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Franck83

Improve the character creation risk

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Hi all crowfall team,

 

I didn't play crowfall since 1 year now, and i'm really pleased by the changes made. The talent tree, animations smoothness, graphics (i'm testing the 5.9, all really love the graphic balance between cartoon/realistic style ). War tribes gives more PVE stuff and fights are more dynamic. Upgrade camps and forts are so cool Players scoreboard is really funny!! So congratulation for all your hard work, it seems to become good wine. I have so many things to say but this topic will focus on character dev.

I was very excited to start a new character several day ago. There so many characters building concepts that can make your build unique (critical hit, damage, owers, runes, attack power, talent tree upgrades, passive skills, crafting armor and weapons, vessels...), and i would like to share my impression on the char building system which is the main game core. I was a shadowbane player and the true liberty given on char creation was absolutely brillant, so brillant that it casted out pleasure for playing another mmorpg game. I didn't even find any game that gives so much liberty and creativity. So when i heard about crowfall, i was so excited to see all this veteran team back again.

So several days ago, i started a ranger. And i told myself : let's see how we can customize your character. So we have many options. Focus on constitution, dexterity or strength. I chose full dexterity to improve critical hit chance, attack powers and armor (some reminds me of high defensive rangers from shadowbane).

Even at level 30, this choice didn't make real changes on my char. My char earned 2% on armor resist, yes...not so much, 15% on critical hit chance, and some attack power. Finally, if i went on full strength, it would give me a flat damage 5-7 % increase. On Shadowbane, a strength ranger was completely different gameplay from a dexterity ranger. Most of the time you go health regen and dps on a strength ranger. On a dexterity ranger, you focus on high defensive to dodge everything, but if you don't go very high def or if you meet your counter build, you were completely destroyed. That was so fun. Sometimes you win 5vs1, and sometimes a simple scout can kill you. The risk/reward was absolutely crazy. So on crowfall, attributes don't really impact gameplay. Ok, anyway we have the talent system and the last 3 subclass choices. Yes, but it doesn't impact that much the gameplay, some resist % on this branch, or some dps % on this one, one more power. The runes can customize your building too. I really love that some runes give gameplay changes (bard...). Of course, we can make some synergies. but i have the feel that everything seems confined, too much controlled.

All the game mechanics are here, but we can't really push creativity. I can't make a regen ranger, a high defense one, no kind of exotic builds... The talent system went in a good direction from a pure passive tree. A pure passive tree gives all players same stuff at the end. The talent system gives more liberty and choices make sense. But we need to go further. The crowfall team don't need to think about all char builds possible and want to control them. Of course, balance is needed. But creativity and exotic builds should be possible.

On Shadowbane, several years after the char creation, new builds appeared. I remember a high defense templar, full intelligence, with 4 damage overtime power that can win against 10vs1 (all fully leveled). But just a simple mana drain can completely destroy its strategy, but only 6 months after the counter appears in the builds. It was epic moments. The High defense sentinel that survived against its own kamikaze bomb... A 5/6 high def intelligence based sentinels rush could completely destroy a 30/40 stacked players. Another group of sentinel could rush and fully drain all mana around, that fully dispelled a complete army of healers. You had the full specs groups too (xbow groups, debuff and fire damage groups...). That was completely insane exotic builds, but it worked. It was epic and fabulous! Char creation and build was the key to victory. Thinking of a build was rewardful. And we need to have the chance to live this kind of crazy moments to invest time on playing.

I wish the crowfall team all success because crowfall is far away games on the gameplay deepness. So mechanics are here, progress has been made toward this direction, just free the creation risk balance. Leave more freedom and choices. There will be bad choices, but some epic moments.

Hope this help !

 

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8 hours ago, Franck83 said:

So we have many options. Focus on constitution, dexterity or strength.

If you add to Constitution, you get more health, nothing more.  This does not affect defense capacity in any way, only maximum health, which most Rangers have little demand for (maybe a Warden).

If you add to Strength, you gain more Final Damage Modifier.  This is not attack power.  This is a 1.0% at 20str, 1.5% at 30str bonus to the final damage calculation when compensating for enemy resistances.  You could almost call this "armor piercing" and at least be more accurate (it isn't that either).  Some classes can enjoy this as an added bonus, a Ranger has very little reason to care, at all.

If you add Dexterity, you gain more attack power, resistance, and critical chance.  This is the "do everything" stat for a Ranger (the "attack power" portion is moved to different stats depending on which stat class you are playing.  The attack power stat is always first on the list for that class).  This stat lets you do more damage, this stat has features to (slightly) reduce damage taken (about as important in this stat as Final Damage Modifier, it doesn't do much because of the low numbers, but its an added bonus for classes that care about Dexterity).  The critical chance is the golden stat that takes your hit damage and makes it hit better more often (making this stat potentially liked by non-dexterity classes).

The second stat actually loved by Rangers (for those who don't just dump everything into one area) is Intelligence.  This is not for the healing modifier attribute (like the final damage modifier and resist all, the number's impact is low, let alone rangers not being partial to healing).  Since critical hit rate is a big deal, stacking up that critical hit damage is liked by some players.

Other than that is considerations such as crafting/gathering's impact on stats.  But on a Ranger, ignoring Spirit is still a good choice (not a healer class).

8 hours ago, Franck83 said:

There so many characters building concepts that can make your build unique (critical hit, damage, owers, runes, attack power, talent tree upgrades, passive skills, crafting armor and weapons, vessels...)

This is where some of the changes gain impact.  There was a lot of non-dependancy on strictly character level (mostly it's choice of promotion class), but a lot of flavor by a player's ability to deal with everything thrown at them.  Getting their vessels done right, finding the right material to get the right buffs on their gears (at highest quality), deciding on the best arrangement of profession growth, and (for the most flavor) picking their disciplines.  In fact, that "Disciplines" factor does most of what you are asking for by itself.  The right choices for that stuff can swiftly revolutionize how a class is played, to the point when it's counter-play takes on a whole new meta (some currently more preferred than others).  Would strongly recommend looking into it.

And no, if your Knight equips Arcane Archer or Sharpshooter, you still depend on Strength for basic damage, not Dexterity.  But that's one way to be a strength build archer (with a shield on your back), at the very least.


Milla's Elemental Mastery [Ravens & Crows - See "About Me" Section]:

Spoiler
  • Rosaline: Elemental of Earth, Female Wood-Elf Earth-Keeper, Political Main.
  • Ametrine: Elemental of Fire, Female Nethari Fire-Sanctifer, Endurance Main.
  • Sylphine: Elemental of Air, Female Fae Storm-Caller, Combat Main.
  • Cyandine: Elemental of Water, Female High-Elf Frost-Weaver, Tactical Main.
  • Lumirine: Elemental of Light, Female Human Holy-Crusader, Support Assist.
  • Ebontine: Elemental of Dark, Female Half-Elf Moon-Warden, Survival Assist.

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"If you add to Constitution, you get more health, nothing more.  This does not affect defense capacity in any way, only maximum health, which most Rangers have little demand for (maybe a Warden)."

Constitution impacts Barrier bonus, also Blocking IIRC.

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Ty for your explantations lanie, although i understand how the mechanics work. The issue is that it impacts gameplay by a minor margin. 

 

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Everything in the game is minor incremental changes.  1 or two things makes very very little difference. 

Overall builds with all factors taken into account. can make a much larger difference. Each color upgrade is small. But from white to green is the largest change. Once you are in Greens then blues are a very small change. And from Blue to purple is a small change. And from purple to orange is a small change. But from white to orange in all phases is a massive change that creeps up on you.

unknown.png

Green to blue. no big deal. 

White stats are a bit less impressive for the starting Body. A +6 to all stats. 


unknown.png

Not the best example because the stats are different types. 


Here is a better one. Again white to blue so skipping the Green stair step. But 4 pieces of armor gear.  Each with upgrades. A Vessel with 5 separate craftable upgrades. Passive training built up over a years time.  Weapons. With color upgrades. 
unknown.png?width=811&height=669

A newb vrs a geared trained player is a flea on a mammoths back. But I have seen 5 newbs who are smart kill a really well geared player if they do it right. (Likely will lose 2-3 though in doing it)

Hope this helps. It is not 1 change that makes a difference overall. It is the sum of many moving parts.

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54 minutes ago, srathor said:

Everything in the game is minor incremental changes. 

Of course, everything needs to be seen as a whole. But this is very linear. Building choices should prevail over simple better gear.

 

 

49 minutes ago, Arkade said:

Hopefully advantages and disadvantages are still in the plans.

Yeah :) Hopefully !

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11 hours ago, Franck83 said:

So when i heard about crowfall, i was so excited to see all this veteran team back again.

On Shadowbane, a strength ranger was completely different gameplay from a dexterity ranger.

The risk/reward was absolutely crazy. So on crowfall, attributes don't really impact gameplay. 

All the game mechanics are here, but we can't really push creativity.

But creativity and exotic builds should be possible.

As someone that has played a wide variety of games, I am some what shocked that fans and ACE themselves say the character system is "complex." Most character options are just vertical stat stacking with lackluster variation. System isn't bad, but definitely very limited.

We are given enough points that we can get almost all nodes maxed in the basic tree and promo of choice. There isn't much choice beyond pick a promo. Even then, Promos are about 50/50 more stat stacking plus actual horizontal or ways to make a build more unique, however, two players with the same Class/Promo are probably going to be near identical in training.

Gear is more of the same stats.

Passive training just continues this with us further narrowing our choices on the same stats.

Disciplines add a good deal of variety but IMO they aren't nearly diverse enough, at least for viable builds. With the limited number of spots, it is likely that two people of the same class/promo will be very similar and if they pick from a similar pool of "good" Disciplines, they'll likely end up close to the same.

It would be nice if the basic stats had more benefits. Like Intel could add +Far Sight. +Str could add carry capacity. +Dex could add to a Dodge/Evade attribute. While maybe not what Shadowbane had, at least it would allow players to create more unique (min/max) builds beyond hit more, heal more, or have more health. Unless I'm mistaken and stats do contribute to a lot more. This could also apply to Crafting/Harvesting more then they do as well.

What I would like to see one day when they have time is growing the talent/passive trees. They have so many stats/attributes that could be added everywhere, they already love to copy/paste as it is.

+Far Sight, -Far Sight (if possible), +Stealth, -Food Consumption, Run Speed, Stealth Run Speed, Mount Speed, Tracking (when available), +Thorns (when it's good), etc.

List could go on and on. They already have these things in different places, but most could be added to every class talent tree. Give 50% more points to spend but double the options available. This would require actual choice, risk/reward, and more unique ways to play and build a character.

This is more of what I'd like to see with Advantages & Disadvantages when it is made.

I want more options that aren't just hit harder, take more damage, heal for more. Or even, increase the amount of what is already there. If someone wants to dump 20 points out of 50 into Health Regen, let it happen. Instead of 3-5 or whatever.

Really it's just a matter of building upon what they have and getting creative. Takes time, money, talent but they can do it.

Guess I just want more and am not totally blown away when a Knight equips a Bow Discipline and can use 3 new powers. OMG ITS A WHOLE NEW CLASS!!!! Not really. Not that they couldn't add range, speed, and other things to spice it up for the Knight specifically. Which again, would require someone choosing to become a Bow Knight and not a Knight that happens to use a Bow.

24 minutes ago, Arkade said:

Hopefully advantages and disadvantages are still in the plans.

They appear to still be planned but no word on what they'll end up like. I'm guessing just more +Str/Dex/Con. ZZzzzzz

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8 minutes ago, APE said:

Most character options are just vertical stat stacking with lackluster variation. System isn't bad, but definitely very limited.

Nice resume.

10 minutes ago, APE said:

It would be nice if the basic stats had more benefits.

Yes for example. As a whole, a better character building differentiation/risk/reward system.

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2 minutes ago, Franck83 said:

Nice resume.

Yes for example. As a whole, a better character building differentiation/risk/reward system.

This game really lacks risk/reward considering everything going on. Originally they seemed to paint it that we could "screw up" and that we had to specialize. Some changes have made it almost impossible to screw up beyond wasting time and having to redo something. On the flip side, we can't really fully min/max besides stats to go all in on a particular way to play. I can't run really fast through training or regen a lot of health or be hard to detect while stealthed anymore than everyone else doing the same basic training. Hard caps, limited options with Vessels/Gear remove going far into one thing or another. I'd like to be able to dodge 75% of attacks but hit like a wet noodle that doesn't just mean play a Plate class with high resists and a tanky promo.

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5 hours ago, DocHollidaze said:

"If you add to Constitution, you get more health, nothing more.  This does not affect defense capacity in any way, only maximum health, which most Rangers have little demand for (maybe a Warden)."

Constitution impacts Barrier bonus, also Blocking IIRC.

Rangers don't exactly block with anything they have, and have very little concern about barriers too, having nothing themselves that apply it.  At this point, you would need a Discipline in it to have much reasons to care about either.

Regarding "Risk", I'm pretty sure this is why they have stated that they are considering removing the ability to remove disciplines.  Sure, we can't at this point recover equip disciplines, but if they prevent the removal, that means if you want to change your discipline, you need to remake your vessel.  That's going to cause people to "reroll" quite often.


Milla's Elemental Mastery [Ravens & Crows - See "About Me" Section]:

Spoiler
  • Rosaline: Elemental of Earth, Female Wood-Elf Earth-Keeper, Political Main.
  • Ametrine: Elemental of Fire, Female Nethari Fire-Sanctifer, Endurance Main.
  • Sylphine: Elemental of Air, Female Fae Storm-Caller, Combat Main.
  • Cyandine: Elemental of Water, Female High-Elf Frost-Weaver, Tactical Main.
  • Lumirine: Elemental of Light, Female Human Holy-Crusader, Support Assist.
  • Ebontine: Elemental of Dark, Female Half-Elf Moon-Warden, Survival Assist.

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15 hours ago, Franck83 said:

So on crowfall, attributes don't really impact gameplay.

This is my gripe too. Waiting on skils (and choosing which ones) matters A LOT.  Equipment (armor, runes, etc) matters A LOT.   Attributes barely make any difference at all.  That was in 5.8.6.

It seems like its super easy to fix: adjust some multiplier somewhere and the build complexity would go way up.  So perhaps they have it dialed down in order to balance the other systems first.  I'm hoping that's what is going on.

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10 hours ago, Lanie said:

have very little concern about barriers too, having nothing themselves that apply it.  At this point, you would need a Discipline in it to have much reasons to care about either.

 

You mean except for their ult which has near constant uptime while melee attacking and provides a large barrier and lifesteal?

I feel like you don't have nearly as much game knowledge as you think you do based on your confident tone, to be making proclamations.

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2 hours ago, DocHollidaze said:

You mean except for their ult which has near constant uptime while melee attacking and provides a large barrier and lifesteal?

I feel like you don't have nearly as much game knowledge as you think you do based on your confident tone, to be making proclamations.

I just feel you might be losing the context for the details.  A thing is there, but a heavy investment in Con for a thing shouldn't even be a thought when considering the weight of other things, with consideration of their primary stat and then even secondarily considering important things like criticals.  Someone making a ranger purely for the idea of "I can barrier well" sounds absolutely ridiculous, even if there were Disciplines to barrier to an incredible degree (which would currently be still in heavy counter to a certain existing discipline).  This would be far more acceptable for a tank class instead, wearing heavy armor, with an assortment of defensive abilities (not just one).

Then we consider the OP's original proclamation, where they were saying there wasn't enough potential variability.  I then put into context the exact degree there is limited variability in stat builds, to make sure that they didn't have high expectations of a pure Str build ranger, and filled out the spectrum in turn.  Claiming viability in Con build Ranger is then itself arguing with the OP's original statement.  If you disagree with the OP, you should direct your counter points to the OP's original statement, to continue disputing that variable stat builds are more viable than was being presented.  They would have need of that information.

12 hours ago, Brindylln said:

This is my gripe too. Waiting on skils (and choosing which ones) matters A LOT.  Equipment (armor, runes, etc) matters A LOT.   Attributes barely make any difference at all.  That was in 5.8.6.

However, most people seem to agree.  Skill selection and equipment are what defines the build.

12 hours ago, Brindylln said:

It seems like its super easy to fix: adjust some multiplier somewhere and the build complexity would go way up.  So perhaps they have it dialed down in order to balance the other systems first.  I'm hoping that's what is going on.

I'm still feeling that they will be going with a more gear-styled variability.  This is going to be especially true if Disciplines become hard-locked once equipped.  But if gear is going to carry the full weight of this, gear needs a lot more variability built into it.  Right now, it's a bit stale.


Milla's Elemental Mastery [Ravens & Crows - See "About Me" Section]:

Spoiler
  • Rosaline: Elemental of Earth, Female Wood-Elf Earth-Keeper, Political Main.
  • Ametrine: Elemental of Fire, Female Nethari Fire-Sanctifer, Endurance Main.
  • Sylphine: Elemental of Air, Female Fae Storm-Caller, Combat Main.
  • Cyandine: Elemental of Water, Female High-Elf Frost-Weaver, Tactical Main.
  • Lumirine: Elemental of Light, Female Human Holy-Crusader, Support Assist.
  • Ebontine: Elemental of Dark, Female Half-Elf Moon-Warden, Survival Assist.

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