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Ble

The increasing PvE Requirement

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, mandalore said:

I backed Ashes and wish I could get a refund.  I gave CU money as well but my hope is to not have to play RvRvR.  I want the dregs.  I want a political climate that is dynamic and shaped by the players.  I want meaningful PvP for the sake of assets and not just who's epeen is bigger (it's always mine). 

i think it's been touched on in the thread abit, but the other elephant in the room is the heavy focus on testing 'faction' rulesets, with no real talk about how many ingrained/related systems are going to realistically translate to a 'free for all' dregs ruleset [or even say the status of 'shadow vs dregs' etc]

Edited by Tinnis

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Just now, Tinnis said:

 [or even say the status of shadow vs dregs etc]

I thought the alternative rule sets were scrapped for now.  Isn’t it only gods reach (noobie island), three faction and dregs (guild vs guild)? 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, mandalore said:

I thought the alternative rule sets were scrapped for now.  Isn’t it only gods reach (noobie island), three faction and dregs (guild vs guild)? 

more the eternal debate of whether the dregs is 'your guild is your faction' mechanically (e.g multiple group friendly fire immunities) or whether it is 'single group is your faction only' (with regards friendly fire immunities)

Edited by Tinnis

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8 minutes ago, Tinnis said:

more the eternal debate of whether the dregs is 'your guild is your faction' mechanically (e.g multiple group friendly fire immunities) or whether it is 'single group is your faction only' (with regards friendly fire immunities)

O I thought that debate was ended years ago.  They’ve said multiple times we wouldn’t like friendly fire. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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1 minute ago, mandalore said:

O I thought that debate was ended years ago.  They’ve said multiple times we wouldn’t like friendly fire. 

thats not what i said 😜

more about if you will have 'ally' status [e.g. multiple allied groups] in addition to 5 man 'group' status.

not 'friendly fire within your group'


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signed. wrong way this game goes. after 5.6.8 wipe we

1) grind to lvl white combat vessels to farm some resources to get white gear. boring, waste of time

2) grind to lvl white crafters to use farmed from p1 to craft blue vessels. they are also going to /dev/null. waste of time

3) grind to lvl blue vessels of our crafters, grind to craft items for crafters, grind to craft gear for crafters.

crafters = twink accounts (2-3 per player).

4) grind to lvl blue vessels of our gathering characters coz somehow low dex/str is a waste of time also

5) grind to lvl blue vessels to our combat characters, grind to gear it up in blue+, grind with strange RNG bosses

and then... grind grind grind. for about 1.5 weeks. and... we done. now we wait for glass for necromancy to craft legendary vessel for? I really dunno for.

 

there was rarely pvp on eu while this. coz there is no reason to pvp, no reason to siege, no reason to capturing. 1-side servers both - NA and EU for a long time already.

I think such model will fail and as result ppl wont play this game.

 


crowfall pvp makkonMyrmidon statement: Out of Fury

Discord makkon#8550

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I do not understand why the mmo genre is so stuck on grinding as the mechanic to keep players engaged. 

Look at the success of MOBAs, they really hurt the MMORPG genre. Removed the silly tedious grind and got players playing as quickly as possible. Stop and look at what made them successful.  

Make meaningful content that gets players engaged. Not tedious grinds that hope to cause conflict. There is a giant hole in the MMORPG genre that thousands of players want filled... a RPG with meaningful open world PvP. This should be the primary focus. Crafting and gathering should be to enable meaningful PvP, not be the content of it. 

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1 minute ago, oneply said:

Look at the success of MOBAs, they really hurt the MMORPG genre. Removed the silly tedious grind and got players playing as quickly as possible. Stop and look at what made them successful.  

Don't a lot of MOBAs include a grind? A grind that you repeat every time you play a match?


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A grind?  If you mean the lane phase of a match of league then that’s a dynamic facet.  Different match ups, jungles, wandering lane, counter builds, lane pushers, aggressive tower divers, creep score; all make for a very different match from one to the next.  Lane phase can be 5 minutes or 20 minutes if everybody plays conservative. 

24 minutes ago, Jah said:

Don't a lot of MOBAs include a grind? A grind that you repeat every time you play a match?

 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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16 minutes ago, mandalore said:

A grind?  If you mean the lane phase of a match of league then that’s a dynamic facet.  Different match ups, jungles, wandering lane, counter builds, lane pushers, aggressive tower divers, creep score; all make for a very different match from one to the next.

Doesn't the Crowfall grind include similar dynamics?


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2 minutes ago, Jah said:

Doesn't the Crowfall grind include similar dynamics?

Except brand new player in CF is not competitive whatsoever. Until the time grind (passives) catches them up and they get in competitive gear. There’s also the fact that the entirety of the “grind” is competing. Not roaming taking pointless objectives hoping to find PvP which yields you no xp.  

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The game design in its current iteration is a disaster if pvp is the main goal.  People want to be competitive and so if that means purple vessels that’s what is going to be the eventual requirement.  This involves a serious amount of pve and possibly even multiple vessels to do.  But instead of discussing it I am just going to list the problems I see already in my first campaign.

1) vessels require pve in all aspects to get from multiple fields of gathering and crafting.

2) gear and the fast breaking of gear requires a significant amount of pve to farm mats and maintain or upgrade again from multiple harvesting and crafting professions.

3) leveling requires only pve (wtf?) 

4) trading or bartering requires only pve

5) disciplines and minors require ONLY pve to get

6) fort capping is majoritively pve circle standing.

i may be missing more. But literally 90% of this game requires a ridiculous amount of pve from several people to even just be prepared for pvp.  Not exactly a problem entirely BUT....

 

there is barely any PvP.  There are no groups roaming, there is the occasional gank party or fight at a wartribe boss but that’s it aside from siege time.  Then siege time is over in 30 min and there’s some pvp after but it’s just a cluster custard.

 

What plans could there be in the works that would change the dynamic currently in place that would incentivize people to actually go out and fight each other.  Maybe DAOC and other MMOs spoiled me but I want to get the pve over with and then non stop pvp and dash in a little pve when needed for money or repairs or new gear whatever.

 

my 2 cents 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, makkon said:

signed. wrong way this game goes. after 5.6.8 wipe we

1) grind

2) grind

3) grind

4) grind 

5) grind 

and then... grind grind grind. 

*slightly edited for effect :)

It started when 5.7 hit. Is ACE pulling a SWG before launching? Ya, that comparison is a little off, but the dev team took such a drastic change of direction in so many area's it makes me wonder just what happened. 

Edited by mystafyi

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3 minutes ago, Zintair said:

1) vessels require pve in all aspects to get from multiple fields of gathering and crafting.

2) gear and the fast breaking of gear requires a significant amount of pve to farm mats and maintain or upgrade again from multiple harvesting and crafting professions.

3) leveling requires only pve (wtf?) 

4) trading or bartering requires only pve

5) disciplines and minors require ONLY pve to get

6) fort capping is majoritively pve circle standing.

All of these things would involve PvP so long as they were contested by other players. Could it be that the problem right now is simply that there are too few players contesting these things?


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1 hour ago, Jah said:

Doesn't the Crowfall grind include similar dynamics?

Not even remotely similar.  I can smurf in league and easily 1v4 and 1v5 lower tier teams with little effort and a high success rate. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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7 minutes ago, Jah said:

All of these things would involve PvP so long as they were contested by other players. Could it be that the problem right now is simply that there are too few players contesting these things?

yes.  these things do put you in the crosshairs of what ever pvper may be out there.  If people are choosing to NOT engage in pvp than that is a choice and of course your point about to few players is a very valid point but lets not forget.....  Its pre-alpha.  if the game was fully released and in this state, we may have a problem but currently its still in development

 

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6 minutes ago, Jah said:

All of these things would involve PvP so long as they were contested by other players. Could it be that the problem right now is simply that there are too few players contesting these things?

I don't think player concurrency is the major problem. Yes it is a factor for sure, but the examples listed grinding pve that is pretty much mandatory in order to pvp at all. The players without levels/gear/discs/vessels would by nature avoid pvp while being forced to pve grind until they are geared/leveled enough to matter in pvp. The problem is ACE locking pvp behind pve grind in most every area.

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If you are even semi careful, a roaming band won’t get anything for contesting resources. Kill a group doing motherlodes or bosses what happens? They already spirit banked everything :P

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, mystafyi said:

I don't think player concurrency is the major problem. Yes it is a factor for sure, but the examples listed grinding pve that is pretty much mandatory in order to pvp at all. The players without levels/gear/discs/vessels would by nature avoid pvp while being forced to pve grind until they are geared/leveled enough to matter in pvp. The problem is ACE locking pvp behind pve grind in most every area.

If the game is working as intended, I don't think it will be an option to avoid pvp until you've finished your "mandatory" pve grind. You will have to pvp to do it. There will be other players actively competing for the same resources. That will mix the pve and pvp together, which should make the pve more of a pvp activity.

Personally, I don't share the popular opinion that you can't even pvp until you are on even footing with your enemies. I think you can pvp while you are still on the path to even footing, and in this game you will have to.

"PvE first, and then PvP after" is not how this game is supposed to work. The two are interlinked.

Edited by Jah

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11 minutes ago, Jah said:

"PvE first, and then PvP after" is not how this game is supposed to work. The two are interlinked.

I have no problem with both activities playing out together, but currently they are not. Removing the whole leveling system from the game would drastically reduce the pointless grind and effectively hard locking PvP behind PvE leveling grind just to be able to use basic class skills.

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