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Vesperre

You Can't Be Serious! (leveling)

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Posted (edited)

Hi,

It's me again with my weekly installment of 'What's Wrong with Crowfall!?'.  This week we're going to cover...'The Grindfest' that Crowfall is slowly but undoubtedly becoming.   Yes we are in pre-alpha and nothing is set in stone, but I'm wary of direction this game is taking.  There is undoubtedly a trend to make the initial phase of the game more difficult.  It's less about the hike and more about the time spent at your local MEC.   I don't think this was part of the original vision.

I remember months ago I made a post, "Make Leveling Meaningful".  It was about how leveling was more or less pointless in the game.  I'm sure other people shared my view and what they did was to implement a skill tree where skills were slowly gained thru levels.  That was great, though adding the major/minor discs was useless to that tree (psst everyone was going to get them!) I was more/less satisfied with their solution.  Now however, leveling has taken a turn for the worse.   I can't help thing that Blair/Todd want to go out and kill mobs/Cap to level (not lvl thru gold and sacrificing).  However, the paradox they don't realize is you need to be a sufficient level to do these things.  When's the last time you see a level 10 do anything useful in a siege.  It just doesn't make sense.  

Now I know there are new ways of leveling being implemented.  Crafting/Harvesting/Circle Standing should now give exp.  We'll see if that is enough to make up the difference.  However, if people find a good way to level (i.e. mining rank 10s) you can be sure it will be nerfed as sure as arch frames.  My point is, why?  Why make it more difficult to play the 'real' pvp game.  The philosophy is all backwards.

What it come down to really is, Crowfall leveling is becoming more and more mainstream MMO (like WoW).  I think Blair/Todd believe that people are rushing thru the leveling/gearing (that's a whole other story) process and getting to the fighting part.  Moreover, I think they realize the sieges and capping isn't really enough to keep people interested long term (rinse/repeat/uncle Tom).  So they've turned their emphasis on the pre-fight part which includes leveling.  However, they don't have enough content to make leveling interesting like a regular MMORPG (quests/story arch etc.).  They really need to rethink this whole approach.     

I remember when I first signed up to Crowfall, I watched a trailer video where catapults we're firing at a fort on some mountain slope.  Action looked fast and fun.  There was a huge map where factions could gain territories in a huge continent and territory seizing was progressive.   Seemed kinda like a medieval Fortnite with more substance.    That said, I enjoy the more intricate parts of Crowfall (Harvestin/Crafting) but it was never, in my mind, suppose to be a 'Grind' to get my character in fighting shape.  Sadly, this seems to be new vision.

What to do about it?  Frankly that's a difficult question.  However, I would give people more to do at the endgame than the gearing/leveling.   Without Dregs, this game is really one long 2-3 week one trick pony.  There is nothing really do other than circle stand or kill a tree or trees or defend trees.  If this is the format, reward me for doing these things with either a reputation/renown points or currency and let me get in game rewards and return leveling to being easier.

Thanks for listening,  

Vesperre

 

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Edited by Vesperre

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15 minutes ago, Vesperre said:

Hi,

It's me again with my weekly installment of 'What's Wrong with Crowfall!?'.  This week we're going to cover...'The Grindfest' that Crowfall is slowly but undoubtedly becoming.   Yes we are in pre-alpha and nothing is set in stone, but I'm wary of direction this game is taking.  There is undoubtedly a trend to make the initial phase of the game more difficult.  It's less about the hike and more about the time spent at your local MEC.   I don't think this was part of the original vision.

I remember months ago I made a post, "Make Leveling Meaningful".  It was about how leveling was more or less pointless in the game.  I'm sure other people shared my view and what they did was to implement a skill tree where skills were slowly gained thru levels.  That was great, though adding the major/minor discs was useless to that tree (psst everyone was going to get them!) I was more/less satisfied with their solution.  Now however, leveling has taken a turn for the worse.   I can't help thing that Blair/Todd want to go out and kill mobs/Cap to level (not lvl thru gold and sacrificing).  However, the paradox they don't realize is you need to be a sufficient level to do these things.  When's the last time you see a level 10 do anything useful in a siege.  It just doesn't make sense.  

Now I know there are new ways of leveling being implemented.  Crafting/Harvesting/Circle Standing should now give exp.  We'll see if that is enough to make up the difference.  However, if people find a good way to level (i.e. mining rank 10s) you can be sure it will be nerfed as sure as arch frames.  My point is, why?  Why make it more difficult to play the 'real' pvp game.  The philosophy is all backwards.

What it come down to really is, Crowfall leveling is becoming more and more mainstream MMO (like WoW).  I think Blair/Todd believe that people are rushing thru the leveling/gearing (that's a whole other story) process and getting to the fighting part.  Moreover, I think they realize the sieges and capping isn't really enough to keep people interested long term (rinse/repeat/uncle Tom).  So they've turned their emphasis on the pre-fight part which includes leveling.  However, they don't have enough content to make leveling interesting like a regular MMORPG (quests/story arch etc.).  They really need to rethink this whole approach.     

I remember when I first signed up to Crowfall, I watched a trailer video where catapults we're firing at a fort on some mountain slope.  Action looked fast and fun.  There was a huge map where factions could gain territories in a huge continent and territory seizing was progressive.   Seemed kinda like a medieval Fortnite with more substance.    That said, I enjoy the more intricate parts of Crowfall (Harvestin/Crafting) but it was never, in my mind, suppose to be a 'Grind' to get my character in fighting shape.  Sadly, this seems to be new vision.

What to do about it?  Frankly that's a difficult question.  However, I would give people more to do at the endgame than the gearing/leveling.   Without Dregs, this game is really one long 2-3 week one trick pony.  There is nothing really do other than circle stand or kill a tree or trees or defend trees.  If this is the format, reward me for doing these things with either a reputation/renown points or currency and let me get in game rewards and return leveling to being easier.

Thanks for listening,  

Vesperre

 

 

Only time grinding is used is when there is a lack of content for people to do. 

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26 minutes ago, Marth said:

Only time grinding is used is when there is a lack of content for people to do. 

What other content would you suggest? 

I think the idea is that the PvE content will drive the PvP content. If raid bosses are needed to improve our characters, and they only spawn at certain times, they will be contested. Without these hotspots, PvP will devolve into sieges and ganking and the only reason to PvP will be to get points. Sieges only happen at certain times and ganking as PvP content isn't sustainable. In a game where campaigns can last for months, what else would you suggest they add to keep people occupied, that will drive meaningful PvP?

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15 minutes ago, Arkade said:

What other content would you suggest? 

I think the idea is that the PvE content will drive the PvP content. If raid bosses are needed to improve our characters, and they only spawn at certain times, they will be contested. Without these hotspots, PvP will devolve into sieges and ganking and the only reason to PvP will be to get points. Sieges only happen at certain times and ganking as PvP content isn't sustainable. In a game where campaigns can last for months, what else would you suggest they add to keep people occupied, that will drive meaningful PvP?

Are you asking how any other mmo lowers the time you need to spend grinding?

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12 minutes ago, Marth said:

Are you asking how any other mmo lowers the time you need to spend grinding?

I'm asking what content you would add to both give people things to do between sieges and to drive PvP. 

Grind can be mitigated pretty easily be adjusting drop rates and XP gains. I think people are looking at the current implementation and deciding that the entire premise is flawed, when in reality, it's just not properly tuned. That's my take anyway. 

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1 hour ago, Arkade said:

I'm asking what content you would add to both give people things to do between sieges and to drive PvP. 

Grind can be mitigated pretty easily be adjusting drop rates and XP gains. I think people are looking at the current implementation and deciding that the entire premise is flawed, when in reality, it's just not properly tuned. That's my take anyway. 

That's an important distinction.  It's been poorly tuned for a while now and there doesn't seem to be much dialing in of the knobs on the values.  They seem pretty static.  It wouldn't take much dev work(wouldn't take teams of programmers, engineers, devs, artist, testers and whatever awesome poorly made socks jackal does) to change the values.  How many posts have their been about how grindy CF is.  At what point do the devs go " hmmm, well custard.  CF has a lot of grinding.  Was that intentional? " ?


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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15 minutes ago, Allinavi said:

Something like Leveling Dust, that you have on test, would be amazing tied to the VIP status monthly... I would even buy heaps of it for crowns. Just do it! @vkromas

When the solution to poor game design is throw money at the company to make the game fun, they've succeeded.

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3 minutes ago, APE said:

When the solution to poor game design is throw money at the company to make the game fun, they've succeeded.

Nah, you're totally fine if you're doing a blue vessel. The level grind is not that bad at all, especially if you're a savvy player that knows where to go. As for the dust... it's not really pay to win as much as a convenience. Making a high-quality Epic/Legendary vessel, worthy enough to justify cost, is a farm and a half itself. IMO it makes the VIP option much more attractive, and having a crown-cost equivalent makes sense too. 

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17 minutes ago, Blazerunner said:

Nah, you're totally fine if you're doing a blue vessel. The level grind is not that bad at all, especially if you're a savvy player that knows where to go. As for the dust... it's not really pay to win as much as a convenience. Making a high-quality Epic/Legendary vessel, worthy enough to justify cost, is a farm and a half itself. IMO it makes the VIP option much more attractive, and having a crown-cost equivalent makes sense too. 

One player's convenience is another player's P2W. The more grindy a game the more this is true. Can definitely see CF being F2P in the future with a more questionable cash shop and VIP.

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Siiiigh...I see this sorta thing ALOT....the whining and crying...oh its to hard....THIS GAME DOES NOT HAND CRAP TO YOU ON A SILVER PLATTER.....GET OVER IT!!!! Do your research....this isn't WoW. The ONE thing I see that EVERYONE OVERLOOKS about this situation is HELLLOOOOOOOOOOO?....wipes!.  Your salty cause you need to grind..i get it...but keep in mind all you carebears, your in a bloody test phase. WHEN GAME IS RELEASED YOU ONLY HAVE TO GRIND WHAT YOU NEED ONCE! So get off your high bloody horses and if its to much, do what most of us are doing...take a bit of a break. Nuff said  im out peace(here is some tissue's, for those still trying to get over it)

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Posted (edited)
49 minutes ago, Nextelum said:

WHEN GAME IS RELEASED YOU ONLY HAVE TO GRIND WHAT YOU NEED ONCE!

That’s not entirely true.  You have to level that vessel once but if you want a blue vessel you would have to reroll it.  If you wanted different discs you have to reroll it, since major discs are permanently bound to the vessel.  If you messed up your stats you have to reroll it (that’s a product of there not being a mechanic to fix it).  The system is is designed to make us level more than once and continue to upgrade our vessel quality long term if we wish to stay at the top of the stats game.   

The first jump in vessel quality, white to green is huge, but the others get incrementally smaller.  

Edited by mandalore

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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2 hours ago, Nextelum said:

Siiiigh...I see this sorta thing ALOT....the whining and crying...oh its to hard....THIS GAME DOES NOT HAND CRAP TO YOU ON A SILVER PLATTER.....GET OVER IT!!!! Do your research....this isn't WoW. The ONE thing I see that EVERYONE OVERLOOKS about this situation is HELLLOOOOOOOOOOO?....wipes!.  Your salty cause you need to grind..i get it...but keep in mind all you carebears, your in a bloody test phase. WHEN GAME IS RELEASED YOU ONLY HAVE TO GRIND WHAT YOU NEED ONCE! So get off your high bloody horses and if its to much, do what most of us are doing...take a bit of a break. Nuff said  im out peace(here is some tissue's, for those still trying to get over it)

I have no issue with a game being hard/challenging, this game is not hard in that way. Grinding for the sake of grinding as in giving up my real life and virtual one to do pointless tasks because they need filler is not what I seek out or consider fun. I'd play WoW or any number or better PVE/grindy games if I wanted that, although even PVE games aren't that grindy any more as they are more about instant gratification.

Wouldn't carebears actually like this design?

If you believe you only need to grind once, you must have taken a very long break.

Grinding consistently appears to be a main part of the game for everyone unless you have friends that will "hand crap to you on a silver platter." Even if that was to happen, there isn't much to do beyond harass those grinding when siege timers aren't active or one has become tired of going from circle to circle.

Then again maybe you know more then most. Hopefully that isn't your main account and you'll been around much longer considering you are already taking a break...

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50 minutes ago, mystafyi said:

You are not lying. Take Black Desert Online for instance...… https://venturebeat.com/2019/04/09/pearl-abyss-grosses-more-than-1-billion-for-black-desert-mmo/

BDO is a great game for what it is as are many games that get written off despite so many still paying and playing. People accept the faults because everything else is worth it. Right now I can't say the same for this game. If the combat, siege, and PVP as a whole were amazing, sure whatever PVE and grind can be a thing, but right now they do not balance out for me. Mediocre combat, character design, and PVP along with a heavy dose of grindy un-fun PVE are not going to bring in a billion that's for sure.

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Things have durability...they break...they need to be crafted, im a crafter.....loving the system, but with that said this is not a PVE game this is a PVP game at its core. When the wipes are done, you wont have to grind NEARLY as much. You will only need to passive train your skills once. There will be WAY MORE content(some of which is already inbound in 5.9+...yes prob a wipe or 2 more). You wont be losing your vessels as quick etc etc. Embargo will add a whole new element when implemented. Mass production is on its way so no more single crafting items, you can start a factory and pump them out by the boatload. Enchanting is also inbound. More world bosses. and I may be wrong but wasn't thr mention of dungeons at some point?....so I really must be an idiot, for not seeing what your issue is...its a pre alpha state game. What the hell more do you want. SMH

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, mandalore said:

That’s not entirely true.  You have to level that vessel once but if you want a blue vessel you would have to reroll it.  If you wanted different discs you have to reroll it, since major discs are permanently bound to the vessel.  If you messed up your stats you have to reroll it (that’s a product of there not being a mechanic to fix it).  The system is is designed to make us level more than once and continue to upgrade our vessel quality long term if we wish to stay at the top of the stats game.   

The first jump in vessel quality, white to green is huge, but the others get incrementally smaller.  

agreed.....so im lost as to what the issue is. If you want better stuff, either work for it, or join a guild.

Edited by Nextelum

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5 minutes ago, APE said:

If the combat, siege, and PVP as a whole were amazing, sure whatever PVE and grind can be a thing, but right now they do not balance out for me. Mediocre combat, character design, and PVP along with a heavy dose of grindy un-fun PVE are not going to bring in a billion that's for sure.

This is exactly the issue for me as well. I would be more willing to put up with the major grindfest, the huge gear power creep and the skewed power curve if combat and pvp were fun and well executed and the faction ruleset was well designed. We've known for a while now combat is mediocre at best and the faction ruleset is a disaster. So atm I'm just waiting to see what they do with Dregs, really. I hope the Dregs ruleset can carry the game. 


 

 

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9 minutes ago, Rikutatis said:

This is exactly the issue for me as well. I would be more willing to put up with the major grindfest, the huge gear power creep and the skewed power curve if combat and pvp were fun and well executed and the faction ruleset was well designed. We've known for a while now combat is mediocre at best and the faction ruleset is a disaster. So atm I'm just waiting to see what they do with Dregs, really. I hope the Dregs ruleset can carry the game. 

Guess it isn't click to move so that's a win.

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32 minutes ago, Nextelum said:

agreed.....so im lost as to what the issue is. If you want better stuff, either work for it, or join a guild.

The problem is people were expecting a game without levels and meaningful stuff to do.  There was a kickstarter advertisement about not doing another meaningless quest to kill ten rats (I don’t have it saved on my phone but I have it at home).  

I’ll be the first to tell people it’s not a solo game and join a guild.  In fact I often harass people in the community discord for not being a guild.  However a guild isn’t a solution just a triage for the problem.  There’s so much added complexity that looks like it’s just added for the sake of complexity.  

Let’s break down the complexity of vessels.  

1.  It takes a mother load specced person and 1-2 other people to start to do them.  They are the only way to get minerals.  You can min max it with better picks, gear, a group with the right discs and food but somebody somewhere is going it to generate that resource.  

2.  You need a grave digger and the more specialized they are down the tree the more efficiency they have with the difference races they can harvest.  Shovels, gear, stats, discs, food and even race can all make this easier to do.  

3.  You need an alchemist and water.

4.  You need a necromancer.  

5.  To min max it you need philo stone from step 3 but to further min max it you need one the random drops from the war tribes. 

6.  You need to acquire minor discs from war tribes.

7.  You need major discs from the place holder and eventually from a dropped item from a randomly spawned mob in a randomly spawned location that only spawns at night (disappears in the day) and then you will need a runecrafter to concert that item into the major you need. 

8.  You need to level that vessel.  Lots of different ways to do that for lower quality and significantly less for higher quality.  

9. You start with zero of the abilities you already had unlocked from every previous time you did this.  (That one confuses me).  

That seems overtly complex to me.  The expectation is that new people will be able to do that while competing with people who already have?  Haven’t we already seen what happens?  Look at the campaigns.  How massive is the barrier to be competitive with the NA guilds who have won all 4 of the trials and seem to be about to win their 5th (meaning the same people have won every trial).  There’s a lot of factors that go into winning.  Guild logistics, specs, player skill, the passive bonus of out gearing your opponent, better vessels, access to finished builds with all the discs, leadership, a considerable will to stand in circles at 0300 and just sheer desire to win all factor into it. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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