Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
Sign in to follow this  
ferrat

Arbiter Cleric Suggestions

Recommended Posts

5 hours ago, Zintair said:

This I agree with at least for cleric to a degree buT I think for choices for me I was hoping more heal or more cc options.  So one way could get you that added support power and another way could add more cc or enhance already have Cc so you can’t really be great at both type of thing. It should be the same for radical I think too for Dps abilities or stats or healing stats.

not sure I agree with cleric being able to fully Dps there is already plenty of that.

there is already a DPS tree

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, miraluna said:

I really think that Arbiter should be designed as the support promotion not the CC promotion (vs Crusader as the healing promotion). Focusing it all around CC in a pvp-focused game where CC has to be limited seems weird.

A great addition to Arbiter would be something like "Purgative" cleanse from Field Surgeon. https://malekai.org/powers/purgative

Add more support type things that are NOT heals, and NOT CC.

i like where your head is at.. the whole reason i would love to see more duality in this spec is so you can be effective while building this way with your majors

Edited by ferrat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It already got mentioned, that a lot of the CC-Promotions are less valuable because of the retaliation spam. I would like to add, that the sheer amount of CC abilities spread over the other Promotions of all classes (a lot of dps promotions got stun, blind etc...) reduces the value of going for a cc-promotion as well. I think it should be more of a standalone feature for cc-promotions to be able to CC someone. e.g.: DPS-promotion bullies down the target, which gets restrained by some cc-buddy. Personally I´d say reduce the value of retaliation (CD, stamina costs etc...) and take some (not all!) CC from other Promotions to give cc-promotions a purpose. (And maybe add diminishing return (i don´t know/feel like if it is already implemented?) to counter endless cc-chains.)

personal conclusion: the CC you gain by going arbiter does by far! not compensate the loss of heal compared to a crusader and your damage is neglible...

I played arbiter quite a lot and it was fun, but as soon as it gets serious your like a fun feature to have for the group, but another promotion would have been more useful.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, ferrat said:

there is already a DPS tree

I know arbiter would be heal cc support and radical would be Dps heals hybrid was what I was saying.  Get rid of the full Dps and make that the opposite hybrid.

Radical - Dps and off heal no CC

crusader - As is full heal support basic root cc

arbiter - CC support heal hybrid maybe a debuff or 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Zintair said:

arbiter - CC support heal hybrid maybe a debuff or 2

Give it some resistance buffs for the party for standing in holy circle, a barrier built into illuminate and convert some of its dmg into healing when it ults.  All are more viable than what we have now for arbiter.

 

@mhalashace @thomasblair this is turning into a solid discussion about a spec we all want to see work.  


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Exactly! Something else that makes it a viable non main healer but can throw mediocre heals as well as other utility that’s not direct damage.

resistance buffs like @mandalore said

resistance debuffs - could Ben implemented in the tree to choose which you want to debuff not physical however or bleed poison

snare etc etc

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Zintair said:

I know arbiter would be heal cc support and radical would be Dps heals hybrid was what I was saying.  Get rid of the full Dps and make that the opposite hybrid.

Radical - Dps and off heal no CC

crusader - As is full heal support basic root cc

arbiter - CC support heal hybrid maybe a debuff or 2

i understand now. nice! i don't know how much power you want to pull off majors to add in class, but just tweaking the specs to have a bit more duality or as you say split it in to the two lines so we have a solid base to build on with Majors in any direction would be nice.

 

EDIT: at the end of the day.. i rolled a heal + CC class, i don't want to be pigeonholed to DPS + CC because i wanted stronger CC and utility support over pure heals

Edited by ferrat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, ferrat said:

i understand now. nice! i don't know how much power you want to pull off majors to add in class, but just tweaking the specs to have a bit more duality or as you say split it in to the two lines so we have a solid base to build on with Majors in any direction would be nice.

 

EDIT: at the end of the day.. i rolled a heal + CC class, i don't want to be pigeonholed to DPS + CC because i wanted stronger CC and utility support over pure heals

Each char is going to be pigeonholed like that.  This is a game about min max and making alts to fill niche rolls.  You're never going to have a general jack of all trades master of none in Jtodds games.  Build each char as hyper specialized as possible and if you need more utility build a char for that. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Well all I hear them talk about is the customization options, what you are saying goes against what I’m hearing them say. Never the less... given your context there is 2 heal classes , and only one has a hybrid heal/bomb option... that’s 3 choices... 2pure and 1 hybrid so let’s identify the missing base class of utility supports. The game has plenty of dps + CC combos on literally every other class. 

Edited by ferrat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, ferrat said:

Well all I hear them talk about is the customization options, what you are saying goes against what I’m hearing them say. Never the less... given your context there is 2 heal classes , and only one has a hybrid heal/bomb option... that’s 3 choices... 2pure and 1 hybrid so let’s identify the missing base class of utility supports. The game has plenty of dps + CC combos on literally every other class. 

Paladin Templar, Crusader Cleric and earthwarden druid are there three intended healing spec.  They are the only three specs in the game with dedicated support nodes in their training and a end capstone thats based off healing.  Archdruid is the only functioning hybrid healer/damage and it's heals are nothing special, in fact its heals are a direct liability to ability to do damage (of which it's the best aoe class in the game with enough time to set it up). 

Arbiter is a CC first, dps second spec and the minuscule healing it does comes from two spells (tend wounds and holy symbol are its only base heals), neither of which do good with out massive amounts of support power and healing %.  With ults canceling CC, saturation of cc gives immunity since every class throws out CC and retaliate being so easy to use repeatedly CC just isn't very viable to spec for. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I feel like making the passive (when fixed) reset CC skills based off either healing or damage ult, and making arbitration build support power in addition to what it currently does would give the class options it doesn't currently have without making it massively overpowered or forcing people who like the way it plays now to play differently. 

I think they should avoid any major overhaul of the arbiter spec though. It's in a pretty good spot. Strong enough to be well-worth playing if you enjoy what it does. Weak enough that I'm not afraid of seeing a nerf bat anytime soon.

I feel like if they are going to rip up any spec and rebuild it from scratch the Radical would be the way to go. I think if it was completely disassembled and replaced with a Buff/Debuff spec that also had a bit of baked-in support power like the Arbiter, that you would see a lot more radicals actually being played. In-fact I think a lot of people would be falling over themselves to play it.

It's not like there is any lack of damage options and the cleric talent tree is well set up for classes that have a bit of healing to work with even if it's a side thing. Nobody would shed a tear if the cleric specs became three different forms of group support.

Edited by Andius

"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, Andius said:

I feel like making the passive (when fixed) reset CC skills based off either healing or damage ult, and making arbitration build support power in addition to what it currently does would give the class options it doesn't currently have without making it massively overpowered or forcing people who like the way it plays now to play differently. 

I think they should avoid any major overhaul of the arbiter spec though. It's in a pretty good spot. Strong enough to be well-worth playing if you enjoy what it does. Weak enough that I'm not afraid of seeing a nerf bat anytime soon.

I feel like if they are going to rip up any spec and rebuild it from scratch the Radical would be the way to go. I think if it was completely disassembled and replaced with a Buff/Debuff spec that also had a bit of baked-in support power like the Arbiter, that you would see a lot more radicals actually being played. In-fact I think a lot of people would be falling over themselves to play it.

It's not like there is any lack of damage options and the cleric talent tree is well set up for classes that have a bit of healing to work with even if it's a side thing. Nobody would shed a tear if the cleric specs became three different forms of group support.

Just because it's different doesn't mean its good.  You're basically the only person advocating for more of the same for it.  It's a defunct class that has no clearly defined niche (where as almost every other spec does) and the anti cc mechanics currently in the game out shine the cc it can do.  It's prob annoying in some 3v3 but it's not something anybody who plans on winning sieges looks at and thinks "yea, we need two of those". 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

He is advocating for the same  basic suggestions I made... or did I miss something.

 

EDIT: which are both ults reset cd, arb passive stacks support power and dmg... and just a little help for all cc

Edited by ferrat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Yeah in terms of specific class changes the ult and support + damage for arbitration.

In terms of CC, the argument I keep seeing is people saying that essentially all CC specs are crap. I think those people are underselling the value of CC in the current system, because I've noticed mine making notable impacts at all levels of play, but I won't argue the system feels finished / like it couldn't be improved upon greatly. It could obviously, it feels very janky in its current implementation.  If all CC specs are crap though, then the solution is to address that issue, and not gut every single CC spec to do something other than CC. 

I think if we nix the current version of the Arbiter because current CC issues, we're killing a class that is fun and viable to play right now in a number of different PvP scenarios, and we can only expect to get better as the CC system improves. But I also feel like the idea of a buff/debuff cleric would be super fun. Buff/debuff is something this game is really lacking. I don't think the radical really brings that much to the table that can't be achieved better with other builds though for the most part. Nixing it to turn cleric specs into a mainheal spec, a CC spec, and buff/debuff spec all of whom have at least 600-700 support power baked in once you allocate talent points and consider the spirit of the average vessel, would IMO create three distinct and engaging styles of play that are supported by what a cleric actually is at its heart. A tanky support class.

Edited by Andius

"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On a totally separate note and thus separate post, one other minor tweak that could be fun is if illuminate not only added a stun to the next hammer throw but greatly increased its range. It's a long enough cooldown ability that it wouldn't make it more viable for fighting at a range just because you can occasionally fling a hammer super far, but what it would be great for is smacking an enemy as they try to flee a group fight.  It would compliment the cleric's lack of mobility quite well to have an option like that.


"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@AndiusI think @mandaloreunderlying concern is that CC promotions are not viable enough because of the retaliate system.

The retaliate system was put in as it is now because of how much CC is in the game.

I would love to see CC stripped from non-cc classes and a change to retaliate to make CC classes more playable.

 

If CC isn't changed it makes it hard to support CC classes because they just don't do enough. I do agree that they are much more playable in small groups, and thats fine for a promo to have that  niche, but every CC class has same issues because of underlying system.

If CC isn't changed I would love to see more supportive or different healing promos. The lack of choice when 40% of a group is forced to be a healer is not very satisfying IMO.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Retaliate is definitely a powerful counter to CC but people act like it makes CC pointless. When you are CCed and then retaliate:

A. The CC sometimes interrupts your action depending upon its type. 
B. You're still CCed for the entire time it takes you to react and then finish the retaliate.
C. You lose stamina.

Depending on your class stamina loss may not be that important, but I've heard they may be switching back from dodge pips to stam based dodging soon which would make that a much more meaningful loss. A and B are what I see giving me the most value in the current system and it does so in large group fights as well as small group fights. 

I think the current system does favor anti-CC more than CC but not nearly as heavily as some would lead us to believe.

Edited by Andius

"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Andius said:

Depending on your class stamina loss may not be that important, but I've heard they may be switching back from dodge pips to stam based dodging soon which would make that a much more meaningful loss.

Care to cite the source of that because I don’t recall ever seeing them say that on these forums (even the pay to win section) and never in any of their videos  that I can recall nor anybody that I have asked can recall.  


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/27/2019 at 11:57 AM, Andius said:

Depending on your class stamina loss may not be that important, but I've heard they may be switching back from dodge pips to stam based dodging soon which would make that a much more meaningful loss. A and B are what I see giving me the most value in the current system and it does so in large group fights as well as small group fights.

I think what would be a more significant impact would be if Retaliation had a resource cost.  Nothing like CCing someone who is out of Pips, or draining energy/mana.  However, not sure how that would impact most essence users or for people who depend on ammo.

On the other hand, even with dodge staying where it is, if more things cost stamina, this could hurt.  Alone, having stamina not regen in combat or while moving could be a huge impact.

The second option is not only the most globally effective, it's probably also the easiest to implement.  Just set in-combat stamina regen default to 0, and add a stamina regen factor for "while moving" and set that default to 0.  At that point, to regen stamina, you have to stand still out of combat (Though there might be a few things that give a tiny trickle of in-combat stamina regen, or in-motion stamina regen, with the worst case of regen applying if you are both in combat and moving).  Realistically, this solution also makes the most sense.


Milla's Elemental Mastery [Ravens & Crows - See "About Me" Section]:

Spoiler
  • Rosaline: Elemental of Earth, Female Wood-Elf Earth-Keeper, Political Main.
  • Ametrine: Elemental of Fire, Female Nethari Fire-Sanctifer, Endurance Main.
  • Sylphine: Elemental of Air, Female Fae Storm-Caller, Combat Main.
  • Cyandine: Elemental of Water, Female High-Elf Frost-Weaver, Tactical Main.
  • Lumirine: Elemental of Light, Female Human Holy-Crusader, Support Assist.
  • Ebontine: Elemental of Dark, Female Half-Elf Moon-Warden, Survival Assist.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...