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RunningWithRandoms

DPS cleric players.

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Posted (edited)

I'm happy to discuss it, but stop claiming you've tested it.  You have NOT tested a group of them, it's absolutely obvious from your statements that this is the case.

Look, if you want to debate theory crafting that's 100% fine, but that's NOT what the OP of this tread called for in the slightest.  Is it?

I asked for people interested, and if you're not interested, then this isn't the thread for you?  Stop derailing it.  You're essentially saying "you want to test a group dynamic, and we have tested the class singular dynamic, and your group dynamic wont work.  These are the issues with the class in singular, A, B, C, D etc, and it's a broken mess... and there's no way around it that we can see, so we don't want to look."

Now that's fine, but is that what I started this thread for?  Did I ask "who doesn't want to TEST it, and just talk about it for a while instead?... I don't think so.

Come on now.  If you aren't interested in the OP question why are you answering a DIFFERENT question?  Find another thread, and let this be for people who REALISE this is the perfect time to HANDS ON TEST things.  

Free materials.  Free time as nothing is happening in the game.

The only requirement to take part in what I'm asking is willingness to spend time, the capacity to craft with the free materials, and a willingness to say good bye to the idea if/when it doesn't work.

You're overly invested in complaining about what you already think about it, based on your experiences with it.  Instead of being open to letting OTHER people whom are interested in seeing it, seeing it.

Or you know, derail the initial thread's point even further.  I can't stop you obviously.

Edited by RunningWithRandoms

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, RunningWithRandoms said:

I'm happy to discuss it, but stop claiming you've tested it.  You have NOT tested a group of them, it's absolutely obvious from your statements that this is the case.

Look, if you want to debate theory crafting that's 100% fine, but that's NOT what the OP of this tread called for in the slightest.  Is it?

I asked for people interested, and if you're not interested, then this isn't the thread for you?  Stop derailing it.  You're essentially saying "you want to test a group dynamic, and we have tested the class singular dynamic, and your group dynamic wont work.  These are the issues with the class in singular, A, B, C, D etc, and it's a broken mess... and there's no way around it that we can see, so we don't want to look."

Now that's fine, but is that what I started this thread for?  Did I ask "who doesn't want to TEST it, and just talk about it for a while instead?... I don't think so.

Come on now.  If you aren't interested in the OP question why are you answering a DIFFERENT question?  Find another thread, and let this be for people who REALISE this is the perfect time to HANDS ON TEST things.  

Free materials.  Free time as nothing is happening in the game.

The only requirement to take part in what I'm asking is willingness to spend time, the capacity to craft with the free materials, and a willingness to say good bye to the idea if/when it doesn't work.

You're overly invested in complaining about what you already think about it, based on your experiences with it.  Instead of being open to letting OTHER people whom are interested in seeing it, seeing it.

Or you know, derail the initial thread's point even further.  I can't stop you obviously.

People have been testing and theory crafting this game for years.  You've been here 5 minutes?  The radical cleric is woefully under powered and the current meta involves beamed melee that will run through the radical.  We are all trying to save you the trouble of losing when you bring an under tuned group of chars to a fight and possibly cost your faction the points they need to stay in the running. 

 

Blair said they will be looking at tuning after 5.100, until then I wouldn't count on much from radical. 

Edited by mandalore

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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ok, 1 question, stop avoiding the points and answer 1 question, cause you're just circumventing my statements and pushing yours continually.

How many clerics have you had in a single group for actual testing purposes where 1 or more where DPS clerics.

And a bonus round.  Did you play with discipline set ups and additional class combo's in relation to non cleric positions that could potentially synergise with this?

You claim you've tested it, fine... but what quality of test HAVE you REALLY done?  Also as to your discord comment of "you're custarded"... I'm sorry, but you're intellectually disingenuous in the extreme.  Pander to your own ego so more tho if you need to.  Avoid my statements and push your opinions more so if you need to.  

Heads up tho.  Doing something for a LONG time doesn't make you qualified, not if you just do the same thing and don't retest your assumptions.  There's a difference between learning for a long time, and repeating for a long time.  GG dude, after your discord statements, you can do you at this point.

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Well if one is woefully under tuned two isn't going to change that.  If the only problem was mana then sure but the damage they do isn't enough, they don't pair well with most major discs, their skill tree buffs the wrong damage type and one rune entirely shuts it down (elementalist).  They are squishy, immobile and under tuned.  That's not an attack on you, thats basically the opinion of every veteran tester in the community.  


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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4 hours ago, RunningWithRandoms said:

How many clerics have you had in a single group for actual testing purposes where 1 or more where DPS clerics.

I've tried running DPS once on Live and messed around on Test a few times. Never put much effort into working with others to make a group build around or with DPS cleric in mind.

What do you see the strengths or reasons to go with a Cleric instead of other DPS options, especially from classes that are clearly DPS classes?

What does 1-2-3 Clerics offer in return for losing the variety of using other classes/promos in those spots?

No idea if anyone has tried exactly what you are suggesting, but there might be an obvious reason for that or you're on to something that others have failed to see.

Just looking at what the class offers and what disciplines might work well, I'm not sure it is worth the effort for potentially little in return.

Hammer spam + more spam + some stuns/blinds? Guess I'm not seeing the value, then again I'm not a Cleric player so the ins/outs might be lost on me.

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@Doc, I'm not demanding that the thread is answered in a particular way, only that it's not answered in a totally off topic way.  That's called DERAILING.  And it's considered poor form in ANY community.

@Ape.

So the interesting thing about dps cleric is that it's Ulti is on half cost, and has a very strong up time.  Because it affects basic attack as a mechanic in a meaningful way, it integrates with MANY minor disciplines in meaningful ways.  There are a lot of on last hit apply effect's available there.  It also increases the blind rate significantly from the associated synergy skill, but you won't see that being a big effect with out combat training due to low crit chance, that's however changed partially by buff rotation, as the recast from multiple clerics will ramp crit for the whole team up... 3 clerics in group will maintain a solid crit chain for this for 15-20 seconds as an example.

As to the crit chain, there are other classes that can take advantage of having a resulting ridiculous crit rate for that initial engagement phase.  If they also take advantage of the on last hit minor discipline effects, there's potential in that.  Yet to be explored however.

So in essence, with 2 DPS clerics, and a heal cleric, you've got double blinds firing with a 3rd less meaningful one, high on hit stuns going into a grouping, along with relatively condensed damage output, though not huge.  Adding that flash cast into the 3rd hit on repeat does significant boost tho.  

I would suggest that 3 DPS clerics increase the blind rate, but the extra on hit effects won't necessarily stack well, and will likely over cast on the same targets primarily.  However, you're starting to get to a CC spam rate (Heal cleric should use the dps ulti if you go 3 dps clerics) where it could potentially outpace the Retaliate spam/Stam regen spam, if qued in with a 5th class that's able to find a rotation that includes aoe CC whilst taking advantage of the on hit effects.  This is highly questionable though, you're talking about condensing a burst engagement in under 10 seconds that needs to proc off about 20 CC events to overwhelm the stamina/retaliate power, which is essentially 3 basic attack chains from each cleric, aoe snares, and the 5th class member is going to have to do some heavy lifting for THAT to work.

Fortunately, whilst that might not work CURRENTLY, it's pretty assured that the retaliate, stam regen rate will be mitigated as the game progresses, as it's almost a meme in how excessive it is.

So lets take the CC/stam/retaliate factor out of it for now and push back to 2 DPS cleric and a Heal cleric, all running DPS Ulti.  That's a wide spread of on hit effects, some passive almost inconsequential stuns (though breaking attack chains for some classes can be nice if you're not wasting your own cast cycles to interrupt theirs),  Those on hit effects can pair with something like templar aura on hit heals, or simply stack effects like bleed and poisons etc for other classes.

It's at a point at THAT point where you CAN theory craft it, but when the test server allows for actual free vessels and free disciplines, it's best to USE it.  That moment has passed right now, but it'll come again.

 

As to how to play the situation, there's a lot of options there, in that 2 dps + 1 heal cleric have 3 shields that heal, and you can body block engage for your 2 other class members.  Or you can void off the shields entirely and go for a dash and dump approach.  It's really up to what you're able to think of, and what the fight sitaution is, what works in seiges isn't what works in skirmishes etc.  I understand that mostly ONLY seige combat exists right now, but that's not what we're going to be dealing with by release.  

As to the dps cleric being immobile, I'm curious as to what the exact meaning of that is.  It has VERY few animation locks, most things can be done on the move.  If it's meant that it's immobile because of shield, well shielding is optional, so there's choices to be made there.

As a complete side note, the range of Majors they can take is very different than other dps classes, and while a white vessel can not multi spec, a gold with combat training is vastly more capable.  I find that people look at white vessels and limit them selves to 1 stat cluster, but actual use case for theory craft should call on 2 to 3 stats.  Lots of classes have everything they need contained in 1 stat, and perform super well at low quality, other classes "want" more stats and wont perform with out quality vessels/training etc.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, RunningWithRandoms said:

1 - So the interesting thing about dps cleric is that it's Ulti is on half cost, and has a very strong up time.

 

2 - Because it affects basic attack as a mechanic in a meaningful way, it integrates with MANY minor disciplines in meaningful ways.  There are a lot of on last hit apply effect's available there.

 

3 - It also increases the blind rate significantly from the associated synergy skill, but you won't see that being a big effect with out combat training due to low crit chance, that's however changed partially by buff rotation, as the recast from

 

4 - multiple clerics will ramp crit for the whole team up... 3 clerics in group will maintain a solid crit chain for this for 15-20 seconds as an example.

5 - So in essence, with 2 DPS clerics, and a heal cleric, you've got double blinds firing with a 3rd less meaningful one, high on hit stuns going into a grouping, along with relatively condensed damage output, though not huge.  Adding that flash cast into the 3rd hit on repeat does significant boost tho.  
 

6 - As to the dps cleric being immobile, I'm curious as to what the exact meaning of that is.  It has VERY few animation locks, most things can be done on the move.  If it's meant that it's immobile because of shield, well shielding is optional, so there's choices to be made there.

7 - As a complete side note, the range of Majors they can take is very different than other dps classes.

8 - I find that people look at white vessels and limit them selves to 1 stat cluster, but actual use case for theory craft should call on 2 to 3 stats.  Lots of classes have everything they need contained in 1 stat, and perform super well at low quality, other classes "want" more stats and wont perform with out quality vessels/training etc.

Hey there!

I see you put a lot of effort into theorycrafting, I appreciate that.

Let me comment on some of your points though, I don't want to hammer you down, but some of us have played this game nonstop for years now, testing more or less every little thing.

This does not mean that new eyes can't find something we haven't found - so keep it up!

 

I have nummerized the places I want to comment on - see the quote above.

 

1 - A lot of classes have their ulti at half cost, some promotions even have a 350 soul power cost, so almost 3 casts in 1 full bar.

Regarding the uptime, you have to remember to factor in enemies CCing you as well, if it's up for 20 seconds that is maybe 10s or less actual uptime for you in real fights.

 

2 - A lot of the 'apply on 3rd hit' disciplines you talk about, does not apply to ranged attacks. That's just how it is currently.

 

3 - If you haven't noticed, you get a debuff that prevents you from applying a new blind effect for 20 seconds, after using your first blind. So the power just turns into a flash cast dmg power at that point.

 

4 - I am not sure the enhanced illuminate also applies the crit buff to your entire group. Seems unlikely.

 

5 - Remember there are diminishing return on CC, 3 of the same type and the target becomes immune for 8 seconds. On another note, apart from the root, all of the CC you'll provide is single target. And people can probably retaliate 3 times in a row (some classes way more), so in a group setting, I do not see that being viable, as Aoe CC is way more valuable and effective.

 

6 - Considering you have no increased dodge regen, only a mobility power if you go Elken/Centaur - Then yes you are considered very immobile.

Here's an example of a mobile dps:

 

7 - After thorough testing of all the Major disciplines, I can say with confidence, that all the strongest disciplines apply to all dps classes equally. And even then you might want to consider going 1 defensive and 1 offensive, as many does. There are no cleric only disciplines, so the viable builds on radical will be - and is the same as on other dps builds.

 

8 - The low amount of attributes you gain from a white vessel directs the way you use them. Going half and half, while being severely under the cap of your attack power, would make you a subpar dps, to a vessel that goes full after their attack power attribute.

It's first in late game, with high end gear and vessels you'll look to going different attributes because you hit the stat caps before you've used all your points.

Edited by Yumx

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1. it's 30 seconds.  Last I looked anyway, I'll have to confirm.  It is also recastable with in 10 seconds of it going down last time I was on one, meaning that it has an ~75% uptime if you keep yourself ticking over.

2.  I haven't seen any equipable last hit disciplines not actually work, I'll have to confirm however to cut some of the options out if that's true.

3. I forgot about that tbh.  Thanks.

4. It appears to, I'll confirm however.

5. It's not about having the CC last exactly, it's about breaking the stam/retaliate break point, so given that most people don't use stun, and rely on others, if your little group can shread the retaliate capacity of a core group at the front of the enemy formation it should be valid.  The stuns are on hit effects that DO appear to land more frequently with increased control power.  They proc very often.  Most often 2 stuns per 3 hit chain when given 3 targets.

6.  That appears to be using escape artist and rolling off the inherently high crit of the duelist?  If so, the dps cleric can do this, assuming 4 is true. (I'm not 100% on equipable status for cleric actually, I'll have to confirm.  But perhaps it's not using that?

7.  As to the "strongest dps disciplines" If you're simply looking to maximize DPS NUMBERS, that's true, but dps in pve is a race, dps in pvp is a competition.  The difference being, one is a simple stat climb, the other is about reliable output vs damage taken, vs sabotage style skills.  The dps with the highest number on a target dummy isn't usually the best PvP dps in practicality, because they tend to lack (not always in every game tho) the capacity to sabotage/debuff/burst etc with out falling prey to those exact things.  Regardless, there's always room for SOME race dps style assassination players, but a core backbone of competative dps classes tends to fair better in any comparative match ups. ie: +- 50% numbers.IMHO anyway, with experience across a very wide range of pvp centric games.

8. 100%,  some classes will be happy at 1 stat cap, some are going to really outshine them when vessel quality and gear is standard epic gold tho, where they can have a 2nd stat in play.  When it comes to low grade vessels, there's specific classes that won't function at all really due to other classes having all important base metrics housed under a single stat, while they're missing chunks of dps due to the split.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

As to the mobility, it's only 1 option though, I think the utility of a shield spam that has on hit heal is something in and of itself worth exploring.

 

To answer 7 more directly, it's in relation to the point about PvP and PvE dps roles being different from each other.  I am not by any means saying that another class wont push more numbers.  Even with the eventual fixes to damage types, and likely lowering costs for attacks/casts etc, the dps cleric will never be tuned to out perform the target dummy numbers of other classes, it's just not in the design of it.

However, other dps classes dont have on hit ranged, and shield access...  both of which are boosted for cleric.  The choice of dps cleric tree is not about maxing the numbers of output, it's about leveraging that on hit x 3 HIGH uptime, mana regenning, ulti.

I dunno, I think people see DPS CLERIC and assume it needs to kill target dummies... perhaps it's better to look at it as Radical and NOT as DPS, because it seems to make people think that the high numbers is the only metric.  But that's not how pvp works.  You kind of pointed that fact out tho in your description of point 1.

Edited by RunningWithRandoms

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Posted (edited)

If you’re using your shield to block a lot you’re not going to be able to retaliate (you will have less Stam than a healing cleric with max spirit) and block for less (since you will have less con ergo less block bonus).  You won’t have enough support power to make the heals from blocking worthwhile.  The barrier from retaliate will be higher than the heals you would get.  (It’s 500 base plus whatever you’re barrier bonus is from con)

Edited by mandalore

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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