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Vessels live stream May 16 - Official discussion thread

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Posted (edited)

oh ho ho,  @vkromas you're going to get some responses to the first question!

  1. There's not many things I do like about the leveling. Here is my grievance and some suggestions to address it
    • leveling is boring and there are a limited amount of ways to level
      • Suggestions:
        • Experience for all the things (<- in the works)
        • Higher rank and more dangerous mobs/nodes should give more experience. Have a diminishing return if you must, but I dislike that a R1 Spider, an R8 Urgu Elite, and a R10 Ancient Hellcat all give 50 exp.
        • Get rid of the diminishing return on mobs for higher quality vessels. A level 1 Legendary vessel is just as helpless as a level 1 Common vessel. Please let them get experience from lower rank mobs too! The increased experience need is enough of a "penalty" (couldn't think of the right word here)
        • Overfilling the experience bar carries over to the next level. it's a QoL thing, but it would make leveling that much easier as we could dump a lot of trash items and runebinds and not have to worry about wasting experience
        • Remove diminishing returns on sacrifice items. The whole point of these items is to sac them, but the higher level and higher quality your vessel is, the more worthless they become.
        • Up sacrifice values on sacrifice shards. Dunno if it was changed for 5.90, but in 5.8.6 they aren't worth sacrificing. All quality levels of sacrifice shards are 5 exp per shard
        • Give us basic, weaker, and dumped down versions of our powers at the beginning, and have the talent tree "upgrade them". Example: Upgrade Knight Pursuit to charge 20m instead of 10m, or Upgrade Templar's Judgement to branch into Execute, or Upgrade Druid's Gaea's Wail to bounce between targets, etc.
  2. I would say it's fairly fleshed out, granted I'm not a Necromancer nor a Gravedigger so my opinion might not hold as much weight as others. One thing I do find odd is that there are a lot of ways to increase the caps on stats that don't have a lot of means to reach the cap on, like crushing damage cap, and the like.
  3. I don't make them, primarily because I haven't specced into either gravedigging nor Necormancy, so I ask a guildie to make one for me.
  4. Ways the team wants to make leveling less grindy and tedious. I know the design team probably doesn't have the tech to implement many of my ideas, and that they want the leveling process to get new players acclimated to their class, but it's grindy as all hell for experienced players. Also, what's up with Advantages and Disadvantages? Are they still planned, or are they going to be a post-launch feature?
Edited by coolster50
Also curious about Advantages and Disadvantages

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Posted (edited)
54 minutes ago, vkromas said:

Oh wow, y'all have been busy! I'm just now starting to dive into this thread and read it, but I also wanted to poke and prod a bit more to get some feedback on a few things. 

1 - Let's talk about vessel leveling. I'm going to be spending some time this weekend playing and getting some basic numbers (rate it takes to level from 1-30 on a common vessel vs. a legendary, things like that); are there any specific aspects of our leveling system you do like? What about things you think we could improve upon?

2 - How do you feel about the way necromancy crafting is as a whole? Do you feel like this aspect of crafting is pretty well fleshed out, or is there something lacking? Granted, I know we just put the goggles out there for everyone on test but they aren't available on live yet so current perception might be skewed. Necromancy is such a unique aspect to our game that I personally think it's pretty good as it is, but I'm always open to feedback.

3 - Tell me, do you find yourself interested in making a vessel for the higher quality aspects, or do you prefer purchasing vessels from more advanced crafters? 

4 - We only have a few minutes to touch on these things in the live stream; what are the key items you hope to hear about during this stream? 

Thanks everyone!

1 - With the scaling xp requirement of leveling higher tier vessels, I don't see any point in also constraining sacrifice rarity. A white sacrifice item is already worth comparatively WAY less to a purple vessel than a white one. Telling the purple they can't eve use items that grant terrible xp seems unnecessary. Also lol you think you're going to level both a white and a legendary in a weekend,

 

2 - Optional parts are currently straight upgrades. I feel they should be sidegrades with down sides. Across the game "optional" parts are generally straight upgrades, which means they're... not optional.

 

3 - I make vessels (and do the associated alchemy and gravedigging) for my entire guild. Nobody in my guild buys vessels. If they did I would have them dragged out in to the street and shot for trying to weasel out of being a part of my zombie army.

 

4 - Why do you only have a few minutes to touch on these things in the livestream if the focus of the livestream is about vessels? The key items I hope to hear about are:

  • What's being done to remedy the sporadic availability of racial graveyards? Currently only gravdigging doesn't have at least token access to high tier mats for all of its harvesting types.
  • What is the team doing to make me want to do something other than maxing out two DPS related lines or two healing related lines for people's vessels? its pretty boring.
  • Why did you guys nerf CON philosopher's stones? They were only worth building at double stats because CON sucks. Actually why does CON still suck?
  • Why do you  require cinnabar and halite for ambrosia even though their source motherlodes aren't remarkably more avaliable, and why aren't you concerned that it constrains our ability to make certain vessel stats?

 

Edited by PopeUrban

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1. a legendary vessel and white vessel should get the same exp for each item, just require more from a Legendary( like you already do). Stats matter later in game not early leveling, so just make us kill more r1 ones than a white vessel to level. So we can move to harder zones with abilities.

2. another guildmate does the necro stuff.

3. I feel once your an experienced player, you never want to start a common vessel, because you know the greens, blue etc... are so much better. Only after a wipe is a white fun to play for a few days.

4. off topic, but timed forts is a bad idea.  You just eliminated any spontaneous PVP. Basically you gave the zerg a schedule. Everything drops chaos embers, but animals, isn't the chaos of hunger in them as well? I don't need a plethora of meat.

Positive: thanks for making Archer range better.

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@vkromas questions for the stream.  

1.  Why are core abilities gated behind leveling vessels.  Try leveling a Earthwarden Druid or a Crusader cleric and tell me if that’s an enjoyable experience.  

2.  Why cant vessels be sacrificed?  It sucks leveling a new vessel and losing those abilities every time you level up.  PvP viability is gated hard behind being far enough into your leveling to unlock your promotion path; PvP before that (as a healer) is a steep up hill battle against both the player your fighting and the leveling system. 

3.  Will we be getting PvP xp for leveling alternatives? 

 

 

 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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Wow, I asked and y'all are definitely delivering! These are seriously some great talking points and I will try my best to touch upon most of what's been brought up, either during the stream or after in this thread. 

As a game designer, we carry a heavy burden not many other disciplines in game development carry; toeing the line between fun, challenging, rewarding, and engaging. One of the ongoing issues we have as designers is seeing our work from an objective perspective, or with "fresh eyes", and this is why I look to all of you to help us legit find the fun for our game. It's a luxury not many studios have, and having the ability to iterate and re-evaluate how we've implemented something after seeing how the end user actually takes to it is one of the most important aspects of my job. Sometimes we're constrained by tech and time limitations, but I personally want to work with all of you to build a game we can all be proud of and enjoy playing. To that end, it's also important to note that we're still putting this puzzle together; we've come a long way since the HungerDome days but we've still got some work to do, and I really appreciate that everyone understands that. 

Anyway, keep those questions and feedback comin'! I love what you have all brought up so far and I really do thank you for keeping it objective and honest.

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5 hours ago, vkromas said:

are there any specific aspects of our leveling system you do like?

The leveling system doesn't feel bad for a new player in a common vessel learning how to play the game, especially now that there's a shallow end of the pool. Beyond the new textures, the new temple grounds are a giant leap forward.

It doesn't feel bad for an experienced player dabbling in a new class with a common vessel. He knows how to gain XP fast, and has friends to help make it go faster.

For an experienced player grinding an upgrade to a vessel they already have and know, it's a grind for the sake of grinding. Blue isn't terrible; surplus books from wartribes have a good sacrifice value and are not hard to get if you have someone to carry you. Hearing that someone has an epic vessel to grind out is cause to pray for wife agro. I don't even want to think about a legendary.

In my experience, games that call the leveling experience game content are usually either theme parks where storyline questing is the game, or PvP games where you get a complete combat viable character out of the box and add flavor. CF is currently neither of these.

As for crafting vessels, I'm not skilled in either grave-digging or necromancy. I leave that to others in the guild who are both skilled and geared, freeing me to do my job for the guild. When I was an indy, I bought my vessels.

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My Main question is will there be another pass on Class/Talents, sometime after frostweaver is out, that would make it so classes started with their base kit (Similar to 5.7 and before) with the talent system itself being more of a way to pick and choose new skills+stats for each class on the way to each classes promotion.

Locking core class features behind a 15 level, level gate is kinda bland and i see no real reason for it. Why does a druid (supposedly) have to wait to level 15 to heal? why does an assassin have to wait till level 15 to stealth?

Why do the talent trees force players to take certain things to get through them? What if i dont ever plan on touching a resource node, why are 2 of my Talent points gotta be wasted on exploration disciplines (although with the scout/thief disciplines that showed up briefly in test, that might sway my opinion in having exploration discs depending on how they function)? What if i dont want a specific skill and that skill is the one you put right at the starting point of a section where it starts branching off? Now i gotta sit there and take a skill i probably wont even slot just because of the way the devs decided they wanted to set up the skill list which is another completely wasted skill point.

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Posted (edited)

@vkromas which version will we invest x4 talent points per major discipline to unlock their powers?

Will it be free pick or a predetermined 1,2,3,4 order as listed on the stone?

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Edited by Tinnis

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, ShadowwBoi13 said:

 

Why do the talent trees force players to take certain things to get through them? What if i dont ever plan on touching a resource node, why are 2 of my Talent points gotta be wasted on exploration disciplines (although with the scout/thief disciplines that showed up briefly in test, that might sway my opinion in having exploration discs depending on how they function)? What if i dont want a specific skill and that skill is the one you put right at the starting point of a section where it starts branching off? Now i gotta sit there and take a skill i probably wont even slot just because of the way the devs decided they wanted to set up the skill list which is another completely wasted skill point.

Every account can be 2/3 (harvester, crafter, combat) now.  This is good.  It used to be that a harvester couldn’t be equal to a combat char (now they are both) so it was nearly impossible to survive a gank simply because you couldn’t fight.  VIP allows training in 2/3 roles and now we can take majors for 2/3 roles.  

Edited by mandalore

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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17 hours ago, vkromas said:

1 - Let's talk about vessel leveling. I'm going to be spending some time this weekend playing and getting some basic numbers (rate it takes to level from 1-30 on a common vessel vs. a legendary, things like that); are there any specific aspects of our leveling system you do like? What about things you think we could improve upon?

I backed Crowfall and ACE because it was presented differently. FAQ still says "Since the game does NOT use a standard advancement mechanic (kill monsters = gain experience = level-up) and instead uses passive training (skills increase over time) it poses the question, “Why fight monsters at all?”

If I wanted to PVE grind, there are tons of other games that do it much better (no offense to those working hard on these systems).

As is, leveling vessels seems like a time sink for the sake of time sinks. While I'm sure new players can actually learn from it, I don't see a need to re-level multiple times even with different classes once people understand the basics.

Also seems like it is a way to encourage PVP but this typically turns into ganking. Attacking when one side is engaged with mobs, low health, likely not prepared to PVP (lacking gear, lvls, disciplines, etc), and overall at a greater disadvantage. Isn't the point of leveling and doing PVE to get to a point where we can PVP competitively? Due to class/talent design, some are simply not as ready to PVP at least not well or not how they want.

The side with more players, better gear, and likely skill will win and result in the other side that was trying to progress being run off. Then we have no PVP and the side that likely needed to PVE to progress, not being able to do so.

Of course if there are campaigns designed to cater to different tiers of players this will be less of an issue (less power gap), but I don't know what is planned.

Even if we could grind away in perfect safety, it still doesn't do anything for me. Grinding AI is grinding AI. Traditional themeparks have dungeons and what not that incorporate more intricate situations where groups need to work together quite a bit which can be fun, but just holding down LMB and facetanking one mob after another isn't thrilling IMO. Not sure I'd like to see PVE be more complex but if we are supposed to be grinding mobs post lvl 30, it might need to be a bit more exciting. Unless it is just an eternal grind system just for the sake of it.

Beyond actually leveling, sacrifice should be a viable option where EVERYTHING can be scarified for what it is worth. I don't like diminishing or zero returns in this area. If I'm essentially trashing something that cost me time/effort/resources to obtain, it should give me something back. Since this is not a full loot game, we don't have high end items falling from the sky to sacrifice. Maybe have have player heads worth a percent of their total character value (gear/vessels/disciplines)? Which could be another form of currency.

There should be some carry over from Vessel to Vessel. As others have suggested, some sort of upgrade or transfer process.

If I only want to play XYZ forever, I shouldn't need to "re-learn" all the same talents over and over. Nor end up deleting my previous character/vessel with no virtual value taken from it beyond the goods times I had.

When we can obtain basically all options in the talent trees, it removes choice and specialization which at one point seemed to be a big deal to ACE. We should have quite a bit more to choose from as there are lots of stats/attributes floating around, but we should have less points to spend then options to require choice. Allow greater point investment into each node with diminishing returns after a soft cap.

Also mentioned before, give us more choice in talent selection. Why do we have to take X to get Y if we have no use for X? Seems like some classes have 5+ nodes dedicated to Crit chance/dmg. I'd rather have quality over quantity, condense those to 1-2 nodes and add in things like run speed, mount speed, far sight, chance to proc anything, etc.

Overall I like the basic foundation of these systems but they need more to them, most of which already exists and needs to be added together.

 

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6 hours ago, mandalore said:

Every account can be 2/3 (harvester, crafter, combat) now.  This is good.  It used to be that a harvester couldn’t be equal to a combat char (now they are both) so it was nearly impossible to survive a gank simply because you couldn’t fight.  VIP allows training in 2/3 roles and now we can take majors for 2/3 roles.  

I wasnt asking about the skill trees (Passive Training) i was asking about Talent Trees (Active Progression) Because i really hate that i have to waste points on certain things just to progress through the tree itself.

Example, why is Go For Broke the first branching skill for duelist? I Dont like go for broke and ill never use it or even slot it on my character, Snipe and Ambush are way better skills in my opinion especially since i play dirge and stealth for me is more about a quick initiation before i go into brawl mode. Thats 1 Whole wasted Talent point, then if i dont plan on doing any exploration stuff im forced to take both exploration discs because they are located on the default line of progression (most of my characters dont even slot exploration disc, only my harvester which i havent actually made since the last wipe). Thats 2 More wasted talent points. Thats a Total of 3 wasted skill points i could have put somewhere else.

And Tinnis asked an interesting question about what will happen when disciplines require Talent points to gain abilities. If they force you to go in a certain Order or Tree style approach, Thats even more wasted points if i only wanted 2 of the abilities from a major but they locked it behind the 2 abilities i didnt want. Thats another 2 talent points PER Major that are wasted also. For a whooping total of 7 Skill points wasted in crap im never gonna use.

The game is supposed to be about choices. if i CHOOSE to not wanna have any bonuses to harvesting at all and dont wanna slot disciplines. Thats for me to decide, it shouldnt be forced on me to at least attempt to take 2 exploration disciplines if i dont want to. Therefor i should be able to CHOOSE to not take 2 exploration discs in the talent tree if i dont want to. I should also be able to CHOOSE not to take Go For Broke if it doesnt fit my playstyle and i wont slot it. I dont care if Go for Broke actually happens to be a good skill and that other can use it really well, Its my opinion that the skill is shyt and it my CHOICE to not take it. I shouldnt be forced to take it just because the devs said "welp lets put that skill here in the tralent tree cause clearly everyone would wanna use this skill".

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Posted (edited)
On 5/10/2019 at 7:41 PM, vkromas said:

1 - Let's talk about vessel leveling. I'm going to be spending some time this weekend playing and getting some basic numbers (rate it takes to level from 1-30 on a common vessel vs. a legendary, things like that); are there any specific aspects of our leveling system you do like? What about things you think we could improve upon?

For me, this should be the greatest focus when it comes to vessels is improving the leveling process. Overall, leveling needs to happen more organically while playing the game instead of just another grind to do before you can really play the game. Right now most people grind R10 Zombies to get levels. We can't even reach max level, even on a white vessel, in God's Reach without sacrificing gold. Vessels are not combat viable until level 25 when they can get the capstone talent. These are all issues that need to be addressed IMO. 

  1. Sacrifice is the most glaring issue currently. 
    1. White sacrifice items should give XP all the way to level 30 for a white vessel. Green should go all the way to 30 for a green vessel. Etc. 
    2. The war tribe combine 10 into a sacrifice item thing needs to be revamped. Unless you have crafting skill, which many do not, the item goes flawed often. Just drop items that get sacrificed directly IMO. 
    3. When sacrificing items we need the XP to carry over to the next level. Having to sacrifice the exact amount of stuff to complete a level otherwise you lose out on XP is not good. 
  2. We need the "XP for all the things" patch where we will get XP for harvesting nodes, crafting items, capturing objectives, etc. This will help a lot with leveling feeling a lot more organic while playing the game instead of a grind that must be done before you can play.   
  3. Not sure how to fix this one without a major overhaul but if you expect us to PVP before level 25 then we really need our characters to be combat viable at a lower level. This means granting abilities and such at lower levels or at the start. I've always thought the talent system should be about MODIFYING existing abilities instead of GRANTING them. Take a look at how Elder Scrolls Online offers different "morphs" of abilities. For example, instead of a talent granting Knight's Chain Pull you offer morphs that modify the distance, damage or cooldown time and you have to make a choice of which morph you want. 
  4. The XP leveling curve needs to be looked at as far as vessel quality vs. campaign type/rank of monsters available as more campaign types come online. You have to go to higher risk campaigns to get higher quality resources. You should have to go to riskier campaigns to level higher quality vessels. 
    1. You should be able to get a white vessel to level 30 in God's Reach easy but a green should be slow/difficult.
    2. You should be able to get a green vessel to 30 in 3 Faction Campaign easy but a blue should be slow/difficult.
    3. You should be able to get a blue vessel to 30 in 12 Faction Campaign easy but a purple should be slow/difficult.
    4. You should be able to get a purple vessel to 30 in Dregs Campaign easy but a orange should be slow/difficult. 
Edited by blazzen

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On 5/10/2019 at 7:41 PM, vkromas said:

1 - Let's talk about vessel leveling. I'm going to be spending some time this weekend playing and getting some basic numbers (rate it takes to level from 1-30 on a common vessel vs. a legendary, things like that); are there any specific aspects of our leveling system you do like? What about things you think we could improve upon?

@vkromas Try leveling a druid of any quality, any promotion, from 1 to 30 without someone feeding you sac items or killing mobs for you. If you make it maybe you can explain why this class in particular (cleric to a lesser degree) is supposed to have massive amounts of downtime waiting for resources to regen while other classes can pull group after group of enemies and level without ever stopping unless their health gets low.

I keep seeing people say "oh, now is not the time for class balance... that comes later" but someone at ACE put the time in to make druids even less effective at anything outside of blight bombing in the latest 5.90 build. INCLUDING LEVELING. Is the plan to just make the class so miserable to play that no one will miss it when it gets removed? I'm honestly at a loss for what the possible reasoning could be slapping more limitations on top of the problems that pre-exist with this class.

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2 hours ago, blazzen said:

For me, this should be the greatest focus when it comes to vessels is improving the leveling process. Overall, leveling needs to happen more organically while playing the game instead of just another grind to do before you can really play the game. Right now most people grind R10 Zombies to get levels. We can't even reach max level, even on a white vessel, in God's Reach without sacrificing gold. Vessels are not combat viable until level 25 when they can get the capstone talent. 

  1. Sacrifice is the most glaring issue currently. 
    1. White sacrifice items should give XP all the way to level 30 for a white vessel. Green should go all the way to 30 for a green vessel. Etc. 
    2. The war tribe combine 10 into a sacrifice item thing needs to be revamped. Unless you have crafting skill, which many do not, the item goes flawed often. Just drop items that get sacrificed directly IMO. 
    3. When sacrificing items we need the XP to carry over to the next level. Having to sacrifice the exact amount of stuff to complete a level otherwise you lose out on XP is not good. 
  2. We need the "XP for all the things" patch where we will get XP for harvesting nodes, crafting items, capturing objectives, etc. This will help a lot with leveling feeling a lot more organic while playing the game instead of a grind that must be done before you can play.   
  3. The XP leveling curve needs to be looked at as far as vessel quality vs. campaign type/rank of monsters available as more campaign types come online. You have to go to higher risk campaigns to get higher quality resources. You should have to go to riskier campaigns to level higher quality vessels. 
    1. You should be able to get a white vessel to level 30 in God's Reach easy but a green should be slow/difficult.
    2. You should be able to get a green vessel to 30 in 3 Faction Campaign easy but a blue should be slow/difficult.
    3. You should be able to get a blue vessel to 30 in 12 Faction Campaign easy but a purple should be slow/difficult.
    4. You should be able to get a purple vessel to 30 in Dregs Campaign easy but a orange should be slow/difficult. 

12 faction? Is that even on the table anymore?


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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22 minutes ago, mandalore said:

12 faction? Is that even on the table anymore?

It shouldn't be hard to do. It's just 12 factions instead of the current 3. No major mechanical changes needed other than maybe some new faction banners and such. The issue right now is the population wouldn't support it nor does the overall campaign cluster size (number of zones per campaign).  

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1 hour ago, blazzen said:

It shouldn't be hard to do. It's just 12 factions instead of the current 3. No major mechanical changes needed other than maybe some new faction banners and such. The issue right now is the population wouldn't support it nor does the overall campaign cluster size (number of zones per campaign).  

It seems like a lot could go wrong with that.  That’s a lot of players agreeing to not stack sides and play fair.  How would you even balance that?   


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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17 minutes ago, mandalore said:

It seems like a lot could go wrong with that.  That’s a lot of players agreeing to not stack sides and play fair.  How would you even balance that?   

It’d be like a minor league dregs campaign, I imagine.


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25 minutes ago, mandalore said:

It seems like a lot could go wrong with that.  That’s a lot of players agreeing to not stack sides and play fair.  How would you even balance that?   

Considering Fantasy Earth Zero had 6 factions, I expect it would work out similar.

Which, is actually what ruined the game for most people, btw.  The game quickly stopped being a 6 faction free for all, and quickly was a 2 faction competition with 4 mercenary factions that were way smaller and generally hated both.

Considering the last campaign in the end was sorta excluding Chaos in the US server, they played the roll of the underdog in the end, it's been rough having even 3 factions working right.  So... yeah, more factions won't actually work better.

I honestly don't expect Dregs to be much more than a couple of alliances with an infinite sprawl of mercenaries too, for this same reason.  That's usually how it goes.


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