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The increasing PvE Requirement

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1 minute ago, Ussiah said:

You can use sacrifice value for minor buffs from gods or for the scoring system.

Wouldn't that still be considered a grind?


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Posted (edited)

Depends on the benefits. Make them small enough it won’t be. 

Do you consider food benefits a grind?

 

by scoring system I didn’t min for winning a cw. Example would be a cosmetic related to that god. More like how crafting is currently except cosmetic reward. 

Edited by Ussiah

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4 minutes ago, Jah said:

Wouldn't that still be considered a grind?

The race and class buffs in SB were nice but not so over powered they were the determining factor in sieges.  Could also use this system to replicate spires. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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42 minutes ago, Arkade said:

Did SB fail because there was too much PvE?

I barely played SB when it launched, but safe to say it was a variety of reasons.

However, if I was going to use something as inspiration for a new product, I would dang well make sure I improve upon what came before, especially if the previous product is one of few in the market that actually failed as in shut down.

I've seen multiple design choices defended because SB had something similar. Again, no problem, but those things better be above and beyond what SB had along with what other games past/present/future offer.

Having a PVE camp as a PVP hotspot is pretty non-creative as in not at all when it comes to making PVP content/systems. Unless you've never played any other PVP focused games or even PVE ones that have PVP on the side.

I admit I wanted CF to be something that it likely can't be and maybe I read between the lines a bit to make it fit my wishes, but I can't honestly say they haven't deviated from how they originally presented the game/concept. The "manifesto," Kickstarter, FAQ (past/present), dev comments/interviews painted it a particular way.

I've seen questions asked about the PVE in CF on other sites and some go as far to say there will be NO PVE. Which is silly by itself and clearly not that informed, but I don't know how people would go that far in one direction if ACE didn't at least attempt to present it as something that it isn't currently. 

If a number of fans that have been here from the start seem to believe the same thing we are either right or share the same delusion. I'd like to hope it's the first.

I have a life and limited time to play and why I backed a product that was going with passive progression, with little to no active progression, shallow power curve, combat with some skill involved, relatively easy to get in and get playing, PVP focused, and optional PVE. All of which seems to have gone in the opposite direction depending on how technical we want to be.

What it comes down to is the PVE not being fun (for me) and apparently a major component of day to day playing. Either doing it regularly or ganking/defending others doing it. I have no desire to attack people grinding on mobs nor watch them do it.

Every update seems to go further in this direction without any indication from ACE that they have anything else planned. Tweaking a few numbers or turning the knobs isn't going to change this. At this point it will take them pulling some never talked about features to keep me around. I backed Camelot and Ashes as well so just a matter of time before one of these things gets to the finish line. Also a few other MMOs in production that could be interesting. Let the best game win my time and money.

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, APE said:

I backed Camelot and Ashes as well

I backed Ashes and wish I could get a refund.  I gave CU money as well but my hope is to not have to play RvRvR.  I want the dregs.  I want a political climate that is dynamic and shaped by the players.  I want meaningful PvP for the sake of assets and not just who's epeen is bigger (it's always mine). 

 

What I don't want is a massive barrier to PvP from a half assed overly grindy PvE system that forces its self on me like a drunk Standford swimmer.  I don't want to spend more time smashing people that are behind and can't compete simply bc I am a no life neck beard (and I really am) bc the power curve is wildly uneven (a finished level 30 blue vessel with the right discs and some blue gear is a god compared to new players in less).  I don't want so spend hours farming for random drops that nobody wants (looking at you thorns based minor disciplines).  I don't want a game that fosters Uncle Bob while pretending to combat it and telling me thats a problem with a future fix. 

Edited by mandalore

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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1 minute ago, mandalore said:

I backed Ashes and wish I could get a refund.  I gave CU money as well but my hope is to not have to play RvRvR.  I want the dregs. 

Ashes seems like it could be a Western BDO which could be okay for what it is. I've enjoyed Apoc for the most part and the combat/performance have been surprising for what they are working with. Likely won't be my game, but I can see it doing well for a wider audience. If someone wants PVP/PVE game, I'd go this route over CF.

I played DAoC instead of SB and enjoyed my time in WAR as well so CU might do it for me if they can pull off what they promise. IMO they are taking more risks or trying new things compared to ACE. Doubt half of it will work well, but so far the engine and the systems they have are decent. I'd prefer a more GvG format, but RvR seems easier to design for and maintain long term. 

1 minute ago, mandalore said:

I want a political climate that is dynamic and shaped by the players.  I want meaningful PvP for the sake of assets and not just who's epeen is bigger (it's always mine). 

What I don't want is a massive barrier to PvP from a half assed overly grindy PvE system that forces its self on me like a drunk Standford swimmer.  I don't want to spend more time smashing people that are behind and can't compete simply bc I am a no life neck beard (and I really am).  I don't want so spend hours farming for random drops that nobody wants (looking at you thorns based minor disciplines). 

Same.

Both CU and Ashes seem to have room for meaningful PVP with land/node control and whatever else. The world will change and change hands. Where CF's strength of campaigns ending is also a weakness as it does turn it into a glorified lobby game to some extent.

1 minute ago, mandalore said:

I don't want a game that fosters Uncle Bob while pretending to combat it and telling me thats a problem with a future fix. 

This might be my largest issue/fear currently. Thwarting Uncle Bob was a major selling point (for me) and I've seen little to nothing in this area. Campaigns ending only does so much and playing no import seems somewhat to defeat the purpose of a lot of the design as is.

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Posted (edited)

How much of this angst is because we've been testing this game for almost 4 years? How much of it is because the game is wiping every 30-45d? or because ppl (almost entirely those that don't play) are constantly calling for wipes?

I am concerned that ACE doesn't get the acceptable time demand for a LIVE game that doesn't wipe is different for a pre-alpha TEST that is wiping regularly.  I'm not sure they are taking respect for Pre-Alpha Testing player's time seriously.

-------

That said, you can level a blue vessel in a weekend. Some have done it in a single day.  That's relatively very quick.

ACE is making efforts to add reasons for ppl to be out in the world rather than logging in for 1hr a day.  (If we want a PvP game for 1hr a day there are better options out there.) The systems they are adding need work and overhauls, especially discs, but I see what they are trying. The game in general needs more content and better conflict drivers.  We need dregs, player keeps, caravans, mines etc...

In the end, guilds got setup and running within 2 weeks of a wipe.... For a live environment that's not terrible.  

I wonder how much of this thread is thought of having to put in this effort after a 5.90 wipe, a 5.100 wipe and a 6.0 wipe?

Edited by Angelmar

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I believe ACE needs to address the pvp and pve issue asap. One idea I had was to make reoucre caravans from temples to forts/keeps. Npc caravan with ore, stone, leather etc. Various colors. Each player who groups with caravan as a guard gets a portion of the haul when it reaches destination.  Other factions can attack the caravans for loot. Add xp in the mix too. No timers just random, maybe 10 minute notification before departing.

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10 minutes ago, Angelmar said:

That said, you can level a blue vessel in a weekend. Some have done it in a single day.  That's relatively very quick.

For an organized group that knows what works and what to do and does it in the most efficient means possible.  Yep that isn't bad at all.  How does it work when it's a new player learning the game or a small less organized force combating the more organized and now better geared, higher level, with minor/major discs?  How many people stick with testing after trying it out?  How many will play the game for a month and bolt to a different game?  Where's the sustainability in any of this? 

 

13 minutes ago, Angelmar said:

ACE is making efforts to add reasons for ppl to be out in the world rather than logging in for 1hr a day.  (If we want a PvP game for 1hr a day there are better options out there.) The systems they are adding need work and overhauls, especially discs, but I see what they are trying. The game in general needs more content and better conflict drivers.  We need dregs, player keeps, caravans, mines etc...

There a 100% needs to be reasons to be out in the world.  Leveling is normally a good carrot for that horse but in any other game we aren't designed to remake that char with every tier of new vessels (once training slows down for live and we lose the x3 that is what seems will happen).  What other game has us constantly level the same char, farm new discs, harvest to get our initial gear, keep harvesting to maintain our gear, get three to five specialized crafters to make that gear, get several random drops to maximize that gear and then none of this grind includes to grind to build our assets that we are supposed to be using to win the game and host our communities in the game. 

They took gold, which I assumed was supposed to be the main currency of the game as it serves no other purpose, and then removed its interaction from the highest tier of vessels.  That confuses the poorly made socks out of me. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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11 minutes ago, mandalore said:

They took gold, which I assumed was supposed to be the main currency of the game as it serves no other purpose, and then removed its interaction from the highest tier of vessels.  That confuses the poorly made socks out of me. 

I question this decision as well. I thought it was great that the value of Gold was backed by its usefulness for leveling. 


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3 minutes ago, Jah said:

I question this decision as well. I thought it was great that the value of Gold was backed by its usefulness for leveling. 

That was, currently, the only value in gold.  This makes dust, or god forbid embers, far more valuable and since it's gated behind training less accessible to new players.


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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3 hours ago, mandalore said:

If their response is to add durability loss when harvesting I blame you. 

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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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Posted (edited)

I’m fine with there being leveling and progression, but just give me all my kitten powers at the start and have talents “upgrade” them to their current state (like increased damage, adding combos, further movement, adding CC, reduced cooldowns, etc)

And also have higher rank mobs give more exp the lower the level you are. i.e.

  • A level 1 vessel should get 50 exp from a r1 mob, 100 from an r2, 150, from an r3, 250 from an r5, 500 from an r10. And this should be true for any vessel of any quality. I don’t see why higher quality vessels should have a diminishing return on the types of mobs that will grant them exp

Also, better sacrifice values on sacrifice items!

 

 

Edited by coolster50

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You Can't Be A Genius, If You Aren't The Slightest Bit Insane.

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Posted (edited)

One thing I'd love to know is what else ACE has on their minds in order to help create a larger economy.  Right now the economics of the game are almost entirely self-contained in guilds as we all know selling weapons to your enemies is generally not a great idea.  If the only reason I want gold is to buy stuff then why am I selling stuff?  Shouldn't my guild be spending their time making the stuff we want instead?

The use case for a lot of mechanics seem centered around the idea that players will exchange goods with one another but that hasn't really been the case.  Getting gold for leveling has been the sole reason why we would ever sell something to somebody.  Now that is going away we will have even less reason to trade with one another.  This compounds with the low gold drops.  Nobody wants to sell because gold is useless and nobody wants to buy because farming gold without selling stuff is a pain in the butt.

 

 

Edited by Hungry

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So now we have the grindfest of 5.9

Gold worthless for leveling at a point where everyone will be rerolling their vessel "should" necro goggles actually make into the game AND the RNG gods grant you the good fortune of dropping it instead of a first aid book.

Current state of hoops players have to go through.

PVE;

Major disc's - gated behind timed spawn and RNG.

Minor disc's - gated behind timed spawn and RNG.

Leveling Vessel's - gated behind 1-3 spots in campaign where mobs will give decent XP value.

Crafting Nec/Blacksmith/Leatherworker (include Woodworker if want a hunger shard fitted) - gated behind timed spawn and RNG (for tools, Googles, Hammer, Awl and Shard hammer).

PVP;

Keeps - timed window

Forts - timed window

Respawn mechanics now mean forts near a keep would actually be worthwhile taking, but wait whats that? RNG means said Fort cannot be taken because game has decided that Forts window is not open. Oh wait your defending and you cant stop them respawning in a Fort near your Keep because that Forts window is not open, RNG to the fore again.

Welcome to Crow"there is a time and place for everything"fall, providing the RNG gods allow you to complete the hoop jumping.

 

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This game sure does not seem to be what we were sold on a few years ago when we rushed to give them our money during the kick starter. The game is now a grind fest of pve... a grind fest for resources.. a grind fest of grind. I know I have lost interest in even logging into this version of the game and find it very hard to want to continue doing so. This was sold on a PVP game, yet with the failed faction system and exuberant amount of PVE and lack of making the leveling go fast, this game feels like just yet another MMO with nothing extra or different than the crap that is already out there. I know that if this does not get it self back on track as a true PVP game and centers around that I wont play it, I don't wanna do a grind PVE game.


 

"tell the world that it is the will of the gods that my Rome be head of all the world."

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, mandalore said:

For an organized group that knows what works and what to do and does it in the most efficient means possible.  Yep that isn't bad at all.  How does it work when it's a new player learning the game or a small less organized force combating the more organized and now better geared, higher level, with minor/major discs?  How many people stick with testing after trying it out?  How many will play the game for a month and bolt to a different game?  Where's the sustainability in any of this? 

 

There a 100% needs to be reasons to be out in the world.  Leveling is normally a good carrot for that horse but in any other game we aren't designed to remake that char with every tier of new vessels (once training slows down for live and we lose the x3 that is what seems will happen).  What other game has us constantly level the same char, farm new discs, harvest to get our initial gear, keep harvesting to maintain our gear, get three to five specialized crafters to make that gear, get several random drops to maximize that gear and then none of this grind includes to grind to build our assets that we are supposed to be using to win the game and host our communities in the game.

This to me, just goes to my point.  Despite what ACE Marketing is selling about CF being ready for competitive GvG gameplay and #WarStories, this is what JTC has been saying--a pre alpha.  Its not a game and not ready to be treated like one.

We know for example they intend discs to involve Thralls. This is likely just their 1.0 version of disc drops to get it out the door..... But we're judging it like it's the ultimate ACE solution because (1)ACE Marketing is pushing this as a playable competitive game and (2) because ACE is making us spend time and grind like its a LIVE game. (And (3) we're impatient for CF to make progress and get to dregs).

If ACE is going to be pushing half-finished systems to LIVE, that's fine in a pre-alpha, but don't try to treat the game like it's GAME rather than a TEST.

Edited by Angelmar

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12 minutes ago, Angelmar said:

This to me, just goes to my point.  Despite what ACE Marketing is selling about CF being ready for competitive GvG gameplay and #WarStories, this is what JTC has been saying--a pre alpha.  Its not a game and not ready to be treated like one.

We know for example they intend discs to involve Thralls. This is likely just their 1.0 version of disc drops to get it out the door..... But we're judging it like it's the ultimate ACE solution because (1)ACE Marketing is pushing this as a playable competitive game and (2) because ACE is making us spend time and grind like its a LIVE game. (And (3) we're impatient for CF to make progress and get to dregs).

If ACE is going to be pushing half-finished systems to LIVE, that's fine in a pre-alpha, but don't try to treat the game like it's GAME rather than a TEST.

I agree with this 100%.  A lot of this is pretty normal growing pains of a project going from prototyping to fleshing out scoped features and polish but we're trying to convince people to spend $50 and play on LIVE which is up 24/7.  The expectations change.  Whether or not the game will be better on soft launch doesn't change the fact the systems as they are being replaced piecemeal are painful now.

 

Likewise, we don't know what ACE is planning and how much of these systems are done once the make the change.  Is this it for gold?  Maybe?  Who knows?  So feedback is going to only be focused on what people can see now, not what they divine ACE might do in the future.

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2 minutes ago, Angelmar said:

This to me, just goes to my point.  Despite what ACE Marketing is selling about CF being ready for competitive GvG gameplay and #WarStories, this is what JTC has been saying--a pre alpha.  Its not a game and not ready to be treated like one.

We know for example they intend discs to involve Thralls. This is likely just their 1.0 version of disc drops to get it out the door..... But we're judging it like it's the ultimate ACE solution because (1)ACE Marketing is pushing this as a playable competitive game and (2) because ACE is making us spend time and grind like its a LIVE game. (And (3) we're impatient for CF to make progress and get to dregs).

If ACE is going to be pushing half-finished systems to LIVE, that's fine in a pre-alpha, but don't try to treat the game like it's GAME rather than a TEST.

The current major disciplines drop system is no less grindy and rng than the proposed system as we know it.  In the future they thralls will be random spawn during night only that drop a component that a rune crafter can use to make a disc.  If you can't find the right thrall or it didn't spawn or somebody else gets it is the same wasted time as farming rng drops off constantly farming mobs.  I am more than willing to accept that the game is trashy bc its alpha and the systems aren't complete but they have been slow to fix mistakes, they are adding more grinding systems (we have yet to see the systems to build our assets in the dregs and that's going to be a grind to end all grind if they follow their own precedent) and the current systems favor their dedicated players and do nothing for new players or less organized guilds.  In fact new players are at significantly lower drop rates because they trade safety in gods reach for drop chance. 

 

14 minutes ago, weaponsx said:

This game sure does not seem to be what we were sold on a few years ago when we rushed to give them our money during the kick starter. The game is now a grind fest of pve... a grind fest for resources.. a grind fest of grind. I know I have lost interest in even logging into this version of the game and find it very hard to want to continue doing so. This was sold on a PVP game, yet with the failed faction system and exuberant amount of PVE and lack of making the leveling go fast, this game feels like just yet another MMO with nothing extra or different than the crap that is already out there. I know that if this does not get it self back on track as a true PVP game and centers around that I wont play it, I don't wanna do a grind PVE game.

It doesn't feel like the same game we kickstarted, some of that is good and some of that is very bad.  As far as the failed factions comment goes I suspect the same people that are willing to neckbeard it to win will continue to win in the dregs and the same people that lost in factions will continue to lose there.  The systems as they are favor the winner and then it just comes down to who can no life stand in circles at whenever the other faction is at work or asleep (which is supposed to be fixed but that's another SOON™).  Even after there are time restrictions on when people can siege and fight for assets I am concerned that the windows will just force people to fight people who are willing to grind and thus have an advantage the rest of the pop isn't willing to do.  The dedicated testers who play this game day after day, month after month, year after year will obviously continue to put up with the grind but they are the only ones it seems who will.  The testing pop is, and I'll double my initial estimate, 500 out of 50k backers.   I don't mean people that log in to just get badges or the literal hundreds of alt accounts the core backer group have at their disposal, I mean theres maybe 500 people that play the game 10+ hours a week consistently for weeks or months.  That's 1% of the total backers.  That should be a problem. 

If only 1% of your current backers have the stomach to test the systems as is then thats a long term problem that needs to be looked at and redirected before it's too late. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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Just now, mandalore said:

In the future they thralls will be random spawn during night only that drop a component that a rune crafter can use to make a disc. 

Has it been confirmed that they will "random spawn" as opposed to named mobs always spawning in the same place as they did in Shadowbane?


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