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Pann

Vessels live stream May 16 - Official discussion thread

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, vkromas said:

Ah, this is a good question. Ideally, we should have a vendor in place selling those major disciplines at a white quality, which means you'll have a bit more flexibility to test out those disciplines before you commit to them at a higher quality. I'm making that vendor now, actually. 

I disagree with the principle here; that players should be able to "experiment" with major disciplines in the comfort and safety of Gods Reach. This is the opposite of the original vision for this game where "choices have consequences". Another oversimplification to cater to a casual market. The game design lately has felt likes it falling down along a slippery slope towards casuals. 

Why do new players need Disciplines? To feel viable? Why aren't your base classes viable without disciplines? Why do they NEED these to be combat-capable in your game world? Disciplines shouldn't be adding power curve to a player, they should be about adding utilities that class might not otherwise have. They shouldn't be about adding "hard counters" just so you don't get murdered in the first 30 seconds; they should be able to providing alternative ways of entering into combat.

This is a bandaid on a larger problem right now. 

One popular justification for this change was that it allows people to "theorycraft" whereas needing to farm disciplines to experiment with them isn't fun or a viable alternative. I disagree. The original vision for this game was that players could make mistakes with how they built their character. It might require you to start over. Sometimes painfully so. Yes this was quoted in context of the passive skill tree, but that vision could still be applied to this area as well.

I don't understand why your team is making this change, it feels designed to cater to new players who shouldn't be experimenting with disciplines out of the gate, to begin with. I consider disciplines "advanced character customization options", not part of the entry-level character creation process. Give new players a target to go after in this game; stop giving them basic versions of everything. I'd point out that by doing so you are likely confusing/overwhelming the new player and not actually helping them decide on a route to pursue.

Edited by Scree

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1 hour ago, Hyriol said:

Many players have been asking for the ability to sacrifice their existing vessels for xp to spend on their new ones.  Would it be relatively easy to just hook up an xp reward to the vessel "delete" button on the main screen?  It could drop sacrifice items (for example, level dust) directly into your spirit bank commensurate to the investment you had in the vessel that was deleted (level/quality/xp, etc.).  Just a thought. @vkromas

It's an interesting thought and I totally understand why someone would want some kind of exchange for their vessel. The concept of exchanging vessels is a notion we've been kicking around, we're just not sure how to go about it with a well thought out system. On top of that, we're also trying to nail down our remaining must have tech asks. Your suggestion is a cool concept for sure, we'll just have to be smart about how we can go about this when we get the ability to get some more tech time. Definitely making a note of this one when we get a bit more bandwidth and time to polish. 

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18 minutes ago, Scree said:

I disagree with the principle here; that players should be able to "experiment" with major disciplines in the comfort and safety of Gods Reach. This is the opposite of the original vision for this game where "choices have consequences". Another oversimplification to cater to a casual market. The game design lately has felt likes it falling down along a slippery slope towards casuals. 

Why do new players need Disciplines? To feel viable? Why aren't your base classes viable without disciplines? Why do they NEED these to be combat-capable in your game world? Disciplines shouldn't be adding power curve to a player, they should be about adding utilities that class might not otherwise have. They shouldn't be about adding "hard counters" just so you don't get murdered in the first 30 seconds; they should be able to providing alternative ways of entering into combat.

This is a bandaid on a larger problem right now. 

One popular justification for this change was that it allows people to "theorycraft" whereas needing to farm disciplines to experiment with them isn't fun or a viable alternative. I disagree. The original vision for this game was that players could make mistakes with how they built their character. It might require you to start over. Sometimes painfully so. Yes this was quoted in context of the passive skill tree, but that vision could still be applied to this area as well.

I don't understand why your team is making this change, it feels designed to cater to new players who shouldn't be experimenting with disciplines out of the gate, to begin with. I consider disciplines "advanced character customization options", not part of the entry-level character creation process. Give new players a target to go after in this game; stop giving them basic versions of everything. I'd point out that by doing so you are likely confusing/overwhelming the new player and not actually helping them decide on a route to pursue.

You bring up some good points, especially how we could potentially be overwhelming new players or confusing them. We're in an interesting point in our dev cycle at the moment where we are still trying to create a game loop, entice new players, and also keep our current player base engaged. It's a tough line to toe, in all honesty, and from the sidelines it might seem very confusing, because we have so many irons in the fire. I don't have an easy answer for you with this specific subject because it really isn't an easy subject to tackle. From my understanding the concept of Gods Reach was introduced as a way to introduce new players to our game mechanics while also supplementing them with a new player experience. We're still working on this process and we've got some other things going through the pipe that may also facilitate game play for our more advanced players where what you just said (choices matter) will in fact be present. 

With all that being said, it's just a matter of time and patience that we're asking for on the part of our players. Our ultimate goal is to make something we can all enjoy and be proud of, but that kind of game play requires some collaboration across the board. I don't know if I've alleviated or increased your concerns, but that's why community engagement is one of our biggest priorities. 

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, Scree said:

Why do new players need Disciplines? To feel viable? Why aren't your base classes viable without disciplines? Why do they NEED these to be combat-capable in your game world? Disciplines shouldn't be adding power curve to a player, they should be about adding utilities that class might not otherwise have. They shouldn't be about adding "hard counters" just so you don't get murdered in the first 30 seconds; they should be able to providing alternative ways of entering into combat.

In SB the classes were far stronger than the disciplines but in CF the disciplines are just as strong or often stronger.  I play a healer so I'll use healer disciplines.  Field Surgeon has two strong heals in rescue and purgative and a pathetically weak one in rehabilitation.  Crusader Cleric has 4 (5 if you count blocking but you can't always be assumed to be blocking) base heals in Tend Wounds (a good scaling "cleave heal" that heals the target and the caster), Holy Symbol (a strong aoe heal with a strong buff component), Illuminate (a strong aoe fire and forget heal that replenishes resource for the group) and Hand of Gods is a weak heal attached to a root.  Purgative and rescue are easily as strong as any two base crusader heals and that's what gets me.  The disciplines in CF are stronger than the disciplines in SB were by a large margin of power.  Commander and Bounty Hunter were arguably two of the most sought out disciplines in SB and both added utility the base class might not have but nothing that other classes couldn't do better.  Commander brought a damage buff but one that was lower than Crusader or Bard.  Commander brought a movement speed buff but one that was lower than Scout. Commander gave you a stun break, not required but nice.  Commander brought the ability to command siege engines without buying a rod every time and it was nice because it saved you money but it wasn't required.  Bounty Hunter brought track but one that was less effective than Scout, Huntress or Ranger.  You could be plenty viable without those but having them brought more utility.  There were a few disciplines in SB that gave you transform powers that people built neat meta builds around but they weren't required.  IN CF major discs are just as powerful as our class abilities and in some instances more powerful.  There is a huge power difference in the people with a major disc and without.  Is that intentional?  How do you expect that to play out when people are behind in base power, gear, logistics and game knowledge. 

 

Scree is right in his statement.  The power of disciplines compared to classes is too high.  Classes should be the major source of chars abilities and power curve, not disciplines.  Disciplines should be neat powers that give us utility, not core abilities. 

Edited by mandalore

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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26 minutes ago, Scree said:

I don't understand why your team is making this change, it feels designed to cater to new players who shouldn't be experimenting with disciplines out of the gate, to begin with. I consider disciplines "advanced character customization options", not part of the entry-level character creation process. Give new players a target to go after in this game; stop giving them basic versions of everything. I'd point out that by doing so you are likely confusing/overwhelming the new player and not actually helping them decide on a route to pursue.

What I suspect is that, with the addition to the "Discipline Talent Tree", there will be a LOT more extension into disciplines, much more than currently.  Major Disciplines will go from an item that gives 4 more skills to an item that gives an entire grid of talents to level up.  I expect the way it will work is you will grind to the regular level 30 cap, then you can grind your current Disciplines.  The quality of disciplines indicates how many talent points you can grind with it.  So like, you might get only 10 points on a white Discipline, but 60 points on an orange Discipline.  More so, white disciplines might not even have access to a tree at all, only giving basic cheap options with no ability to upgrade anything (0 points, no tree at all), while quality disciplines will get the entailed 'massive tree' (such as the 60 points at legendary).  I also suspect that, if you have a less quality discipline, you are landed with a less quality tree, being completely unable to see anything you could gain at a higher quality.

That alone should make you feel a bit better about being still left with high level customization and pursuit.

However, I'm still surprised that no one is complaining that they are giving us something new to grind for.  Though, I hear something like this was similar to SB, so maybe that's why there are no complaints.


Milla's Elemental Mastery [Ravens & Crows - See "About Me" Section]:

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14 minutes ago, Lanie said:

What I suspect is that, with the addition to the "Discipline Talent Tree", there will be a LOT more extension into disciplines, much more than currently.  Major Disciplines will go from an item that gives 4 more skills to an item that gives an entire grid of talents to level up.  I expect the way it will work is you will grind to the regular level 30 cap, then you can grind your current Disciplines.  The quality of disciplines indicates how many talent points you can grind with it.  So like, you might get only 10 points on a white Discipline, but 60 points on an orange Discipline.  More so, white disciplines might not even have access to a tree at all, only giving basic cheap options with no ability to upgrade anything (0 points, no tree at all), while quality disciplines will get the entailed 'massive tree' (such as the 60 points at legendary).  I also suspect that, if you have a less quality discipline, you are landed with a less quality tree, being completely unable to see anything you could gain at a higher quality.

That alone should make you feel a bit better about being still left with high level customization and pursuit.

However, I'm still surprised that no one is complaining that they are giving us something new to grind for.  Though, I hear something like this was similar to SB, so maybe that's why there are no complaints.

Where did you get any of that info? 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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2 hours ago, Scree said:

players could make mistakes with how they built their character. It might require you to start over. Sometimes painfully so.

Understand that the kind of system you're proposing kills the variety of builds players use.  In such a system, nobody takes risks on trying out unconventional builds and everone ends up being one of the same cookie-cutter builds that have been proven to work.

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1 hour ago, Tiberius_Invictus said:

Understand that the kind of system you're proposing kills the variety of builds players use.  In such a system, nobody takes risks on trying out unconventional builds and everone ends up being one of the same cookie-cutter builds that have been proven to work.

And that was half the fun of SB!!

experimenting with different templates was the best!

hard to do that know as you would feel totally defeated if you built a legendary vessel and gear and didnt work out-- months of work..


www.lotd.org       pking and siege pvp since 1995

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4 hours ago, PaleOne said:

@vkromas

Here are the needed fixes for Necromancy

1 make all minerals spawn as common rarity.

2 make philosophers stones no longer affect the overall quality of the vessel.

3 please rethink gating the use of additives behind rare drop items.

4 Make a batch of Ambrosia consist of 6 doses to sync up with body parts needed.

That will cut the necessary effort a lot without making it too easy.

 

@thomasblair @jtoddcoleman


www.lotd.org       pking and siege pvp since 1995

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Posted (edited)
Quote

So, an upcoming feature that's currently in the works is introducing an item quality to disciplines which will also require a like quality vessel to slot those disciplines

So vessels are not optional, even for casual players, because (beyond the insane[and justified] stat difference between white >> green), you won't be able to equip disciplines that are competitive against epic+ discs. 


I'm also going to put this out there, the community director is often straight up unprofessional and discourteous to the game dev on stream. I appreciate the honest insight that the game dev provides, even if she doesn't always have a satisfactory answer.  

Edited by Duhmonstaaa
Grammar

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So I have to take issue with something that was said early in the live stream.  Pann made the claim that you "never" need a vessel if you don't want one.  While technically that is true in the sense that the game doesn't "require" you to make a vessel to log in and play but that's not really the full story and its disingenuous to make that claim in my opinion.  If you want to be even mildly competitive against well quite frankly anything, rank 10 npc, players, etc you "need" to a vessel.  the standard default one isn't really viable beyond maybe the initial learning phase in my opinion and this is coming from someone who doesn't have a vessel and is using the standard default one and its quite frankly painful but I don't have access to vessels for reasons at this time so it is what it is.......   just my opinion  :)  

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Duhmonstaaa said:

So vessels are not optional, even for casual players, because (beyond the insane[and justified] stat difference between white >> green), you won't be able to equip disciplines that are competitive against epic+ discs. 


I'm also going to put this out there, the community director is often straight up unprofessional and discourteous to the game dev on stream. I appreciate the honest insight that the game dev provides, even if she doesn't always have a satisfactory answer.  

I agree.  That was very unprofessional to that developer.  She was just trying to be full disclosure and she was completely shot down.... and then the stream was derailed to NON vessel related things.  I like the other lady.  she was quite the professional :)  

 

ok edited.  just reached another part of the stream where the young lady was just explaining the gold situation which we have been asking for for a while and then pann interrupted her and basically talked down to her and basically told her she should only be saying things that are positive.  I will be honest.  if all you telling me is the positive and your not being real with me, I stop trusting you and what you have to say because I start to feel like all your doing is spinning things to make yourself look better.  once again.  that other dev was doing a great job and was treated very disrespectfully........

Edited by Drizzzt

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25 minutes ago, Drizzzt said:

So I have to take issue with something that was said early in the live stream.  Pann made the claim that you "never" need a vessel if you don't want one.  While technically that is true in the sense that the game doesn't "require" you to make a vessel to log in and play but that's not really the full story and its disingenuous to make that claim in my opinion.  If you want to be even mildly competitive against well quite frankly anything, rank 10 npc, players, etc you "need" to a vessel.  the standard default one isn't really viable beyond maybe the initial learning phase in my opinion and this is coming from someone who doesn't have a vessel and is using the standard default one and its quite frankly painful but I don't have access to vessels for reasons at this time so it is what it is.......   just my opinion  :)  

The big problem is....

The dev's dont seem to be playing the same game we are. Just like they didn't notice the colossal downgrade of the vessel because they used a philosophers stone.

They are used to messing around in developer land with developer tools.

I am glad that @vkromas Came into this thread and actually started reading.

I don't think they have any idea how much work this game is and how little fun is left.


www.lotd.org       pking and siege pvp since 1995

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4 hours ago, mandalore said:

Where did you get any of that info? 

He's guessing.

 

3 hours ago, Tiberius_Invictus said:

Understand that the kind of system you're proposing kills the variety of builds players use.  In such a system, nobody takes risks on trying out unconventional builds and everone ends up being one of the same cookie-cutter builds that have been proven to work.

BS. People who want to lose will do exactly that. People who want to win will invest resources to try out new builds. Right now though, the disciplines are such an integral part of so many classes, you don't truly get choices. If the classes could stand on their own, with disciplines to supplement purposefully designed shortcomings in those classes, this would be an entirely different story.

The only thing forcing cookie-cutter builds is a lack of classes being competitive with one another on their own, without disciplines. Needing _any_ discipline to be effective at your class is a failure of design and balance.

 

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1 minute ago, PaleOne said:

I don't think they have any idea how much work this game is and how little fun is left.

Designing layers and layers of systems... it's very easy to overlook this aspect. A smaller development team means more pressure is put on the individual team members to produce. I imagine when they get done at work for the day, the very last thing they want to do is log in and spend 18 hours farming stuff; become pvp viable than discover that the moment they finally do produce that character, the servers are slated to be wiped. I know I certainly wouldn't (and I don't login unless I need to gather some data right now).

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Drizzzt said:

Pann made the claim that you "never" need a vessel if you don't want one.  While technically that is true in the sense that the game doesn't "require" you to make a vessel to log in and play but that's not really the full story and its disingenuous to make that claim in my opinion.

This is like saying you don't need to level or equip gear or any very basic character building/progression layer. She did end up saying you need to for the most part but it didn't make any sense to make the comment especially if it is aimed at new players (customers) whom she seems to be pandering to.

7 hours ago, mandalore said:

The power of disciplines compared to classes is too high.  Classes should be the major source of chars abilities and power curve, not disciplines.  Disciplines should be neat powers that give us utility, not core abilities. 

Totally agree. Maybe one day they'll have the resources to add more to the base classes and promos, but I hope that Disciplines added go more in the utility or horizontal path. They should add more ways to play instead of simply making better options that replace the base kit because it is lacking.

Edited by APE

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, vkromas said:

These are all fantastic questions, thank you for posing them. I think your first question kind of aligns well with the notion of the Advantage/Disadvantage system on character creation, where you are given an amount of stats to play with for more character customization. While it's something we're hoping to incorporate, it probably won't be in the works until a few cycles from now.

Can you comment if there has been any talk to make Adv & Dis more then basic core stat stacking? @vkromas

We get stats from race, vessel, leveling, talents, passive training, and gear already. Being able to start with less/more of particular stats isn't very different.

You've made a lot of stats/attributes that can be obtained here and there, but could be used a lot more on top of quite a lot of things that either don't exist or not in a way that can be modified currently.

Things like Far-sight/Stealth Detection, Runspeed, Stealth Run Speed,  Mount Speed, Food Consumption Rate, Dodge Pips, Resists, Range, Heal/Damage AOE Size, CC resists, Dodge/Evade chance, Life Steal, Attack Speed, Debuff/Buff % increase/decrease, Encumbrance/Bag Space, For every empty Discipline/Passive slot gain +X% of Dmg/Heal/CC Resist/Armor/etc. All of which could be an Adv or Disadv with +/- modifiers.

Exchange increased food consumption for increased run speed. Swap an extra dodge pip for less CC resists. Some of these add to the hit harder, heal more, take less damage that most stats provide, but several are more utility and expand ways to play and build a character.

Races and Disciplines add some of these things, but I'd really like to see them be part of character creation as a way to customize further beyond the core stat stacking that comes from multiple systems already.

Edited by APE

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12 hours ago, PaleOne said:

The big problem is....

The dev's dont seem to be playing the same game we are. Just like they didn't notice the colossal downgrade of the vessel because they used a philosophers stone.

They are used to messing around in developer land with developer tools.

I am glad that @vkromas Came into this thread and actually started reading.

I don't think they have any idea how much work this game is and how little fun is left.

I think I've mentioned this before, but this is definitely something we're cognizant of in house. We're working on actually playing more like players now rather than game devs. In fact, I just heard someone say "I played this last night and as I player I think it needs tweaking". It's just one of those difficult aspects of game development, but we're working on doing more engagement with our game.  Our game is pretty intimidating and we are going to try and make strides to continue to iterate on it. 

 

10 hours ago, APE said:

Can you comment if there has been any talk to make Adv & Dis more then basic core stat stacking? @vkromas

We get stats from race, vessel, leveling, talents, passive training, and gear already. Being able to start with less/more of particular stats isn't very different.

You've made a lot of stats/attributes that can be obtained here and there, but could be used a lot more on top of quite a lot of things that either don't exist or not in a way that can be modified currently.

Things like Far-sight/Stealth Detection, Runspeed, Stealth Run Speed,  Mount Speed, Food Consumption Rate, Dodge Pips, Resists, Range, Heal/Damage AOE Size, CC resists, Dodge/Evade chance, Life Steal, Attack Speed, Debuff/Buff % increase/decrease, Encumbrance/Bag Space, For every empty Discipline/Passive slot gain +X% of Dmg/Heal/CC Resist/Armor/etc. All of which could be an Adv or Disadv with +/- modifiers.

Exchange increased food consumption for increased run speed. Swap an extra dodge pip for less CC resists. Some of these add to the hit harder, heal more, take less damage that most stats provide, but several are more utility and expand ways to play and build a character.

Races and Disciplines add some of these things, but I'd really like to see them be part of character creation as a way to customize further beyond the core stat stacking that comes from multiple systems already.

The Advantage/Disadvantage system is something we've talked about and still want to do. It's just a matter of scheduling it and planning for it accordingly. Most of y'all have played live products before so you understand that balancing is an ongoing thing, and it's something we're also aware of. It's an ongoing process that can feel pretty weird from both sides of the fence and we're still trying to find our cadence between balancing what's already in game and what's coming up. Hopefully we can keep making significant and noticeable strides in that regard. 

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11 hours ago, APE said:

Can you comment if there has been any talk to make Adv & Dis more then basic core stat stacking? @vkromas

We get stats from race, vessel, leveling, talents, passive training, and gear already. Being able to start with less/more of particular stats isn't very different.

You've made a lot of stats/attributes that can be obtained here and there, but could be used a lot more on top of quite a lot of things that either don't exist or not in a way that can be modified currently.

Things like Far-sight/Stealth Detection, Runspeed, Stealth Run Speed,  Mount Speed, Food Consumption Rate, Dodge Pips, Resists, Range, Heal/Damage AOE Size, CC resists, Dodge/Evade chance, Life Steal, Attack Speed, Debuff/Buff % increase/decrease, Encumbrance/Bag Space, For every empty Discipline/Passive slot gain +X% of Dmg/Heal/CC Resist/Armor/etc. All of which could be an Adv or Disadv with +/- modifiers.

Exchange increased food consumption for increased run speed. Swap an extra dodge pip for less CC resists. Some of these add to the hit harder, heal more, take less damage that most stats provide, but several are more utility and expand ways to play and build a character.

Races and Disciplines add some of these things, but I'd really like to see them be part of character creation as a way to customize further beyond the core stat stacking that comes from multiple systems already.

Did you play SB ape?  If you didn’t you should log into one of the emulated Sb servers and look at the creation runes.  CF is a copy of SB in a lot of ways.  The runes themselves were a mix of stat caps, skill caps, some defense (resistances and defense itself), better attack rating, movement speed, better regens and eventually they added some race specific stat caps for lore/balance reasons.  


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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5 minutes ago, vkromas said:

I think I've mentioned this before, but this is definitely something we're cognizant of in house. We're working on actually playing more like players now rather than game devs. In fact, I just heard someone say "I played this last night and as I player I think it needs tweaking". It's just one of those difficult aspects of game development, but we're working on doing more engagement with our game.  Our game is pretty intimidating and we are going to try and make strides to continue to iterate on it. 

The dev team should work with some of the prominent guild leaders and attend some of the sieges so you can get a feel for how they play out.  


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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