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Pann

Vessels live stream May 16 - Official discussion thread

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Posted (edited)

@vkromas will be focusing on vessels during a live stream next Thursday (May 16) from 11 am - 12 pm CDT. Please let her know in this thread what you'd like to hear more about during the stream. 

UPDATE 5/16
The VOD is available now on Twitch. We'll clean it up, take out the unnecessary bits and upload to YouTube when we can, hopefully within the next week. 

Thanks again to everyone who posted questions here and joined us for the stream! I promise I won't ever forget my tablet again. heh

Edited by Pann
Updated with VOD link

Valerie "Pann" Massey, Director of Community
 

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Posted (edited)

Will attribute modifiers be adjusted in the future to give more viable choice in character builds? As is, for most classes attribute priority is Class attribute > Int > Con >>> anything else. Is seeing Str Rangers or Int Assassins as specialty builds on the table?

Balance between racial powers and bonus attribute points is falling heavily in favor of powers. Races weighted toward bonus attribute points (1/2 Elf, Stoneborn) are out of favor. Once crafted vessels are on the table, bonus attributes are an afterthought vs powers. Is there a plan to resolve this?

In before "Where's muh goggles?"

Edited by VaMei

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If they manage to craft a few my main question would be one tied to successes; Why does it feel like much larger than a 2% failure rate, even when fully trained/geared/buffed to craft? Is there plans to change this, or let us see more accurate information in our crafting details?

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It doesn't appear that the quality of the ambrosia is taken into consideration when determining the quality of the vessel. Is that an accurate statement? I know that at some point the crafting UI will be updated, but I would like to suggest that anything like this, where the quality of a subcomponent doesn't affect the quality of the item, be indicated in some way in the UI.

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Posted (edited)

I hate to be the guy that's complained about the same thing for 3 months but...

In terms of balance passes on all the the class vessels, what are we waiting for? Frostweaver? Making attribute choices matter  like @VaMei mentioned is definitely a step in the right direction, but there are so many sub-types of classes out there that are just not viable for a whole list of reasons easily searched on the forums. New ones pop up week by week saying the same old things.  

i get that a game is being built from the ground up here, I appreciate that fact, and I know you guys don't want to double your workload and then have to turn around and rework it when adding new systems... But you're going to need a pretty engaging core to this game to keep player retention up, a core that is composed of varied/impactful class and combat choices. On the surface it looks great but after wading around the pool and discarding a few uselessly maxed vessels, you can see why the "meta" (if it can even be called that right now) is the way it is.

Blair keeps stating that balance is an "on-going process throughout the life of a game". I can agree with this, when do we get to consider Crowfall alive enough to be worthy of this privelege? 

EDIT: and before anyone jumps me, I'm not looking for MOBA-like rock-paper-scissors balance, I'm just entreating that we actually have meaningful vessel options. The groundwork is already laid out but we still have the same broken mechanics/skills/dynamics and it will remain that way until an actual first look is taken. 

Edited by Samulus
more rambling

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5 hours ago, Pann said:

@vkromas will be focusing on vessels during a live stream next Thursday (May 16) from 11 am - 12 pm CDT. Please let her know in this thread what you'd like to hear more about during the stream. 

what a crappy time frame, 10AM on the east coast and 1PM on the west. Sad Panda. I would have loved to be there for that topic.

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1 hour ago, Tinnis said:

whats the status of 'advantage / disadvantage' system for vessels?

I think you should forget about that. I believe they replaced it with the leveling system (attributes + talents) for character customization.

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33 minutes ago, Extintor said:

I think you should forget about that. I believe they replaced it with the leveling system (attributes + talents) for character customization.

Last we asked on dev partner it’s still on the table.  This was a few months ago. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, Extintor said:

I think you should forget about that. I believe they replaced it with the leveling system (attributes + talents) for character customization.

<shrug>

Edited by Tinnis

caldera_forum_banner_wings.png

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12 minutes ago, mandalore said:

Last we asked on dev partner it’s still on the table.  This was a few months ago. 

That's inside information that I don't have access to.  ;)

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There are two issues I see with vessel system which need attention.

First, you will upgrade your vessel as game progresses and when you upgrade vessel, you lose all your skills, talents, attributes and health bonuses, because you create new character. You have to go out and level it to 25th level at least , before you are competitive again. Imagine Dirge, wearing plate armor, upgrading his vessel from white to green. He won't be able to wear his plate until 25th level. Healers won't be able to heal until 17th level, because they lack talent for Support Power. Yes, we want to go out and find fights while we are harvesting/ganking/farming/killing bosses/capturing objectives, but we absolutely don't want to be facerolled by leveled character, because our 5th level vessel can't do anything than PvE.
So here is suggesion: introduce upgrade vessel mechanic, so instead of creating new character, you just upgrade vessel on existing character, you keep all your talents and skills, but your level, attributes and health bonuses are reset, so you need to level it, but you are somewhat competitive. New vessel could be automatically leveled by XP of previous vessel, e.g upgrading from white vessel would add 15k XP to new vessel immediately. 

Second, when people play game for a few years, grave diggers and necromancers will be at the top performance to craft legendary vessels. Once player got and leveled his legendary vessel, he won't need necromancer services anymore. It would be great if vessel becomes disposable as any other "gear". Its durability could decrease in combat and after death and once it reaches 0, your character gets some kind of "death debuff", which reduces all stats to 0 or something. Then it should to be replaced or repaired with help of necromancer. 

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17 hours ago, Samulus said:

I hate to be the guy that's complained about the same thing for 3 months but...

In terms of balance passes on all the the class vessels, what are we waiting for? Frostweaver? Making attribute choices matter  like @VaMei mentioned is definitely a step in the right direction, but there are so many sub-types of classes out there that are just not viable for a whole list of reasons easily searched on the forums. New ones pop up week by week saying the same old things.  

i get that a game is being built from the ground up here, I appreciate that fact, and I know you guys don't want to double your workload and then have to turn around and rework it when adding new systems... But you're going to need a pretty engaging core to this game to keep player retention up, a core that is composed of varied/impactful class and combat choices. On the surface it looks great but after wading around the pool and discarding a few uselessly maxed vessels, you can see why the "meta" (if it can even be called that right now) is the way it is.

Blair keeps stating that balance is an "on-going process throughout the life of a game". I can agree with this, when do we get to consider Crowfall alive enough to be worthy of this privelege? 

EDIT: and before anyone jumps me, I'm not looking for MOBA-like rock-paper-scissors balance, I'm just entreating that we actually have meaningful vessel options. The groundwork is already laid out but we still have the same broken mechanics/skills/dynamics and it will remain that way until an actual first look is taken. 

You’re asking about class balance.  Blair said polish and massive class balance is coming later (said in the last stream).  This stream is Vkromas answering vessel related questions.  So necromancy, harvesting, the vessels themselves and maybe some odds and ends. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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33 minutes ago, Extintor said:

That's inside information that I don't have access to.  ;)

It was covered in a stream a few months ago too. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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19 minutes ago, mandalore said:

You’re asking about class balance.  Blair said polish and massive class balance is coming later (said in the last stream).  This stream is Vkromas answering vessel related questions.  So necromancy, harvesting, the vessels themselves and maybe some odds and ends. 

I knew me applying this complaint to this thread was a stretch (I tacked on "vessel" to class multiple times in an attempt to link the relation lol). Alas, I have to complain somewhere.

I'll go back to grumbling to myself in the corner. In the immortal words of Eric Idle in the Flying Circus sketch, "if you're going to split hairs then I'm going to piss off" lol. 

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When crows and vessels were first announced, there were two idea that were talked about, but never went anywhere:

  • Will there be an 'in-place' upgrade path for vessels, instead of having to replace them?  I believe it was JTodd who proposed it as an alternative for people who didn't care for the idea of changing bodies in the first place.
  • Will vessels always be locked to the initial class it's chosen for?  The idea back then was for an existing vessel to swap or re-roll to a different class as long as it was allowed for that race.

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45 minutes ago, ComradeAma said:

There are two issues I see with vessel system which need attention.

First, you will upgrade your vessel as game progresses and when you upgrade vessel, you lose all your skills, talents, attributes and health bonuses, because you create new character. You have to go out and level it to 25th level at least , before you are competitive again. Imagine Dirge, wearing plate armor, upgrading his vessel from white to green. He won't be able to wear his plate until 25th level. Healers won't be able to heal until 17th level, because they lack talent for Support Power. Yes, we want to go out and find fights while we are harvesting/ganking/farming/killing bosses/capturing objectives, but we absolutely don't want to be facerolled by leveled character, because our 5th level vessel can't do anything than PvE.
So here is suggesion: introduce upgrade vessel mechanic, so instead of creating new character, you just upgrade vessel on existing character, you keep all your talents and skills, but your level, attributes and health bonuses are reset, so you need to level it, but you are somewhat competitive. New vessel could be automatically leveled by XP of previous vessel, e.g upgrading from white vessel would add 15k XP to new vessel immediately. 

Second, when people play game for a few years, grave diggers and necromancers will be at the top performance to craft legendary vessels. Once player got and leveled his legendary vessel, he won't need necromancer services anymore. It would be great if vessel becomes disposable as any other "gear". Its durability could decrease in combat and after death and once it reaches 0, your character gets some kind of "death debuff", which reduces all stats to 0 or something. Then it should to be replaced or repaired with help of necromancer. 

Just because you are leveling a new vessel doesn't mean you have to throw away your old one, unless you are out of character slots, in which case you can just fight on one of your other characters and level your new vessel on the side. Leveling a new vessel presents no more risk than leveling your original vessel. In either case, group up and you'll be more protected and level faster.

Players will never stop needing new vessels. Even if you have a legendary vessel, you can still get a better legendary vessel, or one that has a different mix of stats to better fit changes in your build. Even if you just want to use a different set of major disciplines, you'll need a new vessel. And you'll want a legendary vessel for every character that you play, possibly across multiple accounts. And there will be turnover in the game. Old players will leave and new players will join who will need lots of vessels.

As long as this game maintains a sustainable population, necromancers will have work.

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5 hours ago, ComradeAma said:


So here is suggesion: introduce upgrade vessel mechanic, so instead of creating new character, you just upgrade vessel on existing character, you keep all your talents and skills, but your level, attributes and health bonuses are reset, so you need to level it, but you are somewhat competitive. New vessel could be automatically leveled by XP of previous vessel, e.g upgrading from white vessel would add 15k XP to new vessel immediately. 

 

I think this sounds like a great idea!!

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Oh wow, y'all have been busy! I'm just now starting to dive into this thread and read it, but I also wanted to poke and prod a bit more to get some feedback on a few things. 

1 - Let's talk about vessel leveling. I'm going to be spending some time this weekend playing and getting some basic numbers (rate it takes to level from 1-30 on a common vessel vs. a legendary, things like that); are there any specific aspects of our leveling system you do like? What about things you think we could improve upon?

2 - How do you feel about the way necromancy crafting is as a whole? Do you feel like this aspect of crafting is pretty well fleshed out, or is there something lacking? Granted, I know we just put the goggles out there for everyone on test but they aren't available on live yet so current perception might be skewed. Necromancy is such a unique aspect to our game that I personally think it's pretty good as it is, but I'm always open to feedback.

3 - Tell me, do you find yourself interested in making a vessel for the higher quality aspects, or do you prefer purchasing vessels from more advanced crafters? 

4 - We only have a few minutes to touch on these things in the live stream; what are the key items you hope to hear about during this stream? 

Thanks everyone!

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3 minutes ago, vkromas said:

Oh wow, y'all have been busy! I'm just now starting to dive into this thread and read it, but I also wanted to poke and prod a bit more to get some feedback on a few things. 

1 - Let's talk about vessel leveling. I'm going to be spending some time this weekend playing and getting some basic numbers (rate it takes to level from 1-30 on a common vessel vs. a legendary, things like that); are there any specific aspects of our leveling system you do like? What about things you think we could improve upon?

2 - How do you feel about the way necromancy crafting is as a whole? Do you feel like this aspect of crafting is pretty well fleshed out, or is there something lacking? Granted, I know we just put the goggles out there for everyone on test but they aren't available on live yet so current perception might be skewed. Necromancy is such a unique aspect to our game that I personally think it's pretty good as it is, but I'm always open to feedback.

3 - Tell me, do you find yourself interested in making a vessel for the higher quality aspects, or do you prefer purchasing vessels from more advanced crafters? 

4 - We only have a few minutes to touch on these things in the live stream; what are the key items you hope to hear about during this stream? 

Thanks everyone!

1 - Leveling outside of a group can be painful, especially for a class that doesn't have self healing. Bandages don't really help much. Not getting XP from lower rank mobs when leveling a custom vessel makes it tough too. I think the extra XP requirements are enough without forcing us to fight higher rank mobs as well.

When gold was more plentiful and gave 1 xp per coin, it seemed like the sacrifice system would be a gold sink and that vet players would be able to use their gold to quickly level up new vessels. With the changes to gold, we are left with killing mobs and it has become too much of a grind. Sacrifice shards give too little XP. The lore drops from spiders are gone and the ones that drop from the war tribes are too hard to collect for the XP they give. Adjusting these things, and giving us alternate methods to gain XP (harvesting, crafting), should help.

One thing I would suggest is to add a sacrifice currency. You already have the sacrifice dust on TEST. Something like that, but where we can sacrifice items and turn them into the currency. That way, we can store it and trade it more easily, instead of storing a bunch of nearly broken gear so we can sacrifice them when we actually need them. 

2 - I think necromancy is in a pretty good place. Other than now requiring the goggles, it hasn't fundamentally changed in a while, so we've been able to test it a lot. If anything, it might be necessary to look at the gap between a common, default vessel and a green vessel. Maybe the default vessel needs to be a little better. 

3 - I prefer to make it myself if possible, because then I can be sure that it is tailor made to fit my needs, but that's probably true with anything. 

4 - The biggest thing I guess is whether or not the Advantages and Disadvantages are still planned and when we might see them.

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