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Allinavi

Why do harvesters expect it to rain purples?

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Posted (edited)

OH, BECAUSE IT'S END-GAME AND WE'RE MAX TRAINED MAYBE?!!! STOP NERFING DROPS TO OBLIVION, REMEMBER THAT WE'RE TRAINED!!!!!! 

There are 4 seperate passive talents that either aren't working or this is a micro-priorty focus on all the posting about drops, without the thought that most people are fully trained...

2ish4pg.jpg  29vi78o.jpg

 

*This isn't posted in bugs because every mention of it, brings out the nerf bat.

Edited by Allinavi

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Likely the devs were surprised by how quickly people got to end-game gear.  But here's the thing:

The current testing group is not representative of the general gaming population.  

People who invest in kickstarters for MMOs to get pre-alpha access will generally tend to be the most hard-core, dozen-hour-per-day players.

It should be no surprise then that they accumulate end-game gear in a few months, because they play in a few months more than a casual player plays in a year.

Therefore, I don't think it's appropriate to nerf harvesting rates based on perceived progression speed of the most hard-core gamers on the planet.

Additionally, this is what durability is for; easy come, easy go. Let people have their purple mats so they aren't afraid to equip purple gear. 

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6 minutes ago, Tiberius_Invictus said:

Likely the devs were surprised by how quickly people got to end-game gear.  But here's the thing:

The current testing group is not representative of the general gaming population.  

People who invest in kickstarters for MMOs to get pre-alpha access will generally tend to be the most hard-core, dozen-hour-per-day players.

It should be no surprise then that they accumulate end-game gear in a few months, because they play in a few months more than a casual player plays in a year.

Therefore, I don't think it's appropriate to nerf harvesting rates based on perceived progression speed of the most hard-core gamers on the planet.

Additionally, this is what durability is for; easy come, easy go. Let people have their purple mats so they aren't afraid to equip purple gear. 

Couple of things here.  I don't think that alpha players are "hardcore 12 hour a day players" in fact, NONE of my guild is that way.  If you had to categorize or generalize this population it would be "people who played shadowbane" and "people who played shadowbane and then recruited other people" and the smallest portion "people who found the game on their own".

 

I would not expect the demegraphic for this game to change much, so I would not expect the play characteristics, which is largely determined by someones demographic, to change much either.  What I would see happening is larger, more organized hardcore guilds and gaming communities trying out this game... so it might in fact, be the opposite of what you say.

 

The reason that we are progressing to "end game" as fast as we are is that we've maxed out all passive skill training in all fields and that has given us access to the highest level of materials and gear.  It would be slower in a "release" game since the rate at which you gain skills is going to be slower.

 

It's possible they are just testing the 'knobs' that control the drop rates, but ACEs dereliction in the area of change notes is the highest I've experienced in any pre-beta setting and it creates a negative experience whenever access to portions of the game are reduced.  The reduction doesnt necessarily cause the negative experience, but the exposure to the reduction and the fact that we don't know if it was on purpose or is some bug - because again, change notes.

We're here to test, and testing is great, but testing is a partnership.  Information and progress are what they should be giving to the testers.  In turn, we provide play testing and feedback.   If we are not given information, we're testing from a position of ignorance and that diminishes our effectiveness, and in turn, their productivity and progress.

But the fact that >10 people were ever on the test server at one time, even after being asked to test 5.90, shows you that tester/development relationship is also built on the ability to play, have fun and be competitive.  If they do not maintain those, they will not have testers.

Want further proof of this?  Well lets look at this latest horrid release of 5.90 on live:

unknown.png

Middle of the day on a Saturday and only 35 people online...  I can snip it again at siege time if you're not convinced.

 

TL;DR: You want the game tested?  We need a stable environment to play and the opportunity for competitive play and reasonable access to gearing/advancement.

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3 hours ago, Ble said:

We're here to test, and testing is great, but testing is a partnership.  Information and progress are what they should be giving to the testers.  In turn, we provide play testing and feedback.   If we are not given information, we're testing from a position of ignorance and that diminishes our effectiveness, and in turn, their productivity and progress.

But the fact that >10 people were ever on the test server at one time, even after being asked to test 5.90, shows you that tester/development relationship is also built on the ability to play, have fun and be competitive.  If they do not maintain those, they will not have testers.

Want further proof of this?  Well lets look at this latest horrid release of 5.90 on live:

unknown.png

Middle of the day on a Saturday and only 35 people online...  I can snip it again at siege time if you're not convinced.

 

TL;DR: You want the game tested?  We need a stable environment to play and the opportunity for competitive play and reasonable access to gearing/advancement.

What did they think would happen to a 3 day campaign on live, just to test the same stuff that should be tested on the testservers the whole month?

Who on earth is intrested in moves like that, completely useless! My whole guild tested on the testservers but when 5.9 arrived way to early on live and that 3 day campaign came along, they were fed up and went to play/do something else.

If they really want to run live AND test servers before release they need a better strategy.

  • Put in the patchnotes what you actually patch and not only the "intresting" stuff, like Ble said, it's a partnership and we need the info
  • Shutting down live/test servers and leaving them off without any further notice should not happen EVER
  • Streamline releases and stick to it, patch LIVE only for small hotfixes and make release cycles from test to live 1-3 month
  • Put test on a 1 week release cycle and get the live crowd to actually test the new builds, without a living LIVE crowd you have no userbase for testservers

There will never be more users for testing if the liveservers are a playground for bugfixing, follow some commong release cycle rules and more people will acutally test on testservers while they can at the same time enjoy a working build on live.


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Max skill training for harvesting means you will get the highest possible drop rate. If the loot tables are set up with the highest possible drop rate for purples at 1% (or whatever it is, IDK), that's all you will get at max training.

Sounds like your issue is with drop rates, not training.


tiPrpwh.png

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15 hours ago, miraluna said:

Sounds like your issue is with drop rates, not training.

...Training that effects drop rates. More ore, at higher quality, look at the talents I linked.

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Posted (edited)

My understanding is that a stat like "Critical Chance: Ore  = 10%"  is a 10% increase over what an untrained player has (NOT a flat 10% increase). So it's 10% more of whatever the loot table says.

Edited by miraluna

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Posted (edited)
On 5/18/2019 at 5:11 PM, gerrylix said:

What did they think would happen to a 3 day campaign on live, just to test the same stuff that should be tested on the testservers the whole month?

Who on earth is intrested in moves like that, completely useless! My whole guild tested on the testservers but when 5.9 arrived way to early on live and that 3 day campaign came along, they were fed up and went to play/do something else.

If they really want to run live AND test servers before release they need a better strategy.

  • Put in the patchnotes what you actually patch and not only the "intresting" stuff, like Ble said, it's a partnership and we need the info
  • Shutting down live/test servers and leaving them off without any further notice should not happen EVER
  • Streamline releases and stick to it, patch LIVE only for small hotfixes and make release cycles from test to live 1-3 month
  • Put test on a 1 week release cycle and get the live crowd to actually test the new builds, without a living LIVE crowd you have no userbase for testservers

There will never be more users for testing if the liveservers are a playground for bugfixing, follow some commong release cycle rules and more people will acutally test on testservers while they can at the same time enjoy a working build on live.

   I really agree with this as the best course of action, they should at this point be able to keep both test and live up at the same time with two different builds, the older more stable one on live. I also think they will constantly get an influx of players onto test as they patch new builds, simply for players to check out and see what is changed over time.

   It seemed in their last trial of test only, even with the mug they were not getting the numbers they wanted, but alot of the problem for me as the post above mentions I never knew when test was up. I know that in the period 5.90 hit gods reach before the campaign went live, I still tried to log onto test multiple times to try and help, only to see that it was down for maintenance..  did you want us to test or not I was thinking.

  I also think the drop rates are fairly silly atm, I am capped in iron, silver and human graves, It seemed like I was not only getting a whole lot of blues off rank 10's but what 1 gold per 100 purple.. the grave drop was really kind of sad I think I have about 100 purple arms and legs 50 heads and torsos and 2 gold heads and a leg and this is with a full human tree I was always digging with 5 pips and bene harvest food.  I was also hitting quite a few r7 ore and stone for green resources and It seemed like I was almost getting as many purples and I got a few golds off of them.. I did not run across any r8 or r9 nodes in mass so could it be that just the r10's are broke? I have no idea... again all issues other people are having.

Edited by seastodd

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Posted (edited)

Here were the tables Blair posted ages ago for the drop rates, and how they work.

 

That 10% I believe is on the chance the table gets a roll, and not on the volume to expected after the roll, which is critical amount. # of times the critical table is rolled when a critical hit is made.

If you look at those R9 tables, there is only a 15% chance of green on a R9 Crit, but the sample data I have seen where green represents 60% of the yield, seems to indicate that the majority of material is from the non-critical hit table.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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Here is an old picture of the Rank 9 treasure Table for ore. From Blair. If it is still current I do not know for sure but it still feels relevant.
unknown.png

If you get a crit you get a roll on the last bottom table.  Then you get more rolls per whole number critical amount you have. (I have 5 with gear and skills) so if I get a crit then I get 6 rolls on the bottom table when the node is destroyed.

The nerf to the broken bene harvest gear impacts the amount of crits you are getting nowadays. Also the nerf to Beneficial Harvest Power is massive as well.

My guess is you are not seeing much in the way of drops is due to not understanding the weight and importance of the bene harvest procs. It is the single most important stat and it was GUTTED recently with the fix to gear. Followed up by the crit amount stat. But having 5 in that means nothing if you don't crit. 

For ore run Miner and Lookout. Get bene harvest gear, use a bene harvest tool. Weigh everything towards getting and keeping the proc up.

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They really need to take a good hard look at Startgame, earlygame, midgame, lategame, and endgame numbers, for gathering and crafting. Startgame first month, early game 1 month + to 3 month, Midgame 3 month to 9 months Endgame 9 to 12-18 months. 

If people are not feeling progression and more importantly having fun, they will not last past the first month. You have to get that first months resubscribes. And it has to be a strong finish for the first months time. Look at the passive skill training at a x1 towards gathering and you see small progression and very little fun. 

They need to take a good hard look at the whole gathering aspect of the game and tweak it and polish it until is shines and people WANT to go out and harvest. It is the riskiest part of the game, with the most investment of time and the whole game is balanced around people out in the world harvesting. 

They have to nail it, and it is getting lip service. 
 

Weak points need to affect yield with both crit chance and crit amount and even bene harvest chance, power,and duration, Gathering Q's need to buff the group you are in. The trigger for the gathering stats on breaks needs multiple buckets to enhance group gathering. We need to have groups wanting to form up for gathering so that they have a defense for the wolves, and keeping people engaged and in the world. 

The current bug where everyone in the group gets their own loot drops needs to continue and increase and be made not a bug, but instead a feature. We want folks grouping and having fun. 

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, srathor said:


The nerf to the broken bene harvest gear impacts the amount of crits you are getting nowadays. Also the nerf to Beneficial Harvest Power is massive as well.

My guess is you are not seeing much in the way of drops is due to not understanding the weight and importance of the bene harvest procs. It is the single most important stat and it was GUTTED recently with the fix to gear. Followed up by the crit amount stat. But having 5 in that means nothing if you don't crit. 

For ore run Miner and Lookout. Get bene harvest gear, use a bene harvest tool. Weigh everything towards getting and keeping the proc up.

Sorry, but its not bene. Navi/Ble harvest TONS and have harvested with bene, without bene, and now with this new patch.

This new patch has MASSIVELY reduced drops for rank 9+. Much harder to get Purple and replaced with more Green drops.

Effective making harvester training seem less and less important.

They could've flattened stats but instead they nerfed harvesting.

Of course, this didn't make it into patch notes because they apparently don't like telling us stuff.

Assume it was an intentional change, but without the patch note have no clue.

Edited by Ussiah

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, srathor said:

My guess is you are not seeing much in the way of drops is due to not understanding the weight and importance of the bene harvest procs. It is the single most important stat and it was GUTTED recently with the fix to gear. Followed up by the crit amount stat. But having 5 in that means nothing if you don't crit

Well, this isn't the case. This seems much more like a direct response to recent grievences being posted about harvesting. The fluctuation from literally one week to the next has been STAGGERING. This isn't something you need a table for that is, quite honestly, not anywhere near relevant anymore. Not relevant since 5.8 even. The amount of gutting they have done literally feels like ALL PASSIVE TRAINING is off. Hence the reason I posted pics of stats show how BOTH Crit Chance/Amount AND Quality Amounts were increased. This has nothing to do with how bene works (been w/o bene for 80% of my harvesting since last overhaul)... it's about nodes dropping less in general and lower quality.

Dust off that account and hop in, you will see this as well.

Edited by Allinavi

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On 5/20/2019 at 5:59 PM, Allinavi said:

Dust off that account and hop in, you will see this as well.

Savage... but true.  

Maximizing harvesting is now weighted more heavily in areas other than ben harvest procs.  

 

What I would really like to hear is feedback from @thomasblair and company on their intents.  I need to know if they truly understand their harvesting math, are managing by spreadsheet or that this is all intentional and by design for reasons a b and c.  I’m not sure how to structure my feedback to them without this understanding.  Again, as I’ve mentioned quite a few times, testing inhibited by the lack of communication of information and direction.

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Posted (edited)

Yea, your gear is still bene... that's hurting your results, no one keeps it up anymore, as the difference is dismal anyway (juice not worth the squeeze). I linked passive talents specifically because they don't appear to be working. 

 

I get a lot of input is coming from players that have had years in the community, but anything crafting pre-5.9 as of right now... is irrelevant to the conversation. And building the way you always have shows you haven't theorycrafted, or play tested other inputs to try to maximize yeilds.

This is why we're angry, we have worked through the changes, adapted, and still found a way to hit consistencies in 5.8 to previous yeilds. But 5.9 is a wrench that broke the machine. And it's been ignored in bug reports, or taken the wrong way by a touchy dev.

Edited by Allinavi

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@AllinaviCan you screen shot your Mining gear then please? I would like to see what I am comparing against that is so much better than my choices. 

Also the issue is that the power stat is working just fine. It is just off by 2 decimal points. 

This is my fully trained Ore Specialization tree Stat version
unknown.png

One is slightly smaller than the other. Perhaps due to a cold shower of a patch earlier this month. That affects the crit chance given by the bene harvest proc. It also by chance has an effect upon the stamina gift that is given during said proc. 

Now the crit chance is not nearly as boosted as before when it pegged at all times at 75% But now it is at the starting amount of 12.5% + the .24 (3) boost from all that training. 

My stats before bene harvest proc. 
unknown.png

My stats after. 
unknown.png?width=811&height=189

This is of course nekkid. With no lookout disc as well. And only level 16 on my vessel. (Blue btw) I am trying int to see if I can natively get to 5 Crit amount again. 

With Gear on. And a Bene harvest proc up.  My crit is a bit better

unknown.png

And this is with it bugged badly and 2 decimal points off.

Crit gear and Dex specced is a viable choice. 

But please do not think I have not done my homework. 

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