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Tiberius_Invictus

Why all the barriers to participation in the economy?

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I love that the crafting system is designed to require exchange of goods between players who have specialties at different things, and promote a vibrant economy.  What I don't understand is if a vibrant economy is the goal, why make it so %$&* difficult to actually exchange goods?

So to sell something you have to build all the support infrastructure in your EK, pay for a dozen different vendors because each will only sell certain things, then watch the vendor salary get wasted because nobody's ever heard of you and they're not going to visit the EK of some scrub, and because your EK isn't even available when you're not around.  Even the most renowned trading EK's aren't getting much visitation

Likewise, buying stuff is almost as difficult as selling; you have to leave the campaign, travel to different EKs, walk around to different vendors and pull up all 3 of the wares they're selling one at a time, then when you don't find what you're looking for go all the way back to the beach head in the campaign again.

I don't understand this at all.  Do you want a vibrant economy or not?  Your crafting system seems to indicate yes, but your merchant system seems to indicate hell no.

Maybe put a single trader in each faction's temple where any player can put up to 10 items for sale, and any player can buy from that vendor.  If you get more than 10 items that you want to sell, then use the EK system.  Just a thought.

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They've already discussed that in the future  EKs will be running for longer. Could just use faction chat for WTS xyz item. Or you know buy a vendor in one of the more known EKs to peddle your wares.


Before I die, I shall stand upon your grave and smile.

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    This truly is a product of you being in a "testing environment" right now they need to get all the mechanics in and keep the systems working. As an example they just finished the mechanics on the villa and manors, being viable crafting/merchant buildings.

   Also at this state of the game how much emphasis are they going to put into not only EK's but balancing the economy, not a whole lot to be honest, stuff like that will come in alpha and beta

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13 minutes ago, salzus said:

Or you know buy a vendor in one of the more known EKs to peddle your wares.

So my lone vendor standing in a mass of 500 other vendors is going to get enough customers to make up for the upkeep?  I don't think so.  I also don't want faction chat spammed with a million WTB/WTS offers.

I just want to sell some chaos embers to make some quick gold! It shouldn't be this complicated.

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Tiberius_Invictus said:

So my lone vendor standing in a mass of 500 other vendors is going to get enough customers to make up for the upkeep?  I don't think so.  I also don't want faction chat spammed with a million WTB/WTS offers.

I just want to sell some chaos embers to make some quick gold! It shouldn't be this complicated.

   Make a vendor and place in the free city, or the temple... I was making about 4k a day selling white gear last campaign. the maintenance is only 240 gold per day. 6 r9 zombies or 5 minutes at a war tribe should cover that easy 

 

Edited by seastodd

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You're assuming there are 500 vendors to begin with. In which case why would I leave an EK that has 500 vendors to go else where? Sounds like a business man complaining about not getting enough business. 

 

It is pre-alpha after all. What do you suggest as a solution? An auction house?


Before I die, I shall stand upon your grave and smile.

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4 minutes ago, seastodd said:

Also at this state of the game how much emphasis are they going to put into not only EK's but balancing the economy, not a whole lot to be honest, stuff like that will come in alpha and beta

 

Understood, but since those things currently are not being used, there should be a convenient alternative (for example a single exchange in the faction temple) so the free market can determine what appropriate prices are for various items.

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3 minutes ago, salzus said:

Sounds like a business man complaining about not getting enough business. 

Well that's kind of the point.  In a game whose crafting system relies so much on exchange of goods, it shouldn't be so difficult to exchange goods.

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30 minutes ago, Tiberius_Invictus said:

I love that the crafting system is designed to require exchange of goods between players who have specialties at different things, and promote a vibrant economy.  What I don't understand is if a vibrant economy is the goal, why make it so %$&* difficult to actually exchange goods?

So to sell something you have to build all the support infrastructure in your EK, pay for a dozen different vendors because each will only sell certain things, then watch the vendor salary get wasted because nobody's ever heard of you and they're not going to visit the EK of some scrub, and because your EK isn't even available when you're not around.  Even the most renowned trading EK's aren't getting much visitation

Likewise, buying stuff is almost as difficult as selling; you have to leave the campaign, travel to different EKs, walk around to different vendors and pull up all 3 of the wares they're selling one at a time, then when you don't find what you're looking for go all the way back to the beach head in the campaign again.

I don't understand this at all.  Do you want a vibrant economy or not?  Your crafting system seems to indicate yes, but your merchant system seems to indicate hell no.

Maybe put a single trader in each faction's temple where any player can put up to 10 items for sale, and any player can buy from that vendor.  If you get more than 10 items that you want to sell, then use the EK system.  Just a thought.

There are slots in each temple where players can place vendors. There are many more slots in the free city for player vendors. You don't need to go to EKs to shop.

And no, each vendor isn't limited to selling only certain things. You can place whatever you want on any vendor. 

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Tiberius_Invictus said:

Understood, but since those things currently are not being used, there should be a convenient alternative (for example a single exchange in the faction temple) so the free market can determine what appropriate prices are for various items.

um no, not in my opinion, the economy was working fine last campaign, multiple vendors were stocked, I bought embers, discs, tools, even estoric runestones at this point of the game its working fine you just need to be able to figure out how to work with it, just my opinion though

   sounds like you are trying to lean towards an "Auction House" which will never happen, it goes against everything they are trying to do in this game which is force us to group for said resources and gear. An auction house would kill that whole idea in 24 hours

  In fact I think the whole reason they are hesitant to roll out a "Guild Bank" is all the resources are there in the eks for that, the EK could easilly be a central place for the guild to exchange their wares, leather padding, rivets, book chapters, the whole shabang that is currently being traded between players.. in my eyes that is what the EK is there for as much as anything. Another EK could be a guilds Merchant EK open to the public, and yet another could be a guild sparring EK pvp enabled with fortifications built in it... I think that is what they envisioned.

Edited by seastodd

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38 minutes ago, seastodd said:

 sounds like you are trying to lean towards an "Auction House"

No, no auction houses. No bidding or tuners or anything. Just a central trade spot in the faction temple where players can post a few items at a time without all the hassle, just to jump-start the economy.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Tiberius_Invictus said:

No, no auction houses. No bidding or tuners or anything. Just a central trade spot in the faction temple where players can post a few items at a time without all the hassle, just to jump-start the economy.

No need to jump start the test economy. 

The marketing tools for EK's is probably on the bottom of the list for ACE, simply because some have proven with the tools available players can make a vibrant EK trade center. (Current gold drought notwithstanding). The Winter Blades made over 5 million in gold with a EK trade center back in 5.6 I believe.

If you want to make an economic empire, put in the work to make one. Don't expect ACE to hand it to you, because they can't. No matter the systems they provide, you are going to run into the pareto principle of economic distribution. No matter the tools given, you will be in competition with other players and guilds that have, and compete to use better than you, the exact same tools.

ACE can't hand you a successful business, you have to build one.

Oh, and last campaign there were open stalls in the main Chaos temple, not sure about the others.  I did quite a good business making and selling tools.  There is no restriction on vendors to types of goods.  You can load up a vendor with any amount and type of product you want.

Do I hope ACE eventually builds better tools, sure.  But it's not really a top priority item right now.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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13 minutes ago, Tiberius_Invictus said:

No, no auction houses. No bidding or tuners or anything. Just a central trade spot in the faction temple where players can post a few items at a time without all the hassle, just to jump-start the economy.

You can already do that. All you need is a vendor, which is easy to make.

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Posted (edited)

1. As Arkade mentioned, you can add vendors to the faction temples and free cities in both God's Reach and campaign worlds, so no EK necessary. With the new AFK timers shutting down EKs, player malls are in a bad place. Previously, there were player run malls that would allow independent players to add their own vendors; most recently, Srathor's Lawn and Aerynth Traders were the big names.

2. When gold was made scarce, vendor maintenance rates were not adjusted. We've made that point, hopefully it stays on ACE's radar for a future balance pass.

3. We've repeatedly requested the ability for owners of vendors to be able to place buy orders for basic resources, allowing indy players to sell their harvested goods to player vendors. There's some significant development that needs to happen before we can get that functionality, and it's not a priority item for this phase of development, but they know we want it.

Edited by VaMei

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There are indeed places to put up vendors be it the faction temple or free city or EK.  I believe I saw a skill to train to reduce the cost of having a vendor up to though I could be mistaken on that account.  I am confident all this will get fleshed out in the final product.  Don't forget this is the testing and development phase of game development.  I have every intention when this game goes though final wipe to build up quite the market EK where I will sell to Anybody who wants to buy from me.  Sell to all sides and sit back, count my gold, and watch them duke it out and laugh.  lol :)   Seriously though, I am sure the large guilds and others will be able to supply themselves but there will always be the new players who are just starting and haven't trained things up and don't want to become another cog in one of the big guilds or smaller groups who needs supplies.  should be fun :)  can't wait for the game to get done :)  

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Yeah, EK markets were a thing in prior builds. I ran a very successful one for a while. Now that we can place vendors in campaigns and with the AFK timer, the EK markets have fallen by the wayside. They haven't forgotten about them, though. They just aren't a priority right now.

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When gold was made scarce, vendor maintenance rates were not adjusted. We've made that point, hopefully it stays on ACE's radar for a future balance pass...

Not to mention the listing fees... if I wanted to use my EK to say let my guilds blacksmith come in grab some ore off a vendor, and crank out gear without me having to trade him everything, or even be there hopefully...  the 47 gold per stack listing fee would get steep in a hurry

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14 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

If you want to make an economic empire, put in the work to make one.

I don't want an economic empire; I just want to be able to sell some chaos embers without jumping through a dozen hoops.  I don't think that's too much to ask.

 

8 minutes ago, VaMei said:

1. With the new AFK timers shutting down EKs, player malls are in a bad place.

2. When gold was made scarce, vendor maintenance rates were not adjusted. We've made that point, hopefully it stays on ACE's radar for a future balance pass.

3. We've repeatedly requested the ability for owners of vendors to be able to place buy orders for basic resources, allowing indy players to sell their harvested goods to player vendors.

Thanks VaMei, that's reassuring.

Also, I didn't realize they changed the scarcity of gold.  Has there been an inventory wipe since then, or are people still able to use gold they amassed from when it was abundant?

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3 minutes ago, Tiberius_Invictus said:

I don't want an economic empire; I just want to be able to sell some chaos embers without jumping through a dozen hoops.  I don't think that's too much to ask.

 

Thanks VaMei, that's reassuring.

Also, I didn't realize they changed the scarcity of gold.  Has there been an inventory wipe since then, or are people still able to use gold they amassed from when it was abundant?

Everything was wiped for 5.8, at the same time they seriously reduced the amount of gold we were able to get. Previously, we could kill boars outside the temple and get 20-60 gold from each. Now gold only comes from humanoid mobs, and at reduced rates, though the war tribes seem to be a little better in 5.9.

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Posted (edited)

I think a big issue here is that there's no way to set up automated purchase orders.  I'd like to see the option for vendor owners to indicate that they want to purchase n amount of resources @ x amount of gold.  Then, players can visit that vendor and deposit these resources and receive gold deducted from the vendor until either n resources are acquired or there's no longer enough gold in reserve to pay out.  This would give entry level characters an opportunity to earn an income before they're able to gear up and grind mobs in the adventure zone, and does so in a way that avoids more magic gold flowing in to campaigns.  It's actually a gold sink, when you factor in taxes.

Also, having a maintenance cost for vendors is important to avoid abuses.  There has to be some risk involved in being a merchants so as to weed out players who aren't serious about the profession.  This gives players more confidence that a vendor will have something of value when clicking on it.  Otherwise, if you have a bunch of vendors set up but they're not routinely stocked by their owners, it reduces players' confidence in all vendors and they'll be less inclined to go shopping.  Pasting the name of the shop or its owner over a vendor's head would also help players identify what vendors they want to peruse.

Another problem with a low bar for entry is that it increases the potential for nefarious, wealthy guilds to claim all of the best vendor plots and sit on them to block competition.  This is not a problem now, but it might become one as the population develops while plots remain finite.  One way to possibly address this would be to auction vendor plots at the start of a campaign, at least for the safe zones.  This would establish a kind of real estate market to ensure that the cost of entry scales with demand.  It would also negate the first-come-first-claim pressure for merchants to log on immediately as a campaign starts and race to their preferred plot before anybody else can claim it.

Edited by Bashar

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