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Kavsby

Lack of weapon / armour diversity

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Apologies if this topic has been previously addressed.

Being relatively new to the game, I am no expert but I do get a sense there is a lack of exciting weapon / armour options and the progression seems a bit flat to me. Sure, the game is based around grinding for better quality materials and then crafting better items with various stats on the back of that, but it is a bit lacklustre in my opinion and I fully understand that PvP balance needs to be taken into account, which is by no means easy.

Therefore, it may be interesting to explore some sort of unique or set items that have some magical qualities / abilities that the vessel can take advantage when equipping them. For example, the type of items you see in the Diablo universe or in World of Warcraft where equipping those items can completely change the gameplay of that character. Having some sort of optionality in items would, I feel, make the gameplay a bit richer rather than just crafting an item with a bit more damage and hence equipping that.

Would love to get peoples thoughts on this.

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While fun in a singeplayer scenario in a competitive PvP sandbox that sort of variety will likely lead to even more hard counter build issues and balancing difficulties. Not to mention probably increasing the grinding required to reach a “finished” build. Possibly even worse, gear can be quickly changed and such abilities would result in chasing imbalances and hard counters with minimal trade off.


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The options for build diversity/mechanics that you speak of are really supposed to be controlled by Crowfall's Discipline system. Right now, the major disciplines are what determine that "flavor" aspect you seek, but I will admit that very many of the disciplines themselves are lackluster. They haven't made an official balance pass on that, or damn near anything else really, so far. I think they also plan on integrating all of the weapon disciplines into the skill tree itself later on, but that may have been scrapped (others with more up-to-date info can correct me if I'm wrong here). 

As of right now, you can equip a weapon discipline, for example bows, on a character that couldn't otherwise use it and it grants access to a ranged option. I think each weapon is limited in a case-by-case way concerning who the discipline is able to be equipped by though. 

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14 minutes ago, Duffy said:

While fun in a singeplayer scenario in a competitive PvP sandbox that sort of variety will likely lead to even more hard counter build issues and balancing difficulties. Not to mention probably increasing the grinding required to reach a “finished” build. Possibly even worse, gear can be quickly changed and such abilities would result in chasing imbalances and hard counters with minimal trade off.

What Kavsky told is more about gameplay difference. Balance issues must not drive to a flat gameplay. I agree.

For example, heavy armor can have weight penalties (maybe movement speed, dexterity, weight or inventory size, dodging points or regen speed...). Maybe you can link these penalties with the strength. An armor may have a minimum required strength to be worn. On crafting side, once may choose to build a very heavy armor with nice resist but counterparts. Or maybe a quite light plate with special ore). On sb, you got light heavy armor for elven for example with less dexterity penalities.

So many ideas can be brought here.

 

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Back in Siege Perilous, before crafting was a thing, we had 3 types of armor and each armor type gave a different buff to each archetype (it was before the race/class split). An enchanting profession was supposed to eventually be created to add these types of things to armor. Who knows if that's still on the plate for launch, but I would expect we'll see it at some point in the future.

This article talks about it:

https://www.crowfallgold.com/news/crowfall-experiments-with-armor

Although we don’t have a crafting system in place yet, one of the ideas that we’ve been toying with is “armor set enchantments,” which would likely manifest as a new branch of the crafting tree.

The basic idea is that you would collect a particular set of armor pieces (gauntlet A + breastplate B + boot C + helmet D) and then you can enchant that set with a particular interesting spell effect that only triggers when the entire set is worn by a particular character (i.e. the effect might only work for characters of a particular archetype, discipline or with certain skill prerequisites).

These are the "enchantments" we had:

Champion
  • Full plate - Reduces time to activate Hateful regeneration effect.
  • Full leather - Ultimate Warrior increases critical chance by 15% per activation.
  • Full mail - Applies Daze effect to targets on each swing.

Legionnaire

  • Full plate - Eternal Rage increases attack and support power by 150.
  • Full leather - Recover 25 stamina when Rear Kick becomes available.
  • Full mail – Battle Cry also removes Armor Break status from group members.

Confessor

  • Full plate - Fervor no longer reduces your armor and knocks down enemies in an area around you.
  • Full leather - Righteousness procs increase critical chance by 5% for 30 seconds stacking to a maximum of 50%.
  • Full mail - Enemies afflicted with Sin who strike you in melee are dazed (30 second cooldown).

Ranger

  • Full plate - Rapid Fire and Slice n Dice add 3000 Barrier while active.
  • Full leather - Using Spin Step boosts your movement speed by 20% for 3 seconds.
  • Full mail - Generate 15 energy when struck with a melee attack (up to once per second).

Knight

  • Full plate - Resolve kicks in at 25%.
  • Full leather - Pursuit boosts movement speed by 20% for 3 seconds.
  • Full mail - Shield Slam increases your critical chance by 20% for 10 seconds.

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4 minutes ago, Arkade said:

Back in Siege Perilous, before crafting was a thing, we had 3 types of armor and each armor type gave a different buff to each archetype (it was before the race/class split). An enchanting profession was supposed to eventually be created to add these types of things to armor. Who knows if that's still on the plate for launch, but I would expect we'll see it at some point in the future.

This article talks about it:

https://www.crowfallgold.com/news/crowfall-experiments-with-armor

 

 

Maybe part of this can be brought by using additive enchantments slots during crafting.

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2 hours ago, Samulus said:

The options for build diversity/mechanics that you speak of are really supposed to be controlled by Crowfall's Discipline system. Right now, the major disciplines are what determine that "flavor" aspect you seek, but I will admit that very many of the disciplines themselves are lackluster. They haven't made an official balance pass on that, or damn near anything else really, so far. I think they also plan on integrating all of the weapon disciplines into the skill tree itself later on, but that may have been scrapped (others with more up-to-date info can correct me if I'm wrong here). 

As of right now, you can equip a weapon discipline, for example bows, on a character that couldn't otherwise use it and it grants access to a ranged option. I think each weapon is limited in a case-by-case way concerning who the discipline is able to be equipped by though. 

I get that, but my opinion is that it just seems a bit boring with everyone running around looking the same and having the exact same items (+/- some stat variances). I feel that this is an obvious area to make the game richer with more depth and variety

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I think the Runic Weapon system could open up possibilities for this type of thing in the future. Rare recipe drops for creating items with special bonuses or ability grants. This might even be a motivation to go to into a particular Campaign, if you knew there was a rare recipe "treasure" to hunt there (i.e. Jingletap's Sword of Bard Speed 😂)


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Just now, miraluna said:

I think the Runic Weapon system could open up possibilities for this type of thing in the future. Rare recipe drops for creating items with special bonuses or ability grants. This might even be a motivation to go to into a particular Campaign, if you knew there was a rare recipe "treasure" to hunt there (i.e. Jingletap's Sword of Bard Speed 😂)

Yes, I really like the idea of that. With even better recipes the closer you go to The Hunger i.e. the dregs. Even better if that can be extended to armour too

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I agree. In the case of the Knight, it makes no difference, really, if you're using a Short Sword or a Long Sword or an Axe or a Mace. Well, choosing between a mace or a Sword is a little bit of a choice (crushing dmg vs slashing dmg), but that just feels like a very shallow choice. I'd very much like it if each weapon had a unique lmb. That, to me, would make the choice a bit more meaningful. Maybe the Axe lmb adds a bleed, while the long sword adds a slow. That's much more interesting that "Do I want crushing dmg or slashing dmg" (though, if they add a system where you can change the dmg type of weapons, that choice becomes moot)

But this just comes down to animation time, and how much ACE wants to spend on it.


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5 minutes ago, coolster50 said:

I agree. In the case of the Knight, it makes no difference, really, if you're using a Short Sword or a Long Sword or an Axe or a Mace. Well, choosing between a mace or a Sword is a little bit of a choice (crushing dmg vs slashing dmg), but that just feels like a very shallow choice. I'd very much like it if each weapon had a unique lmb. That, to me, would make the choice a bit more meaningful. Maybe the Axe lmb adds a bleed, while the long sword adds a slow. That's much more interesting that "Do I want crushing dmg or slashing dmg" (though, if they add a system where you can change the dmg type of weapons, that choice becomes moot)

But this just comes down to animation time, and how much ACE wants to spend on it.

On sb, weapon powers were linked to weapon type.

Swords : attack debuff, crushing resistance debuff, snare (https://morloch.shadowbaneemulator.com/index.php?title=Sword_Mastery)

Hammers : damage debuff, piercing resistance debuff, powerblock (most use for this power), stun https://morloch.shadowbaneemulator.com/index.php?title=Hammer_Mastery

Axes : slashing debuff, attack debuff

Bows : defense debuff, snare.

And so on...polearms, daggers, staffs, spears, unarmed...

No all classes got the same weapon skill on every weapons https://morloch.shadowbaneemulator.com/index.php?title=Ranger

And One handed weapon powers were different than double !!

Sb was so deep on this side !

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3 hours ago, Franck83 said:

On sb, weapon powers were linked to weapon type.

Swords : attack debuff, crushing resistance debuff, snare (https://morloch.shadowbaneemulator.com/index.php?title=Sword_Mastery)

Hammers : damage debuff, piercing resistance debuff, powerblock (most use for this power), stun https://morloch.shadowbaneemulator.com/index.php?title=Hammer_Mastery

Axes : slashing debuff, attack debuff

Bows : defense debuff, snare.

And so on...polearms, daggers, staffs, spears, unarmed...

No all classes got the same weapon skill on every weapons https://morloch.shadowbaneemulator.com/index.php?title=Ranger

And One handed weapon powers were different than double !!

Sb was so deep on this side !

Could just be like the current Arrow system. Every weapon type could have a chance to proc or every X number of attacks did something.

Crush - stun, Slash - Bleed, Pierce - Arm Debuff, etc. This takes away some of the extra work needed in making more powers or whatever. Could apply to Books/Staff as well. Different types of wood/paper/bindings result in different procs.

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2 hours ago, APE said:

Different types of wood/paper/bindings result in different procs.

I think this statement has more of a potential than the base idea.  Right now, the material used has a "I give you more of this stat" effect.  But if materials shifted to a more integral feature of play, that could have a huge impact.  This could even be more resound if it was in a system where it calculates which material was used more, and pulls from a chart of features related to that material, picking one at random when the gear (weapon, armor, shield, accessory, ect) was finally crafted.  White crafts have zero features, green crafts have 1 feature, blue has 2, purple has 2 (but one of them is in the "exceptional" category), and orange has 2 (both are in the "exceptional" category).

In this, a "feature" is like "all attacks with this weapon have a 10% chance on hit to randomly teleport the target anywhere within 20m from where they are standing".

Or, for armor "25% chance that a melee attacker will take double the damage caused instead of the wearer".

Or, for accessories "10% on dodge to move at 300% speed for 10 seconds".

But again, each one is random, taking from a catalog of like 30 options for that category of equipment, that is based upon using mostly a specific material type.  Gear features could be rather neat in this.

.. but unfortunately, it would also make the entire crafting process even more complicated and could make gear balancing even harder.

10 hours ago, Duffy said:

While fun in a singeplayer scenario in a competitive PvP sandbox that sort of variety will likely lead to even more hard counter build issues and balancing difficulties. Not to mention probably increasing the grinding required to reach a “finished” build. Possibly even worse, gear can be quickly changed and such abilities would result in chasing imbalances and hard counters with minimal trade off.

So, Duffy is still correct.


Milla's Elemental Mastery [Ravens & Crows - See "About Me" Section]:

Spoiler
  • Rosaline: Elemental of Earth, Female Wood-Elf Earth-Keeper, Political Main.
  • Ametrine: Elemental of Fire, Female Nethari Fire-Sanctifer, Endurance Main.
  • Sylphine: Elemental of Air, Female Fae Storm-Caller, Combat Main.
  • Cyandine: Elemental of Water, Female High-Elf Frost-Weaver, Tactical Main.
  • Lumirine: Elemental of Light, Female Human Holy-Crusader, Support Assist.
  • Ebontine: Elemental of Dark, Female Half-Elf Moon-Warden, Survival Assist.

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14 minutes ago, Lanie said:

. but unfortunately, it would also make the entire crafting process even more complicated and could make gear balancing even harder.

So, Duffy is still correct.

Not sure it would make crafting more complicated in a bad way. The process would be the same but the choices and outcomes would be much greater. Harvesting for X instead of Y or AB instead of BC isn't different. Also grinding for the ideal best "finished" build is a choice and something to strive for or not. There should be some reward for the effort.

I'm a fan of horizontal play so for me the current design of just stack whatever stat gives the highest/lowest numbers does little for me. I'd much rather have options that change how I play or let me play a particular way. This is rather lacking in the MMO space. Camelot Unchained create-a-spell system has a long ways to go but seems a lot more interesting at least on the basic level.

However, what I like about ACE's design is it can always been added to over time. They have limited resources but if the game was to be a success, these are the types of things that could bring a lot more to gameplay and reasons to keep experimenting and logging in.

ACE said from the start that they didn't want to balance everything. Also said that if certain things were too powerful, that they'd let them run their course and if people didn't figure out counters and what not, they'd step in (Something like that). I believe Classes/Powers/Disciplines could use a lot more variety to spice it up. With the limited options that characters have (Discipline/Passive/Power Slots), we can only do so much. Tweaking this should be easier than games where each class has 50+ spells.

I'd much rather have players experiment and come up with crazy broken builds that devs have to tweak occasionally vs meh lets just keep everything mundane to pretend things are balanced even though they aren't in a MMO.

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11 hours ago, coolster50 said:

I'd very much like it if each weapon had a unique lmb. That, to me, would make the choice a bit more meaningful. Maybe the Axe lmb adds a bleed, while the long sword adds a slow

I honestly don't think this is too much out of the way.
Right now equipping a staff on druid changes your LMB to orbs from spark. Surely, even if the animation stays the same, they could different effects or something.
However that may take away from discs that give those effects on basic attacks, so who knows.


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12 hours ago, APE said:

Not sure it would make crafting more complicated in a bad way. The process would be the same but the choices and outcomes would be much greater. Harvesting for X instead of Y or AB instead of BC isn't different. Also grinding for the ideal best "finished" build is a choice and something to strive for or not. There should be some reward for the effort.

In the big picture, this is a good idea. In the short term, this has a few struggles.  I mean, after writing all of that to develop the idea, to then conclude with a statement turning the whole thing down, obviously I wasn't dismissing the concept in its whole.  But this will really need to wait for much later, it's too complicated to add at this point, when a lot of other things are trying to build the foundation model for related systems.

12 hours ago, APE said:

I'm a fan of horizontal play so for me the current design of just stack whatever stat gives the highest/lowest numbers does little for me. I'd much rather have options that change how I play or let me play a particular way. This is rather lacking in the MMO space. Camelot Unchained create-a-spell system has a long ways to go but seems a lot more interesting at least on the basic level.

As per some of my other posts reflecting positively on the discipline system, I'm quite a strong supporter of side-loaded elements and "horizontal play".  I've never been one for "growing numbers" as much as "stacking features".  So don't worry, I have a considerably strong support for this perspective.

12 hours ago, APE said:

However, what I like about ACE's design is it can always been added to over time. They have limited resources but if the game was to be a success, these are the types of things that could bring a lot more to gameplay and reasons to keep experimenting and logging in.

ACE said from the start that they didn't want to balance everything. Also said that if certain things were too powerful, that they'd let them run their course and if people didn't figure out counters and what not, they'd step in (Something like that). I believe Classes/Powers/Disciplines could use a lot more variety to spice it up. With the limited options that characters have (Discipline/Passive/Power Slots), we can only do so much. Tweaking this should be easier than games where each class has 50+ spells.

I'd much rather have players experiment and come up with crazy broken builds that devs have to tweak occasionally vs meh lets just keep everything mundane to pretend things are balanced even though they aren't in a MMO.

If by overtime, you mean "can worry about this later on in the process", then we are in agreement.  If you are replacing "can" with "should", we're probably still in agreement.  Effectively, now is probably not the time, but yes, never doing it is a bad plan as well.  Bringing this up in late alpha, definitely before early beta, is probably a smart move.

The underlined portion of the above quote, I just finished effectively saying for myself in another topic.  So yes, I absolutely agree with that.  But creating new ways to side-load features when existing side-loading features (see Disciplines and Passive Slots) still need a lot of work... might not be the right way to keep things in scope.  It's also more complex as it will require vast new mechanisms to achieve.  Getting the simpler fundamental stuff done first is probably best.


Milla's Elemental Mastery [Ravens & Crows - See "About Me" Section]:

Spoiler
  • Rosaline: Elemental of Earth, Female Wood-Elf Earth-Keeper, Political Main.
  • Ametrine: Elemental of Fire, Female Nethari Fire-Sanctifer, Endurance Main.
  • Sylphine: Elemental of Air, Female Fae Storm-Caller, Combat Main.
  • Cyandine: Elemental of Water, Female High-Elf Frost-Weaver, Tactical Main.
  • Lumirine: Elemental of Light, Female Human Holy-Crusader, Support Assist.
  • Ebontine: Elemental of Dark, Female Half-Elf Moon-Warden, Survival Assist.

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