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Ble

The increasing PvE Requirement

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Posted (edited)

A walk through the most recent ways we've leveled:

-XP for killing people in PvP/Captures - Removed

-Arrows; make stacks and sac them - Removed

-Frames - make/sac - Removed

-Campfires/Hay/Soil - Reduced/Removed

-Crafted Items General Reduction Of Sac Value

-Zombie/Spider Gold Farm - Reduced/removed

-Color Value of Sac Items/Vessel Color changes

PVE Now the best Option to level

-White Sac (Campfire/Ores) till it phases out.

-Greatly decreased gold from humanoids only

-Recipe Books

-Farming of Level-appropriate ranked mobs

On Test:

Weigh of gold as pertains to leveling reduced.

[Phroot added:]

Major disc's - gated behind timed spawn and RNG. - Changed in 5.9
Minor disc's - gated behind timed spawn and RNG. - Changed in 5.9
Crafting Nec/Blacksmith/Leatherworker (include Woodworker if want a hunger shard fitted) - gated behind timed spawn and RNG (for tools, Googles, Hammer, Awl and Shard hammer). - Some PVE required for end-game crafting progression, I don't agree that everyone shoudl be able to make fully-kitted out gear right away. [/Phroot]

 

If I'm being honest, not just trying to be negative, this game has the worst PvE experience I've ever encountered since July 1999 until May 2019 so basically in the past 20 years and the many many games I've played, this game has by far the worst PvE.

Used to, you got a pass on this because Todd/Blair "this is not a PvE game, this is a PvP game" and so whenever anyone would post about PvE frustrations/problems, thats the general tone by which we as a community would respond.

Now that you are MAKING us PvE, you need to be accountable to your PvE.  It's really really really lacking.  Not only bugged interactions, but it just feels like the whole PvE aspect of this game was a summer interns project.

 

What are your plans around this?  Is this something that's going to be quickly phased out? 

I'm not even mad about having to PvE - I'm ok with it.  If you are going to make us PvE, are there any plans to make PvE better?

If you are going to phase out this PvE requirement, or phase in PvP XP or some other solution, why are you squeezing us so bad on leveling of vessels in the mean time?

Edited by Ble

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40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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Posted (edited)

PVE seems like crowfalls weak point. Centering 90% of your time in game around it seems counter productive. 

Edit that was to the devs not ble

Edited by Marth

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Posted (edited)

I am also curious about this.  I have zero problem with pve aspects of the game.  In fact I support it.  I believe its very possible to have a pvp heavy game with aspects of pve intermixed in order to open up your audience base because you guys want to make money I am sure and the bigger your audience the more you can make which means more to use to make the game better and all that jazz so ya pve is good but as it is(and I fully understand we are in Pre alpha so I am not so upset just curious) it sucks.  I have not even tried to level any vessels other than a default one because I can't seem to get my hands on one because the gold drop rate sucks and I cant make enough to buy one from someone else but it sucks leveling a white vessel so I can only imagine leveling one of the better ones so ya... what is the plan for all this???  Like I said... l like the pve worked into things, just needs to be better.  :)  cheers Ya'll :)   @thomasblair   @jtoddcoleman

Edited by Drizzzt

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11 minutes ago, Drizzzt said:

I am also curious about this.  I have zero problem with pve aspects of the game.  In fact I support it.  I believe its very possible to have a pvp heavy game with aspects of pve intermixed in order to open up your audience base because you guys want to make money I am sure and the bigger your audience the more you can make which means more to use to make the game better and all that jazz so ya pve is good but as it is(and I fully understand we are in Pre alpha so I am not so upset just curious) it sucks.  I have not even tried to level any vessels other than a default one because I can't seem to get my hands on one because the gold drop rate sucks and I cant make enough to buy one from someone else but it sucks leveling a white vessel so I can only imagine leveling one of the better ones so ya... what is the plan for all this???  Like I said... l like the pve worked into things, just needs to be better.  :)  cheers Ya'll :)   @thomasblair   @jtoddcoleman

I can think of a list of Korean mmos that do endless pve grind better than cf does. Cf was not supposed to be a traditional mmo. 

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I mean its great you're adding other avenues of xp gain like crafting and harvesting, but does it really make sense that creating sellable goods or gaining materials at the trivial cost of a few runetools is a more efficient means of leveling than killing monsters?

Didn't you implement passive training specifically so that crafters wouldn't have to grind out a bunch of garbage items just to top out their crafting? With the discipline requirements and level breakpoints, aren't you just encouraging me to grind out a bunch of garbage items so I can unlock enough disc slots and base stats to finish my crafter anyway?

When these new xp avenues are in I'm literally never going to grind mobs for XP because I can go hit motherlodes and a fraction of the cost without beating up the gear I need for PvP. Even at a totally abysmal rate of gain its still more efficient than killing mobs will ever be due to the inherent cost in durability from fighting mobs.


PopeSigGIF.gif

Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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1 hour ago, Marth said:

I can think of a list of Korean mmos that do endless pve grind better than cf does. Cf was not supposed to be a traditional mmo. 

ya, no, I don't subscribe to the whole "not suppose to be" mentality.  things can evolve and change over time and I believe that's a good thing.  We should never rigidly lock ourselves into a specific thing.  that's bad plus lets be honest.  Its not, nor should it be and either or argument.  You CAN have a very strong, heavily focused pvp game with aspects of pve thrown in to the mix.  I personally like going out and killing mobs.  Its fun and a change of pace.  I also like going out and killing other players.  Currently I am finding this whole siege thing to be quite boring and I really hope they are able to liven up the game and make it more interesting which I am sure they will.  kinda looking forward to the dregs.  (is that how thats spelled??)  

 

51 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

When these new xp avenues are in I'm literally never going to grind mobs for XP because I can go hit motherlodes and a fraction of the cost without beating up the gear I need for PvP. Even at a totally abysmal rate of gain its still more efficient than killing mobs will ever be due to the inherent cost in durability from fighting mobs.

Fear not friend, I will grind all the mobs you miss :)  :)  

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53 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

When these new xp avenues are in I'm literally never going to grind mobs for XP because I can go hit motherlodes and a fraction of the cost without beating up the gear I need for PvP. Even at a totally abysmal rate of gain its still more efficient than killing mobs will ever be due to the inherent cost in durability from fighting mobs.

If their response is to add durability loss when harvesting I blame you. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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1 minute ago, Drizzzt said:

ya, no, I don't subscribe to the whole "not suppose to be" mentality.  things can evolve and change over time and I believe that's a good thing.  We should never rigidly lock ourselves into a specific thing.  that's bad plus lets be honest.  Its not, nor should it be and either or argument.  You CAN have a very strong, heavily focused pvp game with aspects of pve thrown in to the mix.  I personally like going out and killing mobs.  Its fun and a change of pace.  I also like going out and killing other players.  Currently I am finding this whole siege thing to be quite boring and I really hope they are able to liven up the game and make it more interesting which I am sure they will.  kinda looking forward to the dregs.  (is that how thats spelled??)  

 

Fear not friend, I will grind all the mobs you miss :)  :)  

They went out of their way in Kickstarter to make this a nonstandard mmo with heavy PvP.  There are 50k backers who backed that vision.  Are they not obligated to make the game they asked for our money to make?  They went out of their way to appeal to the Shadowbane fans, the lead devs first mmo, and then time after time they deviate from that vision.  They went out of their way to make it seem more PvP centric than PvE but somehow the game has ended up more PvE than anything else.  


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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Just now, mandalore said:

They went out of their way in Kickstarter to make this a nonstandard mmo with heavy PvP.  There are 50k backers who backed that vision.  Are they not obligated to make the game they asked for our money to make?  They went out of their way to appeal to the Shadowbane fans, the lead devs first mmo, and then time after time they deviate from that vision.  They went out of their way to make it seem more PvP centric than PvE but somehow the game has ended up more PvE than anything else.  

Have they deviated from it though? Shadowbane had an even longer leveling curve and it had PvE hotspots that drove PvP. 

The PvE in CF isn't meant as something you do before you can PvP. It's meant to create more opportunities for PvP than just sieges and ganking. Yes, to a certain extent, you will want/need to PvE before you engage in PvP, but that doesn't mean you have to have a blue vessel, blue gear and a full set of disciplines before you do. 

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6 minutes ago, Drizzzt said:

ya, no, I don't subscribe to the whole "not suppose to be" mentality.  things can evolve and change over time and I believe that's a good thing.  We should never rigidly lock ourselves into a specific thing.  that's bad plus lets be honest.  Its not, nor should it be and either or argument.  You CAN have a very strong, heavily focused pvp game with aspects of pve thrown in to the mix.  I personally like going out and killing mobs.  Its fun and a change of pace.  I also like going out and killing other players.  Currently I am finding this whole siege thing to be quite boring and I really hope they are able to liven up the game and make it more interesting which I am sure they will.  kinda looking forward to the dregs.  (is that how thats spelled??)  

I'd be fine with them adding more PVE if this was actually "a very strong, heavily focused pvp game." It simply isn't. PVP in of itself is pointless beyond a few points tossed to the scoreboard as this isn't a full loot game and there isn't any PVP reward system. Siege is simplistic and standing in circles is not exciting or challenging. Going out and killing people can be fun, but it doesn't mean anything as is.

Things do change, but I would not have backed if they didn't make it seem like PVE would be more of a means to an end and not the main time sink. FAQ still says this isn't a game where you kill stuff for xp to level...

Glad you don't mind, but I assume many backers will and I see very little reason someone interested in PVE would seek out the non exciting version we have here. Plenty of games do great PVE and PVP.  I'd hoped this would at least have great combat/PVP and conquest but that isn't the case so far.

The Dregs will be great, just imagine the top guilds quickly grinding out what is needed then proceeding to wipe out those newer/slower/worse over and over until they leave as they won't have the gear to compete along with whatever other disadvantages. Campaign ends, repeat.

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3 minutes ago, Arkade said:

Have they deviated from it though? Shadowbane had an even longer leveling curve and it had PvE hotspots that drove PvP. 

The PvE in CF isn't meant as something you do before you can PvP. It's meant to create more opportunities for PvP than just sieges and ganking. Yes, to a certain extent, you will want/need to PvE before you engage in PvP, but that doesn't mean you have to have a blue vessel, blue gear and a full set of disciplines before you do. 

I can see CF not deviating from SB's outcome...

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Don't want to be to controversial but why lvl at all? 

Why cant we create fully grown chrs .

Leveling and exping were an invention of original DnD and its now an artifact passed on from game to game. Crowfall as far as I can see has the objective of RvR,PvP.GvG etc not explore the ever changing word/complete quests raids  etc.

so let's ditch leveling and experience, enhance chr creation?

If your trying to something different and unique then do it.

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Arkade said:

Have they deviated from it though? Shadowbane had an even longer leveling curve and it had PvE hotspots that drove PvP. 

The PvE in CF isn't meant as something you do before you can PvP. It's meant to create more opportunities for PvP than just sieges and ganking. Yes, to a certain extent, you will want/need to PvE before you engage in PvP, but that doesn't mean you have to have a blue vessel, blue gear and a full set of disciplines before you do. 

I don't mean just the leveling curve.  I mean the endless random farming, how gear breaks farming gear, how sacrifice interacts with leveling (how bad the UI and wasted xp at cap is for sacrifice is an issue), how vessels don't sac, how higher tier vessels get less xp from sources, an endless standing in circles capture system, lack of mines for pvp centric players. 

In SB the beta guilds had zero problem leveling on release and securing every start up server under a different warlord.  The SB PvE system was trash and it was avoidable or at least afk'd bc it was so bad.  They don't want us skipping the PvE here but its bad PvE and there's so much of it.  The barrier to get into competitive PvP is massive.  God's Reach, Faction, Dregs will all suffer from the same symptoms of Uncle BoB bc Uncle Bob is a built in intended feature.  The very nature of the game is carrying over knowledge, skills, organization, logistics and for some servers gear, vessels and stockpiles. 

How much PvE is required to be competitive in PvP?  How long does it take to farm majors/minors, level a green+ vessel (the jump from white to green is waaaay too high), get a green set of gear from the 3-5 crafters you will need to befriend/trade with (they wont want gold so you will need to farm dust which is gated behind training) and then learn how your class plays and hope you picked the right class and talents or you have to do it all again?  How many new people are going to do that?  How many people will want to do all of that while getting smashed by people who have been doing it for years or months and know exactly what to do. 

 

The faction servers now perfectly show what I suspect will happen come launch.  The established player base and long term active guilds have banded together and won every trial and won that by massive leads.  The Eu server is even more one sided than NA bc of less people.  How many new people are going to get smashed while jumping through all of those hoops and keep playing after a month? 

Edited by mandalore

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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@jtoddcoleman You guys really need to go back and look at your mission statement presented to us for the kickstarter.  That's the game we backed.  That's the game we want to play.

If I wanted to PvE, I'd go back to WoW.  They do it 10x better than you guys.   What you do well is small group PvP.  Build your game around PvP.   Yes, we need stuff to do when not fighting each other, but that shouldn't be the focus of the game.  Since the wipe at the start of 5.8.6 I have done no PvP.  None.  I've been grinding my crafting vessels to get ready to PvP.  I've been grinding mats to make disposable gear to grind those crafting vessels. 

My entire guild has moved on because you deviated so far from your promises.  The tattered remnant that remains can't compete because everything required to succeed in the game requires a large group of people and a willingness to suffer through a long period of doing chores before getting to the part of the game that's enjoyable.

I've invested thousands of dollars in Crowfall, and three years of testing time, and I'm on the verge of walking away too.

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It really feels like they are running out of money, and what they mean by "First Sanctioned Campaign" for 6.0 is that it is going to be the "early access" soft launch to get a cash infusion.

They know they don't have a complete game, so they are attempting to mask the lack of content/systems/features with pointless grind.


   

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6 minutes ago, Arkade said:

Did SB fail because there was too much PvE?

Sb failed for a multitude of reasons. 

1.  2003 internet and tech were 2003 tech.  It was right in the middle of broadband becoming standard and the death of 56k.  All games struggled with the tech constraints of the time.  WoW barely made it out of Vanilla and it's easily the most successful, largest and longest running MMO (with a pop) of all time.  If WoW launched as poorly as it did then it would be dead, SB also had a horrendous launch and it failed in part of it. 

2.  SB was pushed out early by it's distributor.  It could have used another 6 months in beta.

3.  There were so many exploits in the code, a few ruined it for hundreds of thousands.  https://www.wired.com/2003/05/hackers-put-bane-in-shadowbane/

4.  The population slowly cannibalized itself over years long servers that rarely reset and rarely changed in political climate.

5.  CN players spread like a locust from server to server and smashed every NA resistance but a handful.  The racism and vitriol that spewed forth only ensured more of it. 

6.  FC events only made the powerful into gods and they carried that over in months or years of winning. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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17 minutes ago, Carrothead said:

Don't want to be to controversial but why lvl at all? 

Why cant we create fully grown chrs .

Leveling and exping were an invention of original DnD and its now an artifact passed on from game to game. Crowfall as far as I can see has the objective of RvR,PvP.GvG etc not explore the ever changing word/complete quests raids  etc.

so let's ditch leveling and experience, enhance chr creation?

If your trying to something different and unique then do it.

I have the same point of view. Why do we need to level at all? There’s a bunch of other character grind with disciplines etc. 

 

just cut cut out the leveling. We don’t need to “discover” how to use our class slowly. 

 

If people screw up how they spent points they can just make another. They can learn what to do on a base vessel before they upgrade to better vessels which have a cost. 

 

You want people to jump in and play? Get rid of this giant time sink. We don’t need it. 

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You can use sacrifice value for minor buffs from gods or for the scoring system. There are enough reasons to kill mobs without levels. 

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