting folks to 6 character slots, and atm your making us choose between a char good at combat or good at crafting, well that sucks comes to mind, each char should have 2 combat major discipline slots and 2 crafting major discipline slots, not just 2 slots to share between both, it means those chars I spent my time lvling and turning into crafters are now nothing but pretty lawn ornaments if I ever want to use them for anything but crafting, thanks.... yeah bad design, if you had unlimited char slots then sure make people split em if you want frankly even then you shouldnt but hey its bypassable, but limited char slots dont be douches, you shouldnt have to sacrifice multiple char slots to crafting and make the characters have a disadvantage vs those who became combat only, this seriously discourages the average player from engaging in the crafting system, which is a bad thing, a tiny number of crafters and few gatherers will end up with a horrid economy of high priced crud that only a few big guilds will be able to afford as a matter of course forcing everyone else to be equipped with lousy gear all the time, and no one likes dying cos their gear sucks cos they cant do crafting cos the game itself doesn't allow you to do so alongside combat in the 1st place.

Frankly your whole system is in need of changing, neither minor explore or major combat disciplines  should overlap with crafting, and visa versa, you shouldnt have to sacrifice your ability to craft to fight or visa versa or frankly gather to craft etc also, given your extremely limited char slots , if this stays as is its heading for a bad road come release.

Edited by Xanderxavier
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Xanderxavier said:

Ok so i played enough now to get a handle on how it works, and yeah got a bit of a concern, your limiting folks to 6 character slots, and atm your making us choose between a char good at combat or good at crafting, well that sucks comes to mind, each char should have 2 combat major discipline slots and 2 crafting major discipline slots, not just 2 slots to share between both, it means those chars I spent my time lvling and turning into crafters are now nothing but pretty lawn ornaments if I ever want to use them for anything but crafting, thanks.... yeah bad design, if you had unlimited char slots then sure make people split em if you want frankly even then you shouldnt but hey its bypassable, but limited char slots dont be douches, you shouldnt have to sacrifice multiple char slots to crafting and make the characters have a disadvantage vs those who became combat only, this seriously discourages the average player from engaging in the crafting system, which is a bad thing, a tiny number of crafters and few gatherers will end up with a horrid economy of high priced crud that only a few big guilds will be able to afford as a matter of course forcing everyone else to be equipped with lousy gear all the time, and no one likes dying cos their gear sucks cos they cant do crafting cos the game itself doesn't allow you to do so alongside combat in the 1st place.

Frankly your whole system is in need of changing, neither minor explore or major combat disciplines  should overlap with crafting, and visa versa, you shouldnt have to sacrifice your ability to craft to fight or visa versa or frankly gather to craft etc also, given your extremely limited char slots , if this stays as is its heading for a bad road come release.

You are describing exactly what has always been the intended design. The Kick starter packs even came with a +3 character slots bonus for early participants. 

If you don't like it, that's too bad, because it's what has been sold to us all for years. Looks like you want a different game than what was promised and is being built.

Oh and you might want to tone down the use of disparaging language calling the devs "douches" on your very first post if you want anyone to pay attention to your opinions.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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51 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

You are describing exactly what has always been the intended design. The Kick starter packs even came with a +3 character slots bonus for early participants. 

If you don't like it, that's too bad, because it's what has been sold to us all for years. Looks like you want a different game than what was promised and is being built.

Oh and you might want to tone down the use of disparaging language calling the devs "douches" on your very first post if you want anyone to pay attention to your opinions.

 

It wasn't intended in the sense of calling the dev's "douches" merely in the affectation of the more general sense that the system is likely to elicit some expletives from new players now and in the distant future, and no decent design plan makes it to release without adjustments, theorycrafted systems often require adjustment to real world conditions, its easy to sit there and theorycraft a design in isolation that seems to work well in theory, but much like no battleplan survives 1st contact with the enemy, few if any game design documents escape unscathed from actual gameplay testing, nor is a system detailed in kickstarter sacrosanct and unassailable to improvement, perhaps in reply you'd like to address the issues outlined with regards to the crafting system and economy in the long run, and how you think this system could lead to something otherwise it seems your only counter argument is that's what was intended, this does not absolve it from the possibility of improvement before obvious problems develop, i doubt the majority of backers most of which wont touch the game or the forums for that matter till after release care much for the original design of intended systems but rather more the overall engagement, entertainment and longevity of the game post-release, indeed the whole point of testing is to identify and address issues.

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Posted (edited)
48 minutes ago, Xanderxavier said:

It wasn't intended in the sense of calling the dev's "douches" merely in the affectation of the more general sense that the system is likely to elicit some expletives from new players now and in the distant future, and no decent design plan makes it to release without adjustments, theorycrafted systems often require adjustment to real world conditions, its easy to sit there and theorycraft a design in isolation that seems to work well in theory, but much like no battleplan survives 1st contact with the enemy, few if any game design documents escape unscathed from actual gameplay testing, nor is a system detailed in kickstarter sacrosanct and unassailable to improvement, perhaps in reply you'd like to address the issues outlined with regards to the crafting system and economy in the long run, and how you think this system could lead to something otherwise it seems your only counter argument is that's what was intended, this does not absolve it from the possibility of improvement before obvious problems develop, i doubt the majority of backers most of which wont touch the game or the forums for that matter till after release care much for the original design of intended systems but rather more the overall engagement, entertainment and longevity of the game post-release, indeed the whole point of testing is to identify and address issues.

This is the 4th revision I believe to the passive system, disciplines, races/classes and its relation to vessels, and quite frankly is the best one so far. 

The changes slated to happen are locked majors, with having to spend talent points into the individual powers within the majors. 

It has always been a goal, that you can screw up your vessel, and have to make a new one. And that you must make a choice between crafting and combat vessels.  

Many of us happen to like, and backed because of that approach.  It is not going to fundamentally change at this point. 

EDIT: (Bold)

The crafting system and economy is supposed to run by discrete individuals, and groups of individuals, trading the skills and abilities they have focused on, with other individuals, and groups of individuals, that have different skills and abilities, just like any other real economy does.  It's really rather simple.  

The AVERAGE player should be discouraged from the crafting system if it doesn't interest them.  It's supposed to be driven by the achiever players who are bent on achieving crafting and economic dominance in the game. 

You have 6 slots currently.  You can be capable at one crafting skill in a reasonable amount of time, become an "expert" in a few months, and maximise through gear and vessel upgrades in that time.   You can use a single vessel to do two crafting skills moderately well if you pick the right race and slot two disciplines.  That leaves you 5 slots for building a variety of combat vessels. If you happen to really NEED to devote all your time to crafting, and being good at it, then buy a second account.  But at that point you are far past being the average player. Even with a multitude of accounts, one human simply won't have the time to do everything.

What is not supposed to happen, is for individual players to be able to do everything for themselves.

That again, is a different game.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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1 hour ago, Xanderxavier said:

It wasn't intended in the sense of calling the dev's "douches" merely in the affectation of the more general sense that the system is likely to elicit some expletives from new players now and in the distant future, and no decent design plan makes it to release without adjustments, theorycrafted systems often require adjustment to real world conditions, its easy to sit there and theorycraft a design in isolation that seems to work well in theory, but much like no battleplan survives 1st contact with the enemy, few if any game design documents escape unscathed from actual gameplay testing, nor is a system detailed in kickstarter sacrosanct and unassailable to improvement, perhaps in reply you'd like to address the issues outlined with regards to the crafting system and economy in the long run, and how you think this system could lead to something otherwise it seems your only counter argument is that's what was intended, this does not absolve it from the possibility of improvement before obvious problems develop, i doubt the majority of backers most of which wont touch the game or the forums for that matter till after release care much for the original design of intended systems but rather more the overall engagement, entertainment and longevity of the game post-release, indeed the whole point of testing is to identify and address issues.

 

Sure, things change through testing and dev, not doubt,  but core foundational pillars of the game should not be expected to change.

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So there are runes you can put on gear that make crafting/gathering more effective. Certain attributes and racial bonuses are optimal for crafters of different sorts.

Essentially what this means is that your optimal blacksmith will be a separate vessel geared and stated differently than your optimal combat character, even of the same race/class. Even your optimal woodworker will be a seperate class/race than your optimal blacksmith.

I think the merits of this system are certainly arguable, but they're pretty invested in it at this point. The upside if you hate this system is:

A. Any combat character can be an effective but suboptimal gatherer without losing any combat effectiveness.
B. Crafters are ideally put on their own accounts separate your combat main, which means they would require a new vessel anyway. And being a crafter is a very optional style of play that you do NOT have to engage in to be fully effective if you belong to a good guild.


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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

This is the 4th revision I believe to the passive system, disciplines, races/classes and its relation to vessels, and quite frankly is the best one so far. 

The changes slated to happen are locked majors, with having to spend talent points into the individual powers within the majors. 

It has always been a goal, that you can screw up your vessel, and have to make a new one. And that you must make a choice between crafting and combat vessels.  

Many of us happen to like, and backed because of that approach.  It is not going to fundamentally change at this point. 

EDIT: (Bold)

The crafting system and economy is supposed to run by discrete individuals, and groups of individuals, trading the skills and abilities they have focused on, with other individuals, and groups of individuals, that have different skills and abilities, just like any other real economy does.  It's really rather simple.  

The AVERAGE player should be discouraged from the crafting system if it doesn't interest them.  It's supposed to be driven by the achiever players who are bent on achieving crafting and economic dominance in the game. 

You have 6 slots currently.  You can be capable at one crafting skill in a reasonable amount of time, become an "expert" in a few months, and maximise through gear and vessel upgrades in that time.   You can use a single vessel to do two crafting skills moderately well if you pick the right race and slot two disciplines.  That leaves you 5 slots for building a variety of combat vessels. If you happen to really NEED to devote all your time to crafting, and being good at it, then buy a second account.  But at that point you are far past being the average player. Even with a multitude of accounts, one human simply won't have the time to do everything.

What is not supposed to happen, is for individual players to be able to do everything for themselves.

That again, is a different game.

The average player will not be interested in actually doing everything themselves, however I do not think it unreasonable to expect that's one purchase price for a MMORPG game should entitle one to experience the majority of that games content within reason (such as 1 char of each race(not both m and f you have to choose), at least 1 of each major class type)) without having to engage in extrodinary measures (as in sacrificing a viable character build you've invested time and effort in just to try another class) , the great grand-daddy for many such mmos, Ultima Online, also encouraged specialised crafting classes, but it provided a total of 7 possible major skills, allowing a wide variety of variation, and allowing ones "crafting character's" to cover a wider variety of content, it also allowed for more variations in combat, the problem I foresee is perhaps by classifying different skills into different "grades" you severely limit ones ability to choose playstyle, there is the old addage jack of all trades master of none, it seems its one or nothing in the current design, they at least get to dabble in the various experiences, atm, the purchase price of the game entitles one to what I consider to small a sliver of the content before it requires you to doll out more.

Whatever the intended design this is the impression the game gives to a "new player", and as new players are vital to the longevity of mmos and the enjoyment of existing users from a healthy playerbase as well, I humbly suggest more be done to address such concerns, or risk affecting the future viability when its become to late to change it, whilst the title of the post aside im not suggesting that is the only solution to the problem, but if I a backer who plumped hundreds of USD (i got a large keep to) as a new player spot this as an obvious issue I doubt random player x will be awfully enthused about the game once they work it out also, and that's a problem in and of itself worth of at least trying to address.

Edited by Xanderxavier
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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, Xanderxavier said:

The average player will not be interested in actually doing everything themselves, however I do not think it unreasonable to expect that's one purchase price for a MMORPG game should entitle one to experience the majority of that games content within reason (such as 1 char of each race(not both m and f you have to choose), at least 1 of each major class type)), the great grand-daddy for many such mmos, Ultima Online, also encouraged specialised crafting classes, but it provided a total of 7 possible major skills, allowing a wide variety of variation, and allowing ones "crafting character's" to cover a wider variety of content, it also allowed for more variations in combat, the problem I foresee is perhaps by classifying different skills into different "grades" you severely limit ones ability to choose playstyle, there is the old addage jack of all trades master of none, it seems its one or nothing in the current design, they at least get to dabble in the various experiences, atm, the purchase price of the game entitles one to what I consider to small a sliver of the content before it requires you to doll out more.

Whatever the intended design this is the impression the game gives to a "new player", and as new players are vital to the longevity of mmos and the enjoyment of existing users from a healthy playerbase as well, I humbly suggest more be done to address such concerns, or risk affecting the future viability when its become to late to change it, whilst the title of the post aside im not suggesting that is the only solution to the problem, but if I a backer who plumped hundreds of USD (i got a large keep to) as a new player spot this as an obvious issue I doubt random player x will be awfully enthused about the game once they work it out also, and that's a problem in and of itself worth of at least trying to address.

Nothing is preventing you from changing your choices.

You can play any number of races and classes, simply delete the vessels your not playing. You get unlimited numbers of free vessels, and maintain all passive training between them, so you can experiment endlessly if you like. You just can't have every option available all at the same time.  This is not League of Legends where you buy champions and constantly expand your library. 

To be honest, after watching the forums for several years, you are perhaps only the second person I can recall who has said they thought the number of vessel slots was too restrictive. (With the exception of those that use them for bank space because bank space is a problem)

As I said above, one of the kickstarter bonus awards was +3 vessel slots.  Who says that ACE won't sell additional slots in the future?  I can totally see that as being something to add in later for those interested in a massive library of vessels.  Pay 10$, get another vessel slot, or maybe even earn one as a reward for winning a campaign.

But now you have moved the goalposts for this conversation from, "every vessel should be able to combat and craft", to "I want more vessel slots".

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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Asking you to allocate one character to crafting, and to equip that character for crafting, when you can only realistically train one crafting line at release training time scales for a very long time is entirely reasonable.

The game is not designed for you to be able to do everything. It is designed to ensure you can't do everything so that you're required to group and trade with other players.

Unlike other games, crowfall is designed at a basic level to require you to delete characters as a natural part of progression, as you replace old vessels with new and better ones. Making it easy for you to delete failed experiments and try new ones is why white vessels are free and can be leveled extremely quickly. If you created a character without using a crafted item to do it you are going to delete that character.


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I respond to changes in information and constructive criticism, perhaps as a regular forum user the information from the ks remains ever fresh in your mind but frankly I backed this years ago in KS and havent exactly refreshed my memory on it often since as I waited for it to be more mature, and frankly im busy, the goal of my post was not disparage the game but ensure its success by exposing for considering an angle that those currently attached to it are likely to "close" to see, my initial suggestion was merely the most obvious solution to an issue I perceived, there are vast array of ways to approach such issues, given time finding one that both matches the principles of the game as you see it and broadly satisfies addressing the issue should be possible, the post stated the issue freshest on my mind having now put some hours into playing the game as a new player, ie the kind of thing a new player with no prior history with the game would most notice.

 Personally being a former student for longer then most and frankly a former computer bum due to coming out of college at a bad time for recruiting I have somewhere between 50,000-100,000 hours of gaming experience (not all in mmos, probably about 40% in mmos), and then I taught myself various fields of game design and now work as an independent game developer mostly contracting to other studios but hey, so I dont have nearly as much time to play in recent years but I still try to keep myself abreast of most major and the odd minor but more interesting titles, still you'd be hard pressed to find many individuals with my experience game wise, more heads do not always make for a better view, as most game developers simply havent played games enough to spot potential problems that arise long term, nor most enthuastic mmo gamers for that matter.

Based on the replies on this post I see that some of the issues I've seen stem from the unique design, so adjusted my focus accordingly, dogedly sticking to the same viewpoint despite fresh evidence to the contrary is not my style so i freel free to adjust the general tone as appopriate, it doesnt mean theres not an issue of some kind awaiting the proper address, even if in the end the true issue is that the game fails to explain its unique approach adequately to new players as a matter of course, leading to misleading un-realised expectations, that's still an issue in and of itself, i only discovered the whole "vessels" thing from a random comment someone made in game afterall.

 

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Xanderxavier said:

I respond to changes in information and constructive criticism, perhaps as a regular forum user the information from the ks remains ever fresh in your mind but frankly I backed this years ago in KS and havent exactly refreshed my memory on it often since as I waited for it to be more mature, and frankly im busy, the goal of my post was not disparage the game but ensure its success by exposing for considering an angle that those currently attached to it are likely to "close" to see, my initial suggestion was merely the most obvious solution to an issue I perceived, there are vast array of ways to approach such issues, given time finding one that both matches the principles of the game as you see it and broadly satisfies addressing the issue should be possible, the post stated the issue freshest on my mind having now put some hours into playing the game as a new player, ie the kind of thing a new player with no prior history with the game would most notice.

 Personally being a former student for longer then most and frankly a former computer bum due to coming out of college at a bad time for recruiting I have somewhere between 50,000-100,000 hours of gaming experience (not all in mmos, probably about 40% in mmos), and then I taught myself various fields of game design and now work as an independent game developer mostly contracting to other studios but hey, so I dont have nearly as much time to play in recent years but I still try to keep myself abreast of most major and the odd minor but more interesting titles, still you'd be hard pressed to find many individuals with my experience game wise, more heads do not always make for a better view, as most game developers simply havent played games enough to spot potential problems that arise long term, nor most enthuastic mmo gamers for that matter.

Based on the replies on this post I see that some of the issues I've seen stem from the unique design, so adjusted my focus accordingly, dogedly sticking to the same viewpoint despite fresh evidence to the contrary is not my style so i freel free to adjust the general tone as appopriate, it doesnt mean theres not an issue of some kind awaiting the proper address, even if in the end the true issue is that the game fails to explain its unique approach adequately to new players as a matter of course, leading to misleading un-realised expectations, that's still an issue in and of itself, i only discovered the whole "vessels" thing from a random comment someone made in game afterall.

 

I think what I would have to say to that, is you perceived correctly that there are limitations, but incorrectly that it is deemed to be a problem with the design.  Rather, it is a major goal of it.

Many of us here consider that many modern MMO games are too homogenized in design, and it's hard to differentiate players and styles. 

If everyone can be a specialized crafter without some restrictions, nobody is a specialized crafter.

In order to drive home that point, this design forces you to make periodic choices that exclude others.

You can, pick a new passive training line, level a new vessel, but at some point you will notice that to move forward in a new profession/race/class, you have to start over to some degree.

One of the big advantages you may not have seen yet to the leveling and vessel system, is that you can "twink" yourself.  If you are playing a end game Cleric, you can use that endgame cleric to harvest/craft/farm everything you need to try your next build exploration, prior to jumping into a new vessel. There is no gear limitations by level, nor grouping limitations by level with your friends.  Got a great purple suit of plate, migrate it to your brand new level 1 Guinean knight after messing around with the Nethari templar.

In fact, getting twinked and rapid experimentation is probably going to be the more common early player experience, rather than the current slog due to all the resets.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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6 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

You are describing exactly what has always been the intended design. The Kick starter packs even came with a +3 character slots bonus for early participants. 

If you don't like it, that's too bad, because it's what has been sold to us all for years. Looks like you want a different game than what was promised and is being built.

Oh and you might want to tone down the use of disparaging language calling the devs "douches" on your very first post if you want anyone to pay attention to your opinions.

 

I remember when crowfall was sold for years as a game without leveling/pve grinding or gear determining pvp, yet here we are. 

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11 hours ago, Xanderxavier said:

Ok so i played enough now to get a handle on how it works, and yeah got a bit of a concern, your limiting folks to 6 character slots, and atm your making us choose between a char good at combat or good at crafting, well that sucks comes to mind, each char should have 2 combat major discipline slots and 2 crafting major discipline slots, not just 2 slots to share between both, it means those chars I spent my time lvling and turning into crafters are now nothing but pretty lawn ornaments if I ever want to use them for anything but crafting, thanks.... yeah bad design, if you had unlimited char slots then sure make people split em if you want frankly even then you shouldnt but hey its bypassable, but limited char slots dont be douches, you shouldnt have to sacrifice multiple char slots to crafting and make the characters have a disadvantage vs those who became combat only, this seriously discourages the average player from engaging in the crafting system, which is a bad thing, a tiny number of crafters and few gatherers will end up with a horrid economy of high priced crud that only a few big guilds will be able to afford as a matter of course forcing everyone else to be equipped with lousy gear all the time, and no one likes dying cos their gear sucks cos they cant do crafting cos the game itself doesn't allow you to do so alongside combat in the 1st place.

Frankly your whole system is in need of changing, neither minor explore or major combat disciplines  should overlap with crafting, and visa versa, you shouldnt have to sacrifice your ability to craft to fight or visa versa or frankly gather to craft etc also, given your extremely limited char slots , if this stays as is its heading for a bad road come release.

You need to have crafting vessels and PVP vessels. Don't put necromancer's out of work. 

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On 4/23/2019 at 7:52 AM, KrakkenSmacken said:

If you don't like it, that's too bad, because it's what has been sold to us all for years. Looks like you want a different game than what was promised and is being built.

I'd like the game promised during Kickstarter, or is it a few months later, or years later... Not sure what you were personally promised, but ACE never game a lot of detail early on and over the years have made some significant changes that impact the overall design and how people see the concept.

On 4/23/2019 at 10:12 AM, DocHollidaze said:

Sure, things change through testing and dev, not doubt,  but core foundational pillars of the game should not be expected to change.

What were those? 

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I am also a very early KS backer and when I arrive at the Character Select Screen I have 6 Character slots available. However beneath those 6 I have 3 more that are locked and at this time unavailable. Could this mean at some stage I could acquire an additional 3 slots making a total of 9 Characters? For me that would solve the dilemma of Crafting Spec vs. Combat ....

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5 hours ago, Incarnatus said:

I am also a very early KS backer and when I arrive at the Character Select Screen I have 6 Character slots available. However beneath those 6 I have 3 more that are locked and at this time unavailable. Could this mean at some stage I could acquire an additional 3 slots making a total of 9 Characters? For me that would solve the dilemma of Crafting Spec vs. Combat ....

The profession skills is probably the best hint of intent here.  A crafter trains crafting and gathering (in whatever relates to their craft).  A fighter trains combat and exploring (based upon their combat trends).  The entire account follows this pace, just so that you can deliver the best in your chosen pursuit.  As is, you can't even expect to max all forms of crafting, or all types of combat, or every style of gathering.  You have to specialize further.

Keep in mind that there was that nice hotfix to "greatly increase rate of skill growth for during testing."  Once we hit production, everything will wipe and skills will grow dramatically slower.

So no, this isn't a game where a person can expect to be a part of everything.


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