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Vessels live stream May 16 - Official discussion thread

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1 minute ago, vkromas said:

As for trash vendors, it's on our radar! It's something I really want in game, too, because it does help continue to foster an economy

Please be careful with that one. Trash vendors can be a monster gold fountain once players find that item they can easily get in bulk.

Q: Do you have metrics available to track sinks, sources, & money supply yet?

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1 minute ago, VaMei said:

Please be careful with that one. Trash vendors can be a monster gold fountain once players find that item they can easily get in bulk.

Q: Do you have metrics available to track sinks, sources, & money supply yet?

Oh no doubt, that's why it's something we want to make sure gets implemented with enough thought and cadence. 

As for metrics, we're getting those! I'm so excited for this specific aspect of development that's currently in the works that I can't stop cheering about it. This actually goes hand-in-hand with trying to better the flow of our new player experience.

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4 minutes ago, vkromas said:

Ahhhh! This! I can't believe I forgot to mention this one. Yes, XP curves have changed with 5.90! So with that said, please, please, please give us feedback on these changes. We tend to play like devs rather than actual players, which sometimes limits our ability to get the big picture. Once we have some more feedback we can go from there.

Would love to with an environment that had mobs over r5 at the moment... will test come back online? I have 3 purple vessels sitting between 15-20 after the past week, bring on those r10 mobs please

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19 hours ago, Spawl said:

I don't want characters to be useless. Right now, on a new Purple or higher vessel, it feels really bad and extremely limited in the ability to gain XP until 15 or so, dependent on the class of course. For some you have to get going as a group during this time until you get the skills you need to be minimally viable especially when you are forced to face the higher mobs for XP. Yeah, this might not be a long-term issue but it is an aspect of the game that needs some thought. 

 

Vessel Questions

  • Do you see any additional types of attributes that can be added to vessels coming?
  • Will the vessel crafting system also be used to modify mount attributes or will it use something similar?
  • How does the procedural map creation system take into account the diversity of levels and types of graves on a map? Are there knobs you adjust to create scarcity or absence of certain options for necromancy in a campaign?

 

These are all fantastic questions, thank you for posing them. I think your first question kind of aligns well with the notion of the Advantage/Disadvantage system on character creation, where you are given an amount of stats to play with for more character customization. While it's something we're hoping to incorporate, it probably won't be in the works until a few cycles from now. 

Vessel crafting and mounts! Wow, this is a pretty unique idea that I don't know if we've considered at all. I'm writing this one down because it seems like they can facilitate each other, but that will also have to be a backburner concept, at least for now.

As for our procedural maps, this is a fantastic question! We do have knobs and values that try to use as a baseline for generating those worlds. As we've found in the past, sometimes those knobs and values need tweaking. So, while it's a great system and far better in campaign map creation than what we had before, we still need to do some tweaking.

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10 minutes ago, mandalore said:

An issue you guys might not have thought of is if you're wanting people to play on Gods Reach is how are they going to get major discs (and we, the community, assume some of those major discs required to be competitive).  They can't be gotten in Gods Reach with them solely dropping off the Ancients since the Ancients don't spawn in Gods Reach.  I know the ancients are a stop gap put in place till thralls are in but it's something to consider. 

Ah, this is a good question. Ideally, we should have a vendor in place selling those major disciplines at a white quality, which means you'll have a bit more flexibility to test out those disciplines before you commit to them at a higher quality. I'm making that vendor now, actually. 

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1 minute ago, vkromas said:

Ah, this is a good question. Ideally, we should have a vendor in place selling those major disciplines at a white quality, which means you'll have a bit more flexibility to test out those disciplines before you commit to them at a higher quality. I'm making that vendor now, actually.  

Got any idea when we will get to see that one? 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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4 hours ago, Namru said:

Regarding leveling with Epic and Legendary vessels, what is the plan to get experience on them?  Currently rank 10 mobs only progress to level 18 - what will be available for people to progress beyond that experience wise?

This is a fantastic question that I'm not quite sure how to answer since we're still trying to find that balance between level curves, adding more ways to gain XP, and facilitating a better flow. Unfortunately, this specific issue is not going to be an easy fix, and it's going to take some time and collaboration with you all to figure out where our major holes are and how we can adjust accordingly.

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1 minute ago, mandalore said:

Got any idea when we will get to see that one? 

This vendor might not make it into our next Live update, but he should be visible within the 5.90 release cycle. I'll make sure to call it out in the patch notes.

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3 minutes ago, vkromas said:

This vendor might not make it into our next Live update, but he should be visible within the 5.90 release cycle. I'll make sure to call it out in the patch notes.

thank you. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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1 hour ago, PaleOne said:

@vkromas

I have been a guild necromancer from the start. And the guild gravedigger and alchemist ... I have done this process as much as anyone- Please read this

In the livestream you had one of the most frustrating thing happen and they didn’t even notice.. this part of the problem- Making vessels as a developer on test is easy— on live it’s WAY TOO MUCH WORK!!

Read on... Please

 

First of all creating a vessel is a big commitment. Leveling Rare or Epic vessels let alone legendary takes a huge amount of time.

We don’t want to do that over and over again.

So you don’t want to continually upgrade and pve forever. We don't want to PVE at all.  We are here to PVP and win the throne war.

So we don’t want to make a vessel, we want to make THE vessel - one and done.

or at least the best vessel we can to be competitive.

So we spend a huge amount of time searching the world for the correct graveyard with the rarity level and race we need.

Then we farm that graveyard until we have several sets of parts to account for flawed assemblies and extra additives.

We farm zombies for hands of the correct rarity.

We get groups together to farm motherlodes for minerals- this requires specific disciplines, specific tools, and potions. Those potions require rare materials ( bone)

Minerals are a rare drop and in order to make ambrosia you need 4 halite of the same rarity and 4 cinnabar of the same rarity.

This isn’t as easy as you think. You could farm motherlodes for 4 hours and get plenty of minerals of various rarities but not enough to make ambrosia

( 3 poor, 3 common,3 uncommon, 3 rare, 3 epic, 3 legendary = no ambrosia)

and to top it off when you do get enough to make a batch it makes 5 ambrosias.

and you need SIX to complete a vessel 

Luckily the rarity of the ambrosia doesn’t affect the rarity of the body part or vessel.

But the rarity of the minerals used to make philosophers solutions/stone does effect the rarity of the vessel.

Which happened in your livestream.

You used Legendary parts and a low level philosophers stone and ended up with a low level vessel —

a huge waste of time.

People don’t even use philosophers stones because it’s near impossible to collect enough minerals of the correct rarity.

and lastly you have now gated all the optional body parts behind acquiring a rare drop from a war tribe — requiring even more hoops and PVE in order to prepare for pvp.

Assemble all those things plus optional food and potions, the right minor disciplines plus all the time waiting for skills to level. You make crating specific jewelry and armor.

You make your first vessel — a necromancer crafting vessel — you can’t even use it to fight because its stats are min maxed for necromancy — in order to get better rolls on your combat vessel...

On Leveling.

Im wondering if any of you knew what us old timers ( the ones who backed this game from the beginning) loved about Shadowbane.

We would be playing Wow if we wanted to pve.

We backed this game because we enjoy player versus player siege style combat.

But you have now made it impossible to avoid PVE if you want to be competitive at PVP

I knew some of y'all would call this out and I'm glad you did. I think this leads into an even bigger discussion about retro-fixing things, especially the crafting loop. With our current campaign cadence, time is an extremely high factor in not only leveling a current vessel, but collecting mats, organizing groups to help search for those rare materials and motherlodes, and crafting items. I can definitely see as a player how these specific aspects can compound into an even more stressful experience. I can totally sympathize when you collect these rare items and then get hit with a FLAWED assembly; it can be pretty disheartening and frustrating. Let me look at how our current recipes are set up and see what things we can do to help mitigate that problem. I can't make any promises on specific items just yet, but I'm all about looking at things as they are and seeing if there is something we can do to help alleviate some of the big pitfalls. 

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16 minutes ago, vkromas said:

Ah, this is a good question. Ideally, we should have a vendor in place selling those major disciplines at a white quality, which means you'll have a bit more flexibility to test out those disciplines before you commit to them at a higher quality. I'm making that vendor now, actually. 

Vendors selling major disciplines will really detract from the allure of hunting for discipline runes. Discipline hunting was a beloved aspect of Shadowbane that drove a lot of small scale pvp, and I am not sure it would have been if there were vendors selling common versions of them.


IhhQKY6.gif

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Jah said:

Vendors selling major disciplines will really detract from the allure of hunting for discipline runes. Discipline hunting was a beloved aspect of Shadowbane that drove a lot of small scale pvp, and I am not sure it would have been if there were vendors selling common versions of them.

I think the big deal is where we got the "at a white quality".  Currently, you don't see majors at anything this low in quality.  You would expect that the low quality majors would give only a feeling of "this is what it does" without any actually practical benefit from it.  So, for example, the Elementalist would get a "firewall" dealing around 95% less damage (so only 5% damage) than actual firewall.  Basically, a bunch of majors that don't do anything worth talking about, but are enough so that you can try things out and get an idea for what they are talking about.

The concern is, if they are going to start making discipline qualities, and we can start crafting disciplines, that we will have to ensure that the Disciplines are not resulting common, but are at least epic in quality to sustain the effect we are used to.

This means 18 Epic Aurelium Ore, an Epic stone runestone, 2 Epic Blood, 2 Epic Silver Ore, and an Epic Parchment Paper.

Edited by Lanie

Milla's Elemental Mastery [Ravens & Crows - See "About Me" Section]:

Spoiler
  • Rosaline: Elemental of Earth, Female Wood-Elf Earth-Keeper, Political Main.
  • Ametrine: Elemental of Fire, Female Nethari Fire-Sanctifer, Endurance Main.
  • Sylphine: Elemental of Air, Female Fae Storm-Caller, Combat Main.
  • Cyandine: Elemental of Water, Female High-Elf Frost-Weaver, Tactical Main.
  • Lumirine: Elemental of Light, Female Human Holy-Crusader, Support Assist.
  • Ebontine: Elemental of Dark, Female Half-Elf Moon-Warden, Survival Assist.

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1 minute ago, Jah said:

Vendors selling major disciplines will really detract from the allure of hunting for discipline runes. Discipline hunting was a beloved aspect of Shadowbane that drove a lot of small scale pvp, and I am not sure it would have been if there were vendors selling common versions of them.

Here I go, again not saying everything I should. What can I say, I'm just so excited about this discussion that I'm not painting the full picture. 

So, an upcoming feature that's currently in the works is introducing an item quality to disciplines which will also require a like quality vessel to slot those disciplines. I'm going to hold off on saying any more about this since Thomas Blair may have a better explanation for it, but hopefully this aspect will still keep some of that Shadowbane feel to it. 

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5 minutes ago, Lanie said:

The concern is, if they are going to start making discipline qualities, and we can start crafting disciplines, that we will have to ensure that the Disciplines are not resulting common, but are at least epic in quality to sustain the effect we are used to.

This means 18 Epic Aurelium Ore, an Epic stone runestone, 2 Epic Blood, 2 Epic Silver Ore, and an Epic Parchment Paper.

4 minutes ago, vkromas said:

So, an upcoming feature that's currently in the works is introducing an item quality to disciplines which will also require a like quality vessel to slot those disciplines. I'm going to hold off on saying any more about this since Thomas Blair may have a better explanation for it, but hopefully this aspect will still keep some of that Shadowbane feel to it. 

So, sorry, add to that list an Epic Vessel.  That is alone a mind-blowing addition.


Milla's Elemental Mastery [Ravens & Crows - See "About Me" Section]:

Spoiler
  • Rosaline: Elemental of Earth, Female Wood-Elf Earth-Keeper, Political Main.
  • Ametrine: Elemental of Fire, Female Nethari Fire-Sanctifer, Endurance Main.
  • Sylphine: Elemental of Air, Female Fae Storm-Caller, Combat Main.
  • Cyandine: Elemental of Water, Female High-Elf Frost-Weaver, Tactical Main.
  • Lumirine: Elemental of Light, Female Human Holy-Crusader, Support Assist.
  • Ebontine: Elemental of Dark, Female Half-Elf Moon-Warden, Survival Assist.

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8 minutes ago, Lanie said:

I think the big deal is where we got the "at a white quality".  Currently, you don't see majors at anything this low in quality.  You would expect that the low quality majors would give only a feeling of "this is what it does" without any actually practical benefit from it.  So, for example, the Elementalist would get a "firewall" dealing around 95% less damage (so only 5% damage) than actual firewall.  Basically, a bunch of majors that don't do anything worth talking about, but are enough so that you can try things out and get an idea for what they are talking about.

I'd prefer to keep major disciplines as high end loot that have a major impact on your character. I think adding readily available low quality versions of them just waters down the concept.


IhhQKY6.gif

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Oh, one other thing I touched on earlier; this subject is such a huge topic that I'm going to try and do at least one more followup live stream for this. Hopefully we'll have some more feedback on the leveling curve changes, maybe some more bug fixes with XP amounts with sacrifice items, and an opportunity to answer some of the more advanced questions. It's hard to talk about all of these things in just one live stream, so if I didn't touch on a point you were curious about please know I didn't intentionally ignore it or forget it. I think next stream will also be a bit more organized and may even include even more player feedback. 

With that said, are there any lingering questions, concerns, or general curiosity that I haven't even touched up that you would like to hear more about? Thanks again for all the quality constructive feedback; it really does help! 

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18 minutes ago, vkromas said:

Here I go, again not saying everything I should. What can I say, I'm just so excited about this discussion that I'm not painting the full picture. 

So, an upcoming feature that's currently in the works is introducing an item quality to disciplines which will also require a like quality vessel to slot those disciplines. I'm going to hold off on saying any more about this since Thomas Blair may have a better explanation for it, but hopefully this aspect will still keep some of that Shadowbane feel to it. 

thats gonna be a real pain, now i gotta level epic and legendary vessels to be competitive, hope the new xp changes are good enough 


hoayaga2.jpg

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@vkromas

Here are the needed fixes for Necromancy

1 make all minerals spawn as common rarity.

2 make philosophers stones no longer affect the overall quality of the vessel.

3 please rethink gating the use of additives behind rare drop items.

4 Make a batch of Ambrosia consist of 6 doses to sync up with body parts needed.

That will cut the necessary effort a lot without making it too easy.

 


www.lotd.org       pking and siege pvp since 1995

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3 minutes ago, Staff said:

thats gonna be a real pain, now i gotta level epic and legendary vessels to be competitive, hope the new xp changes are good enough 

I wouldn't worry about that now.  To enforce this, they would have to worry about all the existing vessels using the existing disciplines.  That means that this sort of update would have to wipe characters to allow them to apply it (or everyone in their current quality vessels using epic quality disciplines could just continue to do so).

But yeah, one day, we will all have to have that quality.  Hopefully vessels are easier to take care of by then.


Milla's Elemental Mastery [Ravens & Crows - See "About Me" Section]:

Spoiler
  • Rosaline: Elemental of Earth, Female Wood-Elf Earth-Keeper, Political Main.
  • Ametrine: Elemental of Fire, Female Nethari Fire-Sanctifer, Endurance Main.
  • Sylphine: Elemental of Air, Female Fae Storm-Caller, Combat Main.
  • Cyandine: Elemental of Water, Female High-Elf Frost-Weaver, Tactical Main.
  • Lumirine: Elemental of Light, Female Human Holy-Crusader, Support Assist.
  • Ebontine: Elemental of Dark, Female Half-Elf Moon-Warden, Survival Assist.

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Many players have been asking for the ability to sacrifice their existing vessels for xp to spend on their new ones.  Would it be relatively easy to just hook up an xp reward to the vessel "delete" button on the main screen?  It could drop sacrifice items (for example, level dust) directly into your spirit bank commensurate to the investment you had in the vessel that was deleted (level/quality/xp, etc.).  Just a thought. @vkromas

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