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Vessels live stream May 16 - Official discussion thread

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If all we get is God's Reach, 3 Faction and Dregs then....

God's Reach = White

3 Faction = Green/Blue

Dregs = Purple/Orange

Point being, just as resources are gated by campaign band, I think leveling should be also. It's that way somewhat right now but I think the overall leveling curve needs to be modified. 

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16 minutes ago, blazzen said:

If all we get is God's Reach, 3 Faction and Dregs then....

God's Reach = White

3 Faction = Green/Blue

Dregs = Purple/Orange

Point being, just as resources are gated by campaign band, I think leveling should be also. It's that way somewhat right now but I think the overall leveling curve needs to be modified. 

22 minutes ago, Lanie said:

I honestly don't expect Dregs to be much more than a couple of alliances with an infinite sprawl of mercenaries too, for this same reason.  That's usually how it goes.

Somehow, I get the impression that gating the faction sieges so that only the powerful guild alliances in Dregs has any chance of making a meaningful impact... will not go well for faction sieges.  At that point, faction sieges will just be another place alliances fight.

Killing features probably isn't a smart idea.


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On ‎5‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 4:41 PM, vkromas said:

Oh wow, y'all have been busy! I'm just now starting to dive into this thread and read it, but I also wanted to poke and prod a bit more to get some feedback on a few things. 

1 - Let's talk about vessel leveling. I'm going to be spending some time this weekend playing and getting some basic numbers (rate it takes to level from 1-30 on a common vessel vs. a legendary, things like that); are there any specific aspects of our leveling system you do like? What about things you think we could improve upon?

2 - How do you feel about the way necromancy crafting is as a whole? Do you feel like this aspect of crafting is pretty well fleshed out, or is there something lacking? Granted, I know we just put the goggles out there for everyone on test but they aren't available on live yet so current perception might be skewed. Necromancy is such a unique aspect to our game that I personally think it's pretty good as it is, but I'm always open to feedback.

3 - Tell me, do you find yourself interested in making a vessel for the higher quality aspects, or do you prefer purchasing vessels from more advanced crafters? 

4 - We only have a few minutes to touch on these things in the live stream; what are the key items you hope to hear about during this stream? 

Thanks everyone!

1. I like to have choice on where and what I farm for leveling it makes it more fun for me. For example right now really the only thing we have to farm for leveling (that is if you want to be efficient are zombies. Before the gold nerf even if the mob didn't give experience I still got some reward toward leveling with gold.  I feel like my choice was marginalized with the gold nerf. maybe all mobs can drop some kind of trash that can be sacrificed for some XP gain.

3. I would rather kill for my wealth and then buy my vessels but people are not selling goods. maybe if EK's were easier to access this would help.

4. I would love to hear how leveling with be made more enjoyable. I would like to have more options on how I level. Maybe its by throwing gold into the sacrifice, maybe its by crafting. maybe its from getting experience from harvesting. and at least allow us to get experience from different types of mobs. Weather its from killing or by sacrificing trash. 

Side note, why do we not have trash vendors?

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I don't want characters to be useless. Right now, on a new Purple or higher vessel, it feels really bad and extremely limited in the ability to gain XP until 15 or so, dependent on the class of course. For some you have to get going as a group during this time until you get the skills you need to be minimally viable especially when you are forced to face the higher mobs for XP. Yeah, this might not be a long-term issue but it is an aspect of the game that needs some thought. 

 

Vessel Questions

  • Do you see any additional types of attributes that can be added to vessels coming?
  • Will the vessel crafting system also be used to modify mount attributes or will it use something similar?
  • How does the procedural map creation system take into account the diversity of levels and types of graves on a map? Are there knobs you adjust to create scarcity or absence of certain options for necromancy in a campaign?

 

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Regarding leveling with Epic and Legendary vessels, what is the plan to get experience on them?  Currently rank 10 mobs only progress to level 18 - what will be available for people to progress beyond that experience wise?

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13 minutes ago, Namru said:

Regarding leveling with Epic and Legendary vessels, what is the plan to get experience on them?  Currently rank 10 mobs only progress to level 18 - what will be available for people to progress beyond that experience wise?

They have changed the XP curves in 5.9. I would expect that even legendary vessels would get XP at level 29 from rank 10 mobs. We'll see once the campaign comes up, I guess.

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@vkromas

I have been a guild necromancer from the start. And the guild gravedigger and alchemist ... I have done this process as much as anyone- Please read this

In the livestream you had one of the most frustrating thing happen and they didn’t even notice.. this part of the problem- Making vessels as a developer on test is easy— on live it’s WAY TOO MUCH WORK!!

Read on... Please

 

First of all creating a vessel is a big commitment. Leveling Rare or Epic vessels let alone legendary takes a huge amount of time.

We don’t want to do that over and over again.

So you don’t want to continually upgrade and pve forever. We don't want to PVE at all.  We are here to PVP and win the throne war.

So we don’t want to make a vessel, we want to make THE vessel - one and done.

or at least the best vessel we can to be competitive.

So we spend a huge amount of time searching the world for the correct graveyard with the rarity level and race we need.

Then we farm that graveyard until we have several sets of parts to account for flawed assemblies and extra additives.

We farm zombies for hands of the correct rarity.

We get groups together to farm motherlodes for minerals- this requires specific disciplines, specific tools, and potions. Those potions require rare materials ( bone)

Minerals are a rare drop and in order to make ambrosia you need 4 halite of the same rarity and 4 cinnabar of the same rarity.

This isn’t as easy as you think. You could farm motherlodes for 4 hours and get plenty of minerals of various rarities but not enough to make ambrosia

( 3 poor, 3 common,3 uncommon, 3 rare, 3 epic, 3 legendary = no ambrosia)

and to top it off when you do get enough to make a batch it makes 5 ambrosias.

and you need SIX to complete a vessel 

Luckily the rarity of the ambrosia doesn’t affect the rarity of the body part or vessel.

But the rarity of the minerals used to make philosophers solutions/stone does effect the rarity of the vessel.

Which happened in your livestream.

You used Legendary parts and a low level philosophers stone and ended up with a low level vessel —

a huge waste of time.

People don’t even use philosophers stones because it’s near impossible to collect enough minerals of the correct rarity.

and lastly you have now gated all the optional body parts behind acquiring a rare drop from a war tribe — requiring even more hoops and PVE in order to prepare for pvp.

Assemble all those things plus optional food and potions, the right minor disciplines plus all the time waiting for skills to level. You make crating specific jewelry and armor.

You make your first vessel — a necromancer crafting vessel — you can’t even use it to fight because its stats are min maxed for necromancy — in order to get better rolls on your combat vessel...

On Leveling.

Im wondering if any of you knew what us old timers ( the ones who backed this game from the beginning) loved about Shadowbane.

We would be playing Wow if we wanted to pve.

We backed this game because we enjoy player versus player siege style combat.

But you have now made it impossible to avoid PVE if you want to be competitive at PVP


www.lotd.org       pking and siege pvp since 1995

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, PaleOne said:

Im wondering if any of you knew what us old timers ( the ones who backed this game from the beginning) loved about Shadowbane.

We would be playing Wow if we wanted to pve.

We backed this game because we enjoy player versus player siege style combat.

But you have now made it impossible to avoid PVE if you want to be competitive at PVP

It seems a lot of people forget how much PvE was required to level characters, equip them, and build cities in Shadowbane.

The only way you could be competitive in PvP in Shadowbane without doing a bunch of PvE was if other players did the PvE for you. That will work in Crowfall as well.

Edited by Jah

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, PaleOne said:

Im wondering if any of you knew what us old timers ( the ones who backed this game from the beginning) loved about Shadowbane.

We would be playing Wow if we wanted to pve.

We backed this game because we enjoy player versus player siege style combat.

But you have now made it impossible to avoid PVE if you want to be competitive at PVP

One of the major issues I had with Shadowbane is that I could run through the world and it was empty.  Mine Fights, certain rune drops (that are timed) and sieges were all the brought people out. This game needs PvE if it is going to actually stay lively and there is no need to be out in the world if everything is handed easily to you. I want more reasons for people to be out in the world for more small scale fights, not less.

 

As for the rest, I agree with the whole premise of what you are stating. Val's display today showed the root of the issue. She's probably happy with a vessel as an outcome but for us that orange component vessel turned out worse than a green. After farming all those mats and having a difficult time assembling everything in one place (given the bag space etc), the final combine failed. The stats on that end vessel were terrible and not worth the effort. Wasting time in a game is not a good thing and the results of that craft were a waste.

Edited by Spawl

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Posted (edited)
55 minutes ago, PaleOne said:

Im wondering if any of you knew what us old timers ( the ones who backed this game from the beginning) loved about Shadowbane.

We would be playing Wow if we wanted to pve.

We backed this game because we enjoy player versus player siege style combat.

But you have now made it impossible to avoid PVE if you want to be competitive at PVP

The amount of PvE required to do sieges was immense.  Banestones,  War tents, ballistas, bulwarks and all the needed components to perform a siege could cost tens of millions of gold which was weeks of macro farming.  Building up a city could take weeks or months, if a trainer city, to finish.  Running spires could cost you millions of gold if a siege lasted hours.  Gold repairs and water buckets for walls.  All that poorly made socks added up. 

The obsidian needed to roll a full set of gear for one char was an entire days worth of holding the mine, for just one char to get rings, neck and weapons.

PvE was a huge requirement in the logistics of the sieges in SB but after the first year of the game PvE became a joke of stealth looting in the middle of the camp while an afk warlock/druid/sentinal/templar aoe farmed from a macro..  Are you sure we played the same game or did you just come around at the end of SBemu when Fatboy had already flooded the servers with billions of duped gold?  

Edited by mandalore

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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17 minutes ago, mandalore said:

The amount of PvE required to do sieges was immense.  Banestones,  War tents, ballistas, bulwarks and all the needed components to perform a siege could cost tens of millions of gold which was weeks of macro farming.  Building up a city could take weeks or months, if a trainer city, to finish.  Running spires could cost you millions of gold if a siege lasted hours.  Gold repairs and water buckets for walls.  All that poorly made socks added up. 

The obsidian needed to roll a full set of gear for one char was an entire days worth of holding the mine, for just one char to get rings, neck and weapons.

PvE was a huge requirement in the logistics of the sieges in SB but after the first year of the game PvE became a joke of stealth looting in the middle of the camp while an afk warlock/druid/sentinal/templar aoe farmed from a macro..  Are you sure we played the same game or did you just come around at the end of SBemu when Fatboy had already flooded the servers with billions of duped gold?  

I played SB since early Beta. I was an officer in the Burning Legion and Siege Comander for Redemption on Treachery and Morning.

Sure if you wanted to own and maintain a city you needed to pve a lot.

but if you just wanted to be a common foot soldier you could be viable in a few evenings.

That is not the case for Crowfall in its current form.


www.lotd.org       pking and siege pvp since 1995

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1 minute ago, PaleOne said:

I played SB since early Beta. I was an officer in the Burning Legion and Siege Comander for Redemption on Treachery and Morning.

Sure if you wanted to own and maintain a city you needed to pve a lot.

but if you just wanted to be a common foot soldier you could be viable in a few evenings.

That is not the case for Crowfall in its current form.

What prevents a common foot soldier from having everything handed to them and being viable on day one in Crowfall, without doing any PvE at all?


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Whew, ok. Let me reply to this thread again in stages because this is one of those subjects that's probably going to require more than one stream to cover all the things. Talking with our team we initially wanted this stream to be an "intro" course into vessel creation, leveling, and how a new player can get a new vessel. I'm pretty sure we touched on a lot of those entry level points today, but for the current set of players or those who are more hardcore, we didn't really bring anything new or address a lot of your questions. So, with that being said let me touch on a few things we're going to work toward iterating. This is going to be a collaborative experience with all of you!

1. I completely forgot to mention this point, but I'm sure most of you already knew about this. We have a plan to now broaden XP gain into other aspects of game play, such as harvesting, crafting, and taking outposts.

2. We're going to go back and re-examine the amount of XP given on a mob kill. 50XP for a rank 1 and 50XP for an elite mob just doesn't feel right, and we're going to start establishing a better baseline for mob XP. This is one of those "Le duh" game developers, moment but this specific issue fell under our radar and now that I'm aware of it, I want to fix it ASAP.

3. New player experience and God's Reach fine tuning. We're at a point where we have a general idea of how we want this to feel and want to work on iterating on this experience, including XP gain, overall flow, and feel.

4. Sacrifice amounts: This is a big one and this one is probably going to take the most time to adjust and polish, but I agree with you. Some of the values on our loot items are not at the best rate for level gaining. Let's re-evaluate these values!

I have a lot of other ideas and possible solutions, but they all depend on how receptive the powers that be are to those ideas. I won't go into detail on them since it's always a possibility those ideas will get shot down, but I just want you to know that my current intent is to facilitate a solid playable experience. OK, I see some other posts here asking specific questions and I'll do my best to answer those, now! 

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6 minutes ago, vkromas said:

We have a plan to now broaden XP gain into other aspects of game play, such as harvesting, crafting, and taking outposts.

What build planned for those XP additions?


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On 5/13/2019 at 1:01 PM, bignick22000 said:

1. I like to have choice on where and what I farm for leveling it makes it more fun for me. For example right now really the only thing we have to farm for leveling (that is if you want to be efficient are zombies. Before the gold nerf even if the mob didn't give experience I still got some reward toward leveling with gold.  I feel like my choice was marginalized with the gold nerf. maybe all mobs can drop some kind of trash that can be sacrificed for some XP gain.

3. I would rather kill for my wealth and then buy my vessels but people are not selling goods. maybe if EK's were easier to access this would help.

4. I would love to hear how leveling with be made more enjoyable. I would like to have more options on how I level. Maybe its by throwing gold into the sacrifice, maybe its by crafting. maybe its from getting experience from harvesting. and at least allow us to get experience from different types of mobs. Weather its from killing or by sacrificing trash. 

Side note, why do we not have trash vendors?

I'm honestly not sure where we are with gold rates and if we'll be fine tuning them soon. I'll try to track down an answer for that, but ideally we should start building more content to help facilitate the lack of gold in the world or mitigate the current issue that's being brought up. This is one of those weird things in flux that I don't have much visibility on, but I hear ya! While EK vendors may still be difficult to find we're hoping that having vendor nodes in the free cities and temples will help alleviate some of this. 

As for trash vendors, it's on our radar! It's something I really want in game, too, because it does help continue to foster an economy. Once we solidify our schedule and have some more ability to flex our tech asks I'm hoping this will come online. 

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Just now, miraluna said:

What build planned for those XP additions?

I need to double-check where it's scheduled. Once I know more about it I'll let you all know!

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Just now, vkromas said:

I'm honestly not sure where we are with gold rates and if we'll be fine tuning them soon. I'll try to track down an answer for that, but ideally we should start building more content to help facilitate the lack of gold in the world or mitigate the current issue that's being brought up. This is one of those weird things in flux that I don't have much visibility on, but I hear ya! While EK vendors may still be difficult to find we're hoping that having vendor nodes in the free cities and temples will help alleviate some of this. 

As for trash vendors, it's on our radar! It's something I really want in game, too, because it does help continue to foster an economy. Once we solidify our schedule and have some more ability to flex our tech asks I'm hoping this will come online. 

An issue you guys might not have thought of is if you're wanting people to play on Gods Reach is how are they going to get major discs (and we, the community, assume some of those major discs required to be competitive).  They can't be gotten in Gods Reach with them solely dropping off the Ancients since the Ancients don't spawn in Gods Reach.  I know the ancients are a stop gap put in place till thralls are in but it's something to consider. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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3 hours ago, Arkade said:

They have changed the XP curves in 5.9. I would expect that even legendary vessels would get XP at level 29 from rank 10 mobs. We'll see once the campaign comes up, I guess.

Ahhhh! This! I can't believe I forgot to mention this one. Yes, XP curves have changed with 5.90! So with that said, please, please, please give us feedback on these changes. We tend to play like devs rather than actual players, which sometimes limits our ability to get the big picture. Once we have some more feedback we can go from there.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, vkromas said:

Whew, ok. Let me reply to this thread again in stages because this is one of those subjects that's probably going to require more than one stream to cover all the things. Talking with our team we initially wanted this stream to be an "intro" course into vessel creation, leveling, and how a new player can get a new vessel. I'm pretty sure we touched on a lot of those entry level points today, but for the current set of players or those who are more hardcore, we didn't really bring anything new or address a lot of your questions. So, with that being said let me touch on a few things we're going to work toward iterating. This is going to be a collaborative experience with all of you!

1. I completely forgot to mention this point, but I'm sure most of you already knew about this. We have a plan to now broaden XP gain into other aspects of game play, such as harvesting, crafting, and taking outposts.

2. We're going to go back and re-examine the amount of XP given on a mob kill. 50XP for a rank 1 and 50XP for an elite mob just doesn't feel right, and we're going to start establishing a better baseline for mob XP. This is one of those "Le duh" game developers, moment but this specific issue fell under our radar and now that I'm aware of it, I want to fix it ASAP.

3. New player experience and God's Reach fine tuning. We're at a point where we have a general idea of how we want this to feel and want to work on iterating on this experience, including XP gain, overall flow, and feel.

4. Sacrifice amounts: This is a big one and this one is probably going to take the most time to adjust and polish, but I agree with you. Some of the values on our loot items are not at the best rate for level gaining. Let's re-evaluate these values!

I have a lot of other ideas and possible solutions, but they all depend on how receptive the powers that be are to those ideas. I won't go into detail on them since it's always a possibility those ideas will get shot down, but I just want you to know that my current intent is to facilitate a solid playable experience. OK, I see some other posts here asking specific questions and I'll do my best to answer those, now! 

   All of these plans sound fantastic, the xp grind is a bit much at the moment, especially with epic and legendary vessels, combined with the gold nerf, but its not off by much in my opinion, by either adjusting the xp per mob type, adding in the harvesting or crafting idea, or a combination of one or the other would probably solve the problem in my eyes, I would say a good baseline for me a rather hardcore player that enjoys a bit of a grind would be 1-2 hours for a white vessel, than 2-4 for green, 3-5 for blue, 4-6 for purple and 5-8 for gold

That sounds about right to me assuming you knew what to do in order to gain the levels when you started out

Edited by seastodd

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Just now, mandalore said:

An issue you guys might not have thought of is if you're wanting people to play on Gods Reach is how are they going to get major discs (and we, the community, assume some of those major discs required to be competitive).  They can't be gotten in Gods Reach with them solely dropping off the Ancients since the Ancients don't spawn in Gods Reach.  I know the ancients are a stop gap put in place till thralls are in but it's something to consider. 

God's Reach isn't supposed to be a place to get fancy loot, and I think major disciplines qualify as fancy loot. I hope they never drop in God's Reach.


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