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Lanie

Eternal Leadership

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As a mechanic, having the Leadership buff present is a nice idea, but the cost benefit analysis for it has a huge problem.  Way of the Leader isn't worth a Passive Skill Slot, once you have access to various disciplines, as it doesn't give nearly as much.  37 more attack/support, 10% more critical damage at 2% more chance, Lifesteal and Thorns Bonus (which do nothing if you have neither).  The non-combat variant is slightly more useful, as it can stack well with a couple of exploration disciplines, but only because you usually still have space left in that tray.

In turn, I'm left wondering why this is even a passive.  Wouldn't it just be a whole lot more fundamental if, like all of the other profession training you apply, it's just in use the moment you learn it, and stays forever?  As is, it takes a lot of training to apply even a single point in most of the tree, so the expense is already really high.  Making it automatic would make it feel more like a game feature, instead of being sidelined so much, considering other limitations like needing a party, and needing to keep together.

And, again, it is the only tree across all professions that the entire tree does nothing if you do not expend a passive slot for it.  If you want to hold a degree of replacing restriction, then you can just make sure that the Leadership buff does not activate at all if there is no valid Footmen in range.


Milla's Elemental Mastery [Ravens & Crows - See "About Me" Section]:

Spoiler
  • Rosaline: Elemental of Earth, Female Wood-Elf Earth-Keeper, Political Main.
  • Ametrine: Elemental of Fire, Female Nethari Fire-Sanctifer, Endurance Main.
  • Sylphine: Elemental of Air, Female Fae Storm-Caller, Combat Main.
  • Cyandine: Elemental of Water, Female High-Elf Frost-Weaver, Tactical Main.
  • Lumirine: Elemental of Light, Female Human Holy-Crusader, Support Assist.
  • Ebontine: Elemental of Dark, Female Half-Elf Moon-Warden, Survival Assist.

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Maybe it's easier to fix this cost by increasing the leadership effect.The leadership branch reminds me the commander rune in sb. It seems better to keep it as a separate feature.

Most of balance issues will be fixed when the game dev will more advanced.

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7 minutes ago, Franck83 said:

Maybe it's easier to fix this cost by increasing the leadership effect.The leadership branch reminds me the commander rune in sb. It seems better to keep it as a separate feature.

Most of balance issues will be fixed when the game dev will more advanced.

I wouldn't mind if there was specifically, both.  You could train leadership, which gives a basic effect, and you can stack that benefit with a really cool discipline that boosts your leadership ability to a level that kicks arse (but the discipline requires a passive slot).  In this way, there could be more than one Discipline that magnifies the effect in different ways.  But making an exception for one profession out of all of the list of others just seems really weird.


Milla's Elemental Mastery [Ravens & Crows - See "About Me" Section]:

Spoiler
  • Rosaline: Elemental of Earth, Female Wood-Elf Earth-Keeper, Political Main.
  • Ametrine: Elemental of Fire, Female Nethari Fire-Sanctifer, Endurance Main.
  • Sylphine: Elemental of Air, Female Fae Storm-Caller, Combat Main.
  • Cyandine: Elemental of Water, Female High-Elf Frost-Weaver, Tactical Main.
  • Lumirine: Elemental of Light, Female Human Holy-Crusader, Support Assist.
  • Ebontine: Elemental of Dark, Female Half-Elf Moon-Warden, Survival Assist.

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This has been brought up before, the answer was leadership passive is strong.


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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21 hours ago, Lanie said:

As a mechanic, having the Leadership buff present is a nice idea, but the cost benefit analysis for it has a huge problem.  Way of the Leader isn't worth a Passive Skill Slot, once you have access to various disciplines, as it doesn't give nearly as much.  37 more attack/support, 10% more critical damage at 2% more chance, Lifesteal and Thorns Bonus (which do nothing if you have neither).  The non-combat variant is slightly more useful, as it can stack well with a couple of exploration disciplines, but only because you usually still have space left in that tray.

When analyzing this please keep in mind that the buffs are being applied to everyone in your group and stacking with whatever buffs they are already giving themselves from the other disciplines and/or powers like you referred to. 

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For 280 hours of training, you can get 12.5 attack power for up to 5 other people situationally (as party leader only, while within a limited range, only while sacrificing a combat passive slot).
Later, for 420 hours of training, you can get another 25 attack power stacked upon this.

For 70 hours of training, you can get 25 attack power for just yourself unconditionally.
Later, for 210 hours of training, you can double this bonus, then again at 280 hours.  After this, further pursuit of this bonus becomes conditional to weapon style, but it does continue to scale upwards for a while.

The balance for effect was already induced by training hours required (Keep in mind, all times above are in default rates).  Adding the extra "a combat passive slot" requirement is swaying the impact of training too heavily as is.  I mean, unless you want to remove any other situationality requirement (for example, applying the best resulting value of any party member, including while solo), it doesn't actually scale very well.  The concept is sound enough that I didn't feel it would be constructive to expect any other shift of situationality.

Meanwhile, I've also heard a lot of reports about end-game critical capping being a non-issue when fully geared.  So technically, the value and integrity of this passive only diminishes.

In reverse though, I would expect that if there were disciplines that added additional features to the "Way of the Leader" Passive Skill (without costing more passive slots, hopefully), that would then possibly flow a lot better (depending in most on what features are being applied and how).  Additionally, if each class/race had a default feature for "Way of the Leader" that is available without any Leadership/Command training, that could also validate this passive.  But right now, it does not hold it's weight.


Milla's Elemental Mastery [Ravens & Crows - See "About Me" Section]:

Spoiler
  • Rosaline: Elemental of Earth, Female Wood-Elf Earth-Keeper, Political Main.
  • Ametrine: Elemental of Fire, Female Nethari Fire-Sanctifer, Endurance Main.
  • Sylphine: Elemental of Air, Female Fae Storm-Caller, Combat Main.
  • Cyandine: Elemental of Water, Female High-Elf Frost-Weaver, Tactical Main.
  • Lumirine: Elemental of Light, Female Human Holy-Crusader, Support Assist.
  • Ebontine: Elemental of Dark, Female Half-Elf Moon-Warden, Survival Assist.

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3 hours ago, Lanie said:

For 280 hours of training, you can get 12.5 attack power for up to 5 other people situationally (as party leader only, while within a limited range, only while sacrificing a combat passive slot).
Later, for 420 hours of training, you can get another 25 attack power stacked upon this.

For 70 hours of training, you can get 25 attack power for just yourself unconditionally.
Later, for 210 hours of training, you can double this bonus, then again at 280 hours.  After this, further pursuit of this bonus becomes conditional to weapon style, but it does continue to scale upwards for a while.

You're looking at it in terms of individual gain.

They're looking at it in terms of actual gain, which is every modifier multiplied by five.

I'd honestly prefer if the buffs were made stronger and each one had its OWN passive because as is most of the buffs are lackluster specifically because you have all of them at one time. If we could replace AP with type specific damage, use type specific armor modifiers, do something crazy like 500% bonus thorns, etc. they'd not only be worth the slot, but would be meaningful group and vessel speccing decisions for the leader. Currently they're just kinda like "oh guess I better take all of it" and there's no rhyme or reason to it other than "you're slightly better at a bunch of things.

With more specialized, more powerful buffs with their own passives now you have a reason to be. You've got a buff that is only TRULY effective and worth putting on if you're leading a specific group composition. That always seemed like the better tradeoff for leadership. It's not omnipowerful, but it should be powerful when directed at a specific purpose. Like a fire damage spec group. Or an anti-banners spec. Or an anti-crushing meta, etc.

Leadership should be the juice that makes tight uniform group specs worth the squeeze when compared to more broad specs with a more diverse roster, and should be balanced by the fact that, like a healer in a more broad spec the leader is crucial to its function.

Making leadership "always on" is a surefire way to ensure leadership continues to be boring "win more" mechanic that doesn't do anything interesting in combat because if you're lumping everything in the tree on the whole group with no drawbacks it CAN'T be super good.


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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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1 hour ago, PopeUrban said:

You're looking at it in terms of individual gain.

They're looking at it in terms of actual gain, which is every modifier multiplied by five.

1 hour ago, PopeUrban said:

For 280 hours of training, you can get 12.5 attack power for up to 5 other people situationally (as party leader only, while within a limited range, only while sacrificing a combat passive slot).

No, I was looking at the compound effect.  It still doesn't scale up well enough.

1 hour ago, PopeUrban said:

I'd honestly prefer if the buffs were made stronger and each one had its OWN passive because as is most of the buffs are lackluster specifically because you have all of them at one time. If we could replace AP with type specific damage, use type specific armor modifiers, do something crazy like 500% bonus thorns, etc. they'd not only be worth the slot, but would be meaningful group and vessel speccing decisions for the leader. Currently they're just kinda like "oh guess I better take all of it" and there's no rhyme or reason to it other than "you're slightly better at a bunch of things.

With more specialized, more powerful buffs with their own passives now you have a reason to be. You've got a buff that is only TRULY effective and worth putting on if you're leading a specific group composition. That always seemed like the better tradeoff for leadership. It's not omnipowerful, but it should be powerful when directed at a specific purpose. Like a fire damage spec group. Or an anti-banners spec. Or an anti-crushing meta, etc.

Leadership should be the juice that makes tight uniform group specs worth the squeeze when compared to more broad specs with a more diverse roster, and should be balanced by the fact that, like a healer in a more broad spec the leader is crucial to its function.

Making leadership "always on" is a surefire way to ensure leadership continues to be boring "win more" mechanic that doesn't do anything interesting in combat because if you're lumping everything in the tree on the whole group with no drawbacks it CAN'T be super good.

5 hours ago, Lanie said:

In reverse though, I would expect that if there were disciplines that added additional features to the "Way of the Leader" Passive Skill (without costing more passive slots, hopefully), that would then possibly flow a lot better (depending in most on what features are being applied and how).  Additionally, if each class/race had a default feature for "Way of the Leader" that is available without any Leadership/Command training, that could also validate this passive.

For the rest, we're on the same page.  Sure, making it not a passive is an idea, but I also agree that another direction would be to make it be worth a passive (or even make more than one passive).

Additionally, also agreeing on the absolute lack of flavour presented by it.  You could have some great team play setups of different groups of a battalion had their own 'formation' that dictated an automatic benefit presented of the entire group, that could itself be unique to that group (often complimenting the composition of the team itself).  This sort of thing could be really neat, and I would really support the idea.

However, that also requires more mechanisms to be developed, so I didn't start with that idea.  It's also a lot harder to test with smaller population sizes.  So, I wasn't going to over-complicate the solution.


Milla's Elemental Mastery [Ravens & Crows - See "About Me" Section]:

Spoiler
  • Rosaline: Elemental of Earth, Female Wood-Elf Earth-Keeper, Political Main.
  • Ametrine: Elemental of Fire, Female Nethari Fire-Sanctifer, Endurance Main.
  • Sylphine: Elemental of Air, Female Fae Storm-Caller, Combat Main.
  • Cyandine: Elemental of Water, Female High-Elf Frost-Weaver, Tactical Main.
  • Lumirine: Elemental of Light, Female Human Holy-Crusader, Support Assist.
  • Ebontine: Elemental of Dark, Female Half-Elf Moon-Warden, Survival Assist.

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