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Ble

The increasing PvE Requirement

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27 minutes ago, Jah said:

Personally, I don't share the popular opinion that you can't even pvp until you are on even footing with your enemies. I think you can pvp while you are still on the path to even footing, and in this game you will have to.

My concern is the disparity in power between a leveled char with disciplines and a character leveling still.  It’s a massive gap that shouldn’t be if the intent is to have to pvp with unfinished chars. My concern is new players getting demoralized by the elites and the population quickly stagnating. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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53 minutes ago, Jah said:

All of these things would involve PvP so long as they were contested by other players. Could it be that the problem right now is simply that there are too few players contesting these things?

On some aspects I agree but and like I said it may Ben the DAOC talking in me but I want there to be a point where I’m just fighting other people of similar gear score/power all the time.  I personally don’t want to search out people and gank them for their resources and call it pvp.  I want to 5v5 I want to 10v10 I want to 5v10 etc etc.  I feel at the moment the evil pve demon is always looking over my shoulder whether it’s durability, my vessel, the lack of major or minor etc.

this isn’t to say dealing with those things are bad I just don’t want it to be so time intensive that it literally takes away from my time actively pvping other people.

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12 minutes ago, mandalore said:

My concern is the disparity in power between a leveled char with disciplines and a character leveling still.  It’s a massive gap that shouldn’t be if the intent is to have to pvp with unfinished chars. My concern is new players getting demoralized by the elites and the population quickly stagnating. 

Also this...

there is a major gap in power through passive trees (which I’m ok with) and vessel and gear.

i like the idea of the vessels too but it shouldn’t be so difficult to get to a blue vessel.  I see the blue vessel as a solid ground to be competitive.  I could be wrong however.  Add to that some purple gear runic weapons etc and this player should be able to take on someone of legendary vessel status and beat them if they are better or their class counter the other.

the upkeep of items will keep the pve healthy market healthy etc but make it so it’s not multiple campaigns for a new guild before they can even begin to compete.  Maybe some won’t agree with me there but if you want people to fight don’t bury their face in pve to do it

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, mandalore said:

My concern is the disparity in power between a leveled char with disciplines and a character leveling still.  It’s a massive gap that shouldn’t be if the intent is to have to pvp with unfinished chars. My concern is new players getting demoralized by the elites and the population quickly stagnating. 

I think the power curve is a fair thing to be concerned about.

It's a tricky balance, making it so the stuff we are fighting over feels like it is worth fighting over, while also keeping it balanced so that people who don't have that stuff yet still feel like they have a chance.

Edited by Jah

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37 minutes ago, Jah said:

If the game is working as intended, I don't think it will be an option to avoid pvp until you've finished your "mandatory" pve grind. You will have to pvp to do it. There will be other players actively competing for the same resources. That will mix the pve and pvp together, which should make the pve more of a pvp activity.

Personally, I don't share the popular opinion that you can't even pvp until you are on even footing with your enemies. I think you can pvp while you are still on the path to even footing, and in this game you will have to.

"PvE first, and then PvP after" is not how this game is supposed to work. The two are interlinked.

The only game I ever played that did that in anything close to impressive in this for an MMORPG was Fantasy Earth Zero (back when I played it, stuff might have changed since then in that game).  In that game, you get no XP in PVE (coins only, useful for healing items only, can't even buy gear that way).  Participate in sieges, you get the other currency (for gears), and you get XP (which is higher in both cases depending on personal and faction performance).  The only real reason to PVE was to refill healing items.  PVP (Siege) was effectively the entire game.

I've never seen anything close ever repeated.  I would love to, though.  Crowfall could still even pull this off, too.

But the biggest thing I saw from that was, how they then had low levels do work in siege, simply because they needed to siege to stop being so weak.  Low levels were given certain responsibilities, such as construction, production, banking, sapping, and driving siege weaponry (aka, summoning), because none of that was impacted by character strength.  When you were strong enough, you hit the front lines and started fighting by your own merit (or you start playing guard for the back lines, or you started ambushing their back lines.. mostly front lines though).  This sort of system we still don't have here in crowfall, there is really no sort of "low level responsibilities" in PvP, which is holding back vision like this.


Milla's Elemental Mastery [Ravens & Crows - See "About Me" Section]:

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16 minutes ago, Zintair said:

Also this...

there is a major gap in power through passive trees (which I’m ok with) and vessel and gear.

The combat aspect of the passive tree isn’t a large of a difference as people would think.  It adds up but it’s not as big of a difference as any of the other systems that empower characters.  The truly big disparity is passive training and harvesting or crafting.  The massive difference between a finished gravedigger and a novice is significant.  The difference in what a fully trained blacksmith and a novice is where the true power in the game resides.  Everybody talks about vessels and they are powerful (and imo overly complex) but the biggest net gain a character can get in game is a fully rerolled min maxed runic weapon.  If you have access to those then you have a significant power advantage over those that do not and that’s where I start to worry the most.  


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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3 hours ago, Jah said:

All of these things would involve PvP so long as they were contested by other players. Could it be that the problem right now is simply that there are too few players contesting these things?

This is a valid point but we should also ask ourselves: If these things are inherently unfun, how long will the game last once the initial lookie loos drop in, decide they don't like it and move on? If this system ACE has developed only works above a certain threshold we're going to reach a point where the game falls off completely. Since this is Pre-alpha it seems they should be testing that too. Maybe making campaign worlds smaller until it reaches critical mass and people start complaining about having too much PVP. 

OP has a good point. ACE should be playing to their strengths instead of building such an all encompassing world. I know Jtodd is an old DnD player so I'd like to remind him that ; Just like building a DnD character if you focus on everything you won't be great at anything. We want you to build a Great PVP throne war game. Your players will forgive you if there are no quests, if the monster AI is janky, if the crafting is a little sub par. As long as you can deliver on some outstanding PVP and set the stage for large territory wars with good performance you will keep your niche audience. In my opinion the fundamental design and game mechanics are absolutely imperative. It's like having a badass house with great fixtures and surfaces but a crappy floor plan. This is why so many testers are weighing in. We're standing in circles for points out here

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Chroma said:

Maybe making campaign worlds smaller until it reaches critical mass and people start complaining about having too much PVP. 

I'd be all for this if server performance was able to handle it. Maybe 5.9 will help.

This idea goes with everything though. Have mobs drop 5 times as much loot or rocks spew out 5 times as many doobers. Increase or decrease things to match the population.

If we are supposed to be testing mechanics and issues this would magnify them. 

If we are supposed to be testing realistic game loops then it is pretty pointless without all the systems in place and looking at feedback and dev decisions, they don't seem to listen anyway.

Do we need more outposts then players? What's the point of having newly introduced items be gated behind low RNG? If they want X to drop every 100 kills at launch that's fine, but during testing we need to be able to actually....test.

I'd rather we complain that we've found all the bugs because it was too easy to find them due to population awareness.

7 hours ago, Zintair said:

On some aspects I agree but and like I said it may Ben the DAOC talking in me but I want there to be a point where I’m just fighting other people of similar gear score/power all the time.  I personally don’t want to search out people and gank them for their resources and call it pvp.  

Exactly. As a competitor, I want challenging competition and if I lose it should be because I was outplayed with skill, not because I grinded longer. Grinding away for hours for advantage is no different then throwing cash at the screen. Ganking (assuming enemy is at a disadvantage) is not rewarding PVP for me. Those that say they want to win at any cost probably think steroids and what not are great for competitive sports as well. Sportsmanship should be part of the experience.

8 hours ago, Zintair said:

What plans could there be in the works that would change the dynamic currently in place that would incentivize people to actually go out and fight each other.  Maybe DAOC and other MMOs spoiled me but I want to get the pve over with and then non stop pvp and dash in a little pve when needed for money or repairs or new gear whatever.

They need to make controlling strongholds, mob camps, resource nodes, zones, THE WORLD have some meaning besides points ticking at the top of the screen. There needs to be an extra layer or two of systems in place to allow strategy short and long term to be a factor. 

Darkness Falls is a good example of this. If people wanted to go level or get them sweet rewards then someone had to capture strongholds and take control through PVP. Can't count the number of great times had trying to defend within after we lost DF or rushing in after taking it, oh and ya the PVP action in the Frontiers that got us there. It wasn't just wait until a group pulls a War Tribe boss and gank them....Same goes for Relic Raids, locking out enemy movement with map control, etc. Toss in some buffs/rewards for controlling or playing near something and ta da we have some reasons to PVP besides "OMG we just gained 149 points just like we did 20 seconds ago even though I'm standing here doing nothing!"

Edited by APE

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Jah said:

Don't a lot of MOBAs include a grind? A grind that you repeat every time you play a match?

If you want to call it that. Pushing a boulder up a hill is a grind too, but I'm not paying someone to do that.

While each is different, in general MOBAs have matchmaking to keep player skill relevant, shallow power curve (if any), no longterm power gain, no carry over of whatever happened in the last match, and simply the benefit of being limited time as certain things are more enjoyable in small injections. I like spicy food but I'm not going to walk around drinking ghost pepper hot sauce daily.

9 hours ago, Jah said:

All of these things would involve PvP so long as they were contested by other players. Could it be that the problem right now is simply that there are too few players contesting these things?

Possibly a population issue but dumping 1000+ people on a map isn't going to make standing in a circle more exciting or rewarding.

What is needed are rewards/reasons that we can use and work into strategy beyond the drive to see a score increase at the top of the screen.

If I capture an outpost and gained +5% harvesting in the area, it provides a reason of substance that I can use, not wait for X time to pass (months potentially) and hope my efforts helped my guild/faction win a campaign.

If capturing a Fort or Outposts around a war camp gave me +10% drop chance, that increases my reasoning to capture it, defend it, stay in the area, and grind.

I know "instant gratification" of any kind is just the worst thing imaginable for some, but that is what drives people in many ways.

If a small group or guild was building up and have no chance at winning or even say a faction that is just being dominated, they could decide to take control of +harvest buff POIs and harvest as much as they could to export. Next campaign they could focus on +Craft POI and craft with all the resources they obtained. Next campaign go for +offense/defense POIs, etc.

To me this opens up a lot more strategy over time beyond, we want to grind so lets gank the people grinding and run them off. Which leaves one side likely just getting stronger and stronger (Uncle Bob is that you again) or both sides making no progress as both are losing more than they are gaining.

8 hours ago, Jah said:

If the game is working as intended, I don't think it will be an option to avoid pvp until you've finished your "mandatory" pve grind. You will have to pvp to do it. There will be other players actively competing for the same resources. That will mix the pve and pvp together, which should make the pve more of a pvp activity.

Personally, I don't share the popular opinion that you can't even pvp until you are on even footing with your enemies. I think you can pvp while you are still on the path to even footing, and in this game you will have to.

"PvE first, and then PvP after" is not how this game is supposed to work. The two are interlinked.

All classes/promos aren't created equal when it comes to progression. Be it leveling and talents, promo benefits, base kit vs having disciplines, etc. Having an entirely open world makes it a haven for ganking and more about running people off then engaging them for a challenge. Tossing everyone into the same pot ignoring differences leads to issues. While not perfect Albion Online's map control related to risk/reward is something ACE should look at. Having Nub World and The Real Game as they do now just splits the player base and is less natural.

Edited by APE

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9 hours ago, APE said:

What is needed are rewards/reasons that we can use and work into strategy beyond the drive to see a score increase at the top of the screen.

If I capture an outpost and gained +5% harvesting in the area, it provides a reason of substance that I can use, not wait for X time to pass (months potentially) and hope my efforts helped my guild/faction win a campaign.

If capturing a Fort or Outposts around a war camp gave me +10% drop chance, that increases my reasoning to capture it, defend it, stay in the area, and grind.

I know "instant gratification" of any kind is just the worst thing imaginable for some, but that is what drives people in many ways.

If a small group or guild was building up and have no chance at winning or even say a faction that is just being dominated, they could decide to take control of +harvest buff POIs and harvest as much as they could to export. Next campaign they could focus on +Craft POI and craft with all the resources they obtained. Next campaign go for +offense/defense POIs, etc.

To me this opens up a lot more strategy over time beyond, we want to grind so lets gank the people grinding and run them off. Which leaves one side likely just getting stronger and stronger (Uncle Bob is that you again) or both sides making no progress as both are losing more than they are gaining.

This I love. It would get a lot more engagements happening. There would be reason to stand in circles and to put guards in towers. 

The mechanics are there. We get the keep buff already. And with the siege windows coming it plays even more into it. The maps would be covered in meaningful objectives. 

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33 minutes ago, srathor said:

The difference between a blue and green vessel. With no additives. 

unknown.png

 

Green to blue isn’t the biggest jump, it’s white to green that’s the huge jump. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Ble said:

Just rewatched this just to be sure... but no, didn't see "this game will be PvE heavy" anywhere in it.  Just trying to be thorough:

After rewatching myself is is a bit concerning how far off they are from their major selling points of the time. More was included in the KS, post KS site, and even in the current FAQ that simply don't exist or not close to what they described.

Maybe all these things will come in the next year or three?

Maybe these things are relatively easy in comparison to making War Tribes and three million and ten different types of items to use for crafting? At least if these things existed and were half way decent the other issues might not be so glaring.

Strategy ? Beyond spending more time in game, being better organized, and or better players, I don't see any game provided features that scream this is a "strategy" game anymore than any other game that has conflict (FPS, BR, MOBA, MMO PVP, etc). Be better then everyone else isn't really a strategy.

Conquest ? They show a graphic of forces taking over land and mention this has political importance. The current POI capture system is not that by a long shot.

Fealty ? Don't even really have a guild system so not surprising there isn't anything more complex that supports politics and more strategy based play.

Exploration ? No fog of war, map making, diverse lands/things to discover.

Different campaigns/rules/win conditions ? We have had one very simplistic system with very slight tweaks. Current model is very simple and definitely earns the "pre-alpha" tag.

Destruction ? Seems Voxels and destruction outside of being able to make a hole in a wall were canned a good while ago.

Edited by APE

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On 5/2/2019 at 5:00 PM, oneply said:

Crafting and gathering should be to enable meaningful PvP, not be the content of it. 

Funny, I said this exact same thing in Discord the other day. Atm it feels like the game and everything in it exist just to prop Blair's crafting system and become the best and most complex crafting system to ever exist in MMOs. When it should be the other way around, for the crafting and resources to exist simply to prop meaningful pvp. We have this bloated, filled to the brim with power creep crafting system that inccurs a long and boring grind. And instead of enhancing pvp, it degrades it, because it's just a bloated stat stacking power creep ride.

No one here played the Ryzom MMO, but damn, that was a fine example of pvp for resource control and a super meaningful crafting system done right. Crafting was very deep and unique, I'd argue it was way better than SWG's / CF's, but it just felt a lot more streamlined and used a lot less resources as well. You could pve farm the excellent materials and be highly competitive in those, or you could go to the pvp zones to fight for the supreme materials which were better and worth fighting for, but nothing mandatory for peak performance. On top of that you could fight for the PVP Outposts which produced unique pvp materials that changed the way weapons crafted with them performed (lifesteal, free cast %, special CC chance, etc). You basically farmed for armor and a weapon and then spent the rest of the time trying to acquire an outpost weapon if possible. Gear degraded and broke, but you could still get a good couple weeks of nonstop PVP action, die or win, with it. Resources were meaningful and important to fight for, but didn't feel like this overwhelming, bloated and over complicated grind always looming on the horizon. 


 

 

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1 hour ago, Rikutatis said:

Funny, I said this exact same thing in Discord the other day. Atm it feels like the game and everything in it exist just to prop Blair's crafting system and become the best and most complex crafting system to ever exist in MMOs. When it should be the other way around, for the crafting and resources to exist simply to prop meaningful pvp. We have this bloated, filled to the brim with power creep crafting system that inccurs a long and boring grind. And instead of enhancing pvp, it degrades it, because it's just a bloated stat stacking power creep ride.

It's not that surprising that such a focus is on crafting with Blair being the design director and being so hands on. He's good at what he's good at. Unfortunately that might not roll over so well when the game is supposed to be a Throne War Sim, not a Crafting Sim.

Might be a "can't see the forest for the trees" situation. Having great individual systems is pointless if they don't work together to serve the common goal (as I perceive it to be). As they don't give out any roadmaps and we only get info on things coming soon, I have no clue if they have any interesting strategy/PVP based content coming. "Players are the content" sounds great, but we can only provide so much for each other.

I'm not sure anyone on the team has a lot of experience with making complex strategy/PVP systems if Shadowbane is the largest source of inspiration.

I wouldn't mind seeing Blair's beast master, build-a-buff, and some of the DCUO stuff make it in with similar systems. These could be fun, but the larger core PVP model needs work first.

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