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1 hour ago, oneply said:

Battlegrounds/arenas destroyed mmos. Before those existed you didn’t see the masses gathered inside the cities waiting for the next queue to pop. People were out in the open world doing things. 

QFT.

Before arenas, balance in MMO PvP wasn't actually a thing. A class didn't need to have a fair shot against every other class in any situation. If your build was bad at some situation, you either avoid that situation or change your build.

As soon as an MMO includes arenas as a competitive feature, every class becomes very bland and generic with very few unique features.

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59 minutes ago, PinkFluffyPanda said:

I think you have misunderstood me, i dont want it to be an instanced arena, it should be a place you had to walk to, and though the world to get to. Same like when you wanna go farm X mob somewhere in the world. 

I cant see how a place for proper PvP is ruining the game? You like zerg vs zerg fest with bad fps during sieges, where PvP "skill" is based on how good you are to roll your forehead around on your keyboard, and that's fine by me, I just like to test PvP skill in another way. 

I play crowfall because i like the endless class build combos which i find fun to try out and see if they work or not, and that would IMO be fun to test that in an actual PvP fight. 

Furthermore I fail to see how arena is ruining the game for those who dont want to use it?

“Proper” PvP? Elaborate please. 

What is a Zerg to you? 

Siege lag is an entirely different issue and really shouldn’t exist at launch. It’s also not the only PvP, in fact it’s a small part of the current PvP in game. 

Have you ever played a mmorpg with no arena but adds it later on? Or played one before battleground/arenas were even a thing? A lot of the people in this game remember those days and understand what ruined the experience. Don’t be surprised that there is so much dissent against it. 

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21 minutes ago, oneply said:

“Proper” PvP? Elaborate please. 

What is a Zerg to you? 

Siege lag is an entirely different issue and really shouldn’t exist at launch. It’s also not the only PvP, in fact it’s a small part of the current PvP in game. 

Have you ever played a mmorpg with no arena but adds it later on? Or played one before battleground/arenas were even a thing? A lot of the people in this game remember those days and understand what ruined the experience. Don’t be surprised that there is so much dissent against it. 

Proper PvP to me is when PvP is skill based, not gear dependent, proper PvP to me is when individual player skill affects the output significantly, e.g 1v1 to 5v5 Not saying that's the right definition of it, but its my take on it. 

 

A zerg to me is basicly every single siege. One horde of players against another horde. 

I agree that siege is not the only PvP, and to be honest allmost the only thing i enjoy in the game currently is the class build mechanics and the open world PvP, the latter will luckily only get better when the playerbase increase.

Personally im not even participating in sieges as I simply dont find them fun due to it mostly being a horde vs horde kind of mix between a cluster f... and a "roll-your-head-on-a-keyboard" contest. 

Cant say i have, as you most likely can tell im not a veteran MMORPG player. 

Lastly im not saying that only what i say is right and everyone else is wrong, far from it actually. This is simply my suggestion to improving a game which i find fun, for the most part. 

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So you replaced Zerg with horde. Doesn’t clarify anything. We’ve had sieges with 1v0, 5v5, 5v20, 20v10, etc etc. Even with 200+ people playing. 

If you’re not participating then why do you have an opinion about them? There’s a whole lot more organization and strategy going on in those cluster custards then you might realize. 

homogenizing Crowfall to fall in line with every other face planted mmo doesn’t help it long run. 

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, oneply said:

So you replaced Zerg with horde. Doesn’t clarify anything. We’ve had sieges with 1v0, 5v5, 5v20, 20v10, etc etc. Even with 200+ people playing. 

If you’re not participating then why do you have an opinion about them? There’s a whole lot more organization and strategy going on in those cluster custards then you might realize. 

homogenizing Crowfall to fall in line with every other face planted mmo doesn’t help it long run. 

I have participated in them, thats where my opinion come from. 

Im well aware that tactics and organisation is a big part of sieges, but I think we can agree that there is not much individual player PvP skill involved (if any at all) and that's what I miss.

There is ofc a lot of tactical skill involved and that you will not find as much in smaller scale fights. So it depends what floats your boat IMO. 

From my point of view my suggestion is not homogenizing the game to fall in line with every other mmo, as I see it, I want to expand its PvP to people who like skill based PvP, where individual skill matters, not numbers and gear. And I cant see why it has to be on the cost of what else is in the game, players are free to do what they like? 

Edited by PinkFluffyPanda

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3 minutes ago, PinkFluffyPanda said:

I want to expand its PvP to people who like skill based PvP, where individual skill matters, not numbers and gear.

Sadly the trend has been to trivialize skill in games. Allowing people the ability to overpower other players with gear, levels, visa card, ect  has been a trend for a while now. Perhaps its tied into a greater trend that involves participation awards for everyone, safe spaces, politically correct speak and other nonsense. 

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Posted (edited)

 

59 minutes ago, PinkFluffyPanda said:

Proper PvP to me is when PvP is skill based, not gear dependent, proper PvP to me is when individual player skill affects the output significantly, e.g 1v1 to 5v5 Not saying that's the right definition of it, but its my take on it. 

 

A zerg to me is basicly every single siege. One horde of players against another horde. 

I agree that siege is not the only PvP, and to be honest allmost the only thing i enjoy in the game currently is the class build mechanics and the open world PvP, the latter will luckily only get better when the playerbase increase.

Personally im not even participating in sieges as I simply dont find them fun due to it mostly being a horde vs horde kind of mix between a cluster f... and a "roll-your-head-on-a-keyboard" contest. 

Cant say i have, as you most likely can tell im not a veteran MMORPG player. 

Lastly im not saying that only what i say is right and everyone else is wrong, far from it actually. This is simply my suggestion to improving a game which i find fun, for the most part. 

Why do you keep playing games where a huge part of the design is improving gear?

Why did you buy in to a game where "small even numbered group combat" was literally never a selling point.

What you want is a MOBA. A game with endless creative build customization, no startup time, and a tightly controlled set of equal circumstances and numbers.

That is quite literally the opposite of everything this game (and most sandbox pvp mmos) is designed to be.

Crowfall's design ethos was literally always about ensuring that every single player in every campaign is in some way involved in a massive server shifting army.

That's why faction campaigns exist. To create those armies out of people that don't have them as they enter the game. That's why Dregs exist. To create a political climate that puts the creation of those armies in the hands of the players.

Why on earth would you, a person that doesn't like "zerg combat" play a game that is literally built around zerg combat being more important than it has been in any mmo ever?

Why do people constantly talk about "no skill" and "zergs" in games that are literally designed to reward economic power, reward large scale efficiency and encourage zerging? More often than not the moment I hear someone start to complain about 'zergs' in this kind of game I tune out because they've lost the plot. The point of the game is not honorable combat between opposing forces. The point of the game is to create unfair combat to your advantage through a combination of overwhelming force, political maneuvering, misdirection, and quality of arms. The point of sandbox mmos is never to be more skilled at fair pvp, and it never has been. The point of sandbox mmos is to be smarter, be meaner, be more efficient, and be creative.

It's not play to bow and take 20 paces at dawn in petticoats. Its play to crush, by any means necessary, and the campaign system is designed to ensure that, once the final rewards system is in, no player has the option of ignoring the larger war.

It is literally the exact opposite, on purpose, of what you seem to want from it. I see this a ton and I simply don't get it. I'm not trying to insult you here but I need to ask you a few serious questions.

Why would you START playing crowfall in the first place when what you seem to want out of pvp is the polar opposite of the entire design of crowfall?

Why not play a game that's actually designed around this kind of PvP?

How do you find this game fun "for the most part" when everything you seem to want (gear that doesn't matter, PvP that is carefully cordoned off and ensures a fair fight) is antithetical to the basic principles (Economy=power, Clashing armies on a grand scale) of its core design?

Edited by PopeUrban

PopeSigGIF.gif

Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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11 minutes ago, PinkFluffyPanda said:

I want to expand its PvP to people who like skill based PvP, where individual skill matters, not numbers and gear. And I cant see why it has to be on the cost of what else is in the game

If you remove numbers and gear from Crowfall, there's not much left. Once everything else is stripped away, the arena junkies will start complaining that this class or that class is OP/gimped against that one. From there, either the devs will water everything down until every class is equally suited to every fight, or the arena junkies will leave and the 'game is dying' talk takes over and insures it happens.

Ranked arenas & battle matched battlegrounds are the beginning of the end. Been there, done that.

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11 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

 

1. Why do you keep playing games where a huge part of the design is improving gear?

2. Why did you buy in to a game where "small even numbered group combat" was literally never a selling point.

3. What you want is a MOBA. A game with endless creative build customization, no startup time, and a tightly controlled set of equal circumstances and numbers.

That is quite literally the opposite of everything this game (and most sandbox pvp mmos) is designed to be.

4. Crowfall's design ethos was literally always about ensuring that every single player in every campaign is in some way involved in a massive server shifting army.

That's why faction campaigns exist. To create those armies out of people that don't have them as they enter the game. That's why Dregs exist. To create a political climate that puts the creation of those armies in the hands of the players.

Why on earth would you, a person that doesn't like "zerg combat" play a game that is literally built around zerg combat being more important than it has been in any mmo ever?

5. Why do people constantly talk about "no skill" and "zergs" in games that are literally designed to reward economic power, reward large scale efficiency and encourage zerging? More often than not the moment I hear someone start to complain about 'zergs' in this kind of game I tune out because they've lost the plot. The point of the game is not honorable combat between opposing forces. The point of the game is to create unfair combat to your advantage through a combination of overwhelming force, political maneuvering, misdirection, and quality of arms. The point of sandbox mmos is never to be more skilled at fair pvp, and it never has been. The point of sandbox mmos is to be smarter, be meaner, be more efficient, and be creative.

6. It's not play to bow and take 20 paces at dawn in petticoats. Its play to crush, by any means necessary, and the campaign system is designed to ensure that, once the final rewards system is in, no player has the option of ignoring the larger war.

It is literally the exact opposite, on purpose, of what you seem to want from it. I see this a ton and I simply don't get it. I'm not trying to insult you here but I need to ask you a few serious questions.

7. Why would you START playing crowfall in the first place when what you seem to want out of pvp is the polar opposite of the entire design of crowfall?

8. Why not play a game that's actually designed around this kind of PvP?

9. How do you find this game fun "for the most part" when everything you seem to want (gear that doesn't matter, PvP that is carefully cordoned off and ensures a fair fight) is antithetical to the basic principles (Economy=power, Clashing armies on a grand scale) of its core design?

Okay that was a lot. Im gonna try answering it in sections using numbers:

1. I dont mind improving gear, once again I would just like there also was a place in the game where gear didnt matter and skill matters. 

2. I liked the look of it, and thought I would like the big scale fight, but it turned out that I didnt, I enjoy individual skill matters. Now i stay because i like the open world PvP in the game. 

3. I have also played around 2500hrs of MOBA's so you are not wrong. Again i like the open world PvP in the game though and that's why i stick to this mmo. 

4. Again honestly I  thought i would enjoy big scale fights

5. Im not saying zerg = no skill, it takes tactical skill. Not individual PvP skill though. Other than that i understand what the game is about, just cant see why it cant also have small scale available for players wanting that? I dont understand why one has to rule out the other? I might be missing something though? 

6. I would argue that small scale fights is nothing like you just wrote it out to be, but ill take your wording as a means to highlight you dont like fights where individual skill matters as much, and that's fine by me. 

7.  See answer 2

8. Atm i cant find any other new mmo with action combat, open world PvP and a class build that is anywhere near as good (IMO) as crowfall, and I dont want to play 10 year old mmo's

9. I think i come of more critical, in this topic, towards the game that I actually am. Because i do for the most part love the game, the open world PvP, the class builds etc, i find it fun running around in the world and fighting people you meet etc. I like the fighting over certain mobs etc. So there is a lot i like, i would just love for a place to test your PvP skill on an even playing field. Its not like i want to remove the sieges or anything, if people enjoy that laggish button mashing zerg fest let them have it, I honestly dont care, i was simply trying to suggest that there might be players that would enjoy a skill based pvp experience within the game?

Im enjoying the game, just trying to come with my suggestions as to what i think might improve it in some aspect. 

Hope my answers were those you seeked. 😊

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43 minutes ago, VaMei said:

If you remove numbers and gear from Crowfall, there's not much left. Once everything else is stripped away, the arena junkies will start complaining that this class or that class is OP/gimped against that one. From there, either the devs will water everything down until every class is equally suited to every fight, or the arena junkies will leave and the 'game is dying' talk takes over and insures it happens.

Ranked arenas & battle matched battlegrounds are the beginning of the end. Been there, done that.

For the last time i dont want to remove it, I want a place within the game where you can test your individual pvp, without any input from vessels, gear etc. 

Im not takling about removing it all together of course not, im talking about a place where people can go to of their own free will if they want to test out their own pvp skill on an even playing field, and still get a small amount of points for your guild/faction if winning 

 

If this game is mainly played by people who want sieges etc. and that's the factor in which the game will be adjusted towards, i cant see how a single arena, where a small group of the player base, can go and do their niche thing?

There dont be so many "arena junkies" since the game is not revolving around that, the game is a faction vs faction game firstly, but I fail to see how a niché gameplay within the game will suddenly make all the other players experience worse? If you dont want the arena fight simply dont? Just like if you dont want the sieges, simply dont.

This idea should only serve the purpose of giving something to the players who likes a skill based pvp experience from time to time, honestly cant see the harm in that?

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I guess when you don’t get it you don’t get it. 🤷🏾‍♂️

There’s other games on the horizon that match exactly what you want. I hope this game never becomes them. 

 

The only way way I would accept an open world arena is if it wasn’t a “safe zone” for all groups. Guards are fine, but I should be able to organize a raid party and wipe everyone out if we can. Including taking their loot. 

Would be a a fan of a dueling mechanic with a wager system tho. But that can be done in the current build just like your arena desire. The tools are there. 

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13 minutes ago, oneply said:

I guess when you don’t get it you don’t get it. 🤷🏾‍♂️

There’s other games on the horizon that match exactly what you want. I hope this game never becomes them. 

 

The only way way I would accept an open world arena is if it wasn’t a “safe zone” for all groups. Guards are fine, but I should be able to organize a raid party and wipe everyone out if we can. Including taking their loot. 

Would be a a fan of a dueling mechanic with a wager system tho. But that can be done in the current build just like your arena desire. The tools are there. 

Please do tell what those games are? Asking honestly 😊

That idea of yours also could be quite awesome, arena enemies have to join together in order to not get wiped, or the duelling mechanic with bets on it is also not a bad idea. 

Again my suggestion is ofc not flawless, that's not what im saying, something similiar to your ideas might also be a solution, or maybe somewhere in between? 🤷‍♂️

I understand its not the focus of the game, but down the line i hope i will see something in that direction of "skill based PvP", how the final result should be I dont know, but I have ideas regarding it. 

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6 hours ago, PinkFluffyPanda said:

Please do tell what those games are? Asking honestly 😊

 

Ashes of Creation is supposed to have Arena pvp but I believe it will be instanced. The system will play into the Node system and who is in charge of land/cities as it will have open world PVP and land control as well.

You might like Albion Online as well.

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11 hours ago, oneply said:

Battlegrounds/arenas destroyed mmos. Before those existed you didn’t see the masses gathered inside the cities waiting for the next queue to pop. People were out in the open world doing things. 

Im all for duels or an area in the open world you have to travel to in order to compete in an arena. But if you’re calling for battleground queues I give the biggest 👎🏻 I can possibly give. 

Edit: I don’t understand the obsession of several people in this forum to turn a sandbox mmo into every other boring repeative mmo that already exists. Seriously just go play those games that already have the junk that ruins a rpg. 

I don't understand why people would consider CF a sandbox, not that it means much anyway. Pretty much every system is dev guided. Lacking quests and content doesn't make a game a sandbox. CF more in common with a themepark then a survival game.

What MMOs (PVP especially) did battlegrounds/arenas destroy? There were only a handful of PVP MMOs prior to WoW which basically made arenas/BGs a thing. DAoC had BGs for example and they were quite fun. Now instances as a whole did take people away from open world content, but at the same time allowed games to go from thousands to millions and content became a decent amount more interesting. To now play something like BDO with such a content rich open world, it is unfortunate more games can't do the same.

I wouldn't want dueling arenas or instances battlegrounds in CF, but some sort of Hunger Dome option could be fun to play when the Campaign isn't the main focus for the moment (friend's not online, campaign ended, don't have a lot of time, etc). Not now, but could be nice later on.

10 hours ago, VaMei said:

As soon as an MMO includes arenas as a competitive feature, every class becomes very bland and generic with very few unique features.

What's Crowfall's excuse then?

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

I fail to understand why people keep showing up to sandbox mmos and ask for them to be turned in to street fighter.

Sandbox is an idea and has no one meaning. Some sell it under the "play how you want" concept. Apparently we don't all want to play the same way even though we might share common interests.

Why is killing dumb mobs for levels and grinding for better colored items have to be a thing in every MMO despite them saying they don't want to do that? Confusing stuff.

8 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

Why do you keep playing games where a huge part of the design is improving gear?

Why do people constantly talk about "no skill" and "zergs" in games that are literally designed to reward economic power, reward large scale efficiency and encourage zerging?

The point of the game is not honorable combat between opposing forces. The point of the game is to create unfair combat to your advantage through a combination of overwhelming force, political maneuvering, misdirection, and quality of arms. The point of sandbox mmos is never to be more skilled at fair pvp, and it never has been. The point of sandbox mmos is to be smarter, be meaner, be more efficient, and be creative.

I wouldn't say ACE's initial hype train made this out to be a Gear Crafting Simulator. Sure it should matter, but should obtaining gear be first in line? I do remember them saying "super shallow power curve," as well. Guess the carrot model is easier.

Skill comes in many flavors but actual in the moment skill should have value just as much as grinding on rocks for weeks.

While ACE has done little to nothing to decrease "zerg" combat, that doesn't mean there isn't room for other ways to play. Especially when so far they haven't managed to optimize for "zerg" lag. I've seen others claim that CF was and has been designed for smaller scale combat (what we have now and less). ~100 or less split X number of ways is putting the Zerg name to shame.

I fully agree that this game shouldn't be fair and don't see a place for elaborate dueling setups that impact the greater game. Take it to the EK or expect more from ACE on the smaller front design.

Still all the points you listed as to what CF is or should be aren't mutually exclusive to people wanting individual/smaller scale skill to matter. Simply aren't any systems in place that allow it to shine, which I believe will hurt CF if not changed. The model is too simplistic to have a lasting/growing community. Been playing Albion a bit and while it's not my ideal game (dislike click to move), it does manage to cram a lot of PVP options in that make them all have value. Be it individual, group, guild, alliance, etc. Gear has high value. Skill as much as it can be in such a game matters on the micro/macro. Just unfortunate that none of these games can pack it all in one.

Edited by APE

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Posted (edited)

We need pvp parcel/arena for EK, if you die inside, you don’t lose durability. Then we can run structured duels/gvgs ourselves or even tournaments or something unusual, e.g. pvp jumping puzzle, when you need to get to the other side but also fight people on the way :) With entry fees and winners rewards, or sponsored by guilds.

Game driven structured pvp, no matter 1v1 or 5vs5, will require special balancing just for those modes, separately from campaigns. It is a huge overhead. Doing balancing everywhere will fail, it is a hard learned lesson from gw2/eso/name other game that failed it.

Oh, and it is easy to implement.

Edited by ComradeAma

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10 hours ago, oneply said:

So you replaced Zerg with horde. Doesn’t clarify anything. We’ve had sieges with 1v0, 5v5, 5v20, 20v10, etc etc. Even with 200+ people playing. 

If you’re not participating then why do you have an opinion about them? There’s a whole lot more organization and strategy going on in those cluster custards then you might realize. 

homogenizing Crowfall to fall in line with every other face planted mmo doesn’t help it long run. 

A person doesn't have to participate to have an opinion.  A person can sit back, watch and develops and opinion.  I also don't believe their is much skill involved in these large group battles.  I have watched as well as participated in large to very large battles in many games well beyond CF and it always feels like a hamster running across the keyboard would have the same impact on the battle as me..

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3 hours ago, APE said:

Ashes of Creation is supposed to have Arena pvp but I believe it will be instanced. The system will play into the Node system and who is in charge of land/cities as it will have open world PVP and land control as well.

You might like Albion Online as well.

Thank you very much 😊

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3 hours ago, APE said:

I wouldn't want dueling arenas or instances battlegrounds in CF, but some sort of Hunger Dome option could be fun to play when the Campaign isn't the main focus for the moment (friend's not online, campaign ended, don't have a lot of time, etc). Not now, but could be nice later on.

What's Crowfall's excuse then?

Excatly my point, thank you 👍

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