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Tiberius_Invictus

How do you intend to pick up new players after launch?

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As a latecomer, the only thing keeping me from bailing on the game is knowing that there will be a skill reset for everyone sooner or later, putting us on equal footing again.

I can't figure out how anyone joining the game after launch could feel like they'll ever be competitive.

I know there has been talk of "catch-up" mechanics, but no talk of what that would look like.  Some activity or achievement you can accomplish in-game to gain skill faster?  If such a thing can exist, I feel like that should be the default way to gain skill over the nothing-you-can-do-about-it-watch-the-paint-dry current system.

Also, the current system just makes the game pay-to-win for people who  buy multiple accounts.  Working as intended, perhaps?

 

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For skill training, the initial idea for a catch-up mechanic was "Tomes" that would work something like Skill Injectors do in EVE. Veteran players could use excess training points to fill up a Tome, that could be traded and then used by a new player.

Quote

When/if we add tomes after launch (and I suspect that we will, because we do need a catch-up mechanic for late arrivals) we'll put a gate in place to keep people from abusing it.  My current plan is to add a global max # of minutes since launch that players can't exceed; in effect, a new player won't be able to use Tomes to gain more total minutes than a standard VIP player who started on launch day. 

Todd

ACE

This idea was discussed before we even had talent trees and active leveling, so it certainly could change. The catch-up mechanic won't be added until post-launch, and would obviously need to be designed around the game systems as they function at that future point.


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Posted (edited)

I don't mind the tome idea and I didn't mind the skill injectors in eve but I reject the notion that we need a catch up mechanic.  Eve operated for many years successfully without the injectors or any catch up mechanic.  When they were implemented they became more a tool for veteran players to redistribute points to other toon to really streamline them than a thing for new players specially since they cost so darn much.  They were a good way to bring in revenue for eve via plex sales so humm,  pay to win maybe???  

Edited by Drizzzt

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Posted (edited)

Problem is that the current ratio for skill progression is 3 fold and if you ask me the speed should not go down to 1 but to 0.5 on release.

Besides that the profession trees should be like 3 times it's actual size.

If you want to compare EVE injectors with crowfall you also have to compare the complex learning of EVE to the not yet complex learning of crowfall.

Maybe only older EVE players know that you could even Learn learning skills in the beginning and removing the race professions was a big mistake.

Dual learning also doesn't help at all. 

I suggest 1 profession at a time, add race specific professions again, add more depth to the existing professions and pronto you got a working system were it takes ages to create a powergap that OP is worried about.

Edited by gerrylix

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Posted (edited)

I remember those skills.  You make some valid points and I agree the training progression could be longer.  This issue with limiting professions to train 1 at a time even though it would bring it more in line with eve ( one skill train at time) is it would simply cause people to buy more alts ( like eve) in order to do all they want to do.  I guess its debatable if that's a bad thing.  It would bring in more revenue for the crowfall team. :)   

Edited by Drizzzt

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9 hours ago, Tiberius_Invictus said:

As a latecomer, the only thing keeping me from bailing on the game is knowing that there will be a skill reset for everyone sooner or later, putting us on equal footing again.

I can't figure out how anyone joining the game after launch could feel like they'll ever be competitive.

I know there has been talk of "catch-up" mechanics, but no talk of what that would look like.  Some activity or achievement you can accomplish in-game to gain skill faster?  If such a thing can exist, I feel like that should be the default way to gain skill over the nothing-you-can-do-about-it-watch-the-paint-dry current system.

Also, the current system just makes the game pay-to-win for people who  buy multiple accounts.  Working as intended, perhaps?

 

There has been people still joining EVE 15 years after launch.  People will be drawn to it.

Besides, Launch is some time off

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On 5/20/2019 at 6:45 PM, Tiberius_Invictus said:

As a latecomer, the only thing keeping me from bailing on the game is knowing that there will be a skill reset for everyone sooner or later, putting us on equal footing again.

I can't figure out how anyone joining the game after launch could feel like they'll ever be competitive.

In terms of combat passives, as someone who's very much against too much gap in power based on anything but the skill/strategy of the players involved, I feel like they are right about where they need to be. Most people who will be in on day one feel they are too weak and that's a great indicator that they are done perfectly. If vets are sour they won't get too much power handed to them just for playing longer you're probably doing things right in terms of building a game that can actually attract new players.

Crafting/Gathering is another story. But I hear after 5.9 everyone is sour about purple+ drop rates so they are probably moving the right direction there too.

Just adjust it until about 90% of the vets are whining that passives are useless but most of them stick around because they know darn well they have an advantage that should easily keep them on top if they are actually better players, and you've likely hit the sweet spot.


"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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On 5/21/2019 at 2:18 AM, gerrylix said:

Dual learning also doesn't help at all. 

The thing with dual learning is that it makes single accounting viable.

A character with combat + gathering is a fully competent player. They can fight at sieges/fort fights, they can also gather for their guild during downtime between large fights. If they are hooked into a good guild they don't need crafting alts to be a big contributor to their group.

The only players who can get by with full combat will be dedicated gankers / wartribe farmers. But if nearly everyone with a single account is full specced combat then there will be much greater supply of players looking to play those roles than there is demand for those roles.

And that's my counter to "Multi-accounting = Pay to Win". Multi-accounting = Pay to work your butt off for the guild and spend your every waking moment making gear on various characters in addition to having a combat/gathering main. It's not for the casual player even if those accounts were free. Single accounting = Do your chosen combat/gathering role very well as you have time to focus on your single character with only 2 roles.

If we think dual learning makes things too fast for a .5 progression rate as you suggested (and I tend to agree with unless they really expand the skill tree pre-launch) then go .25 progression. But keep the dual tracks in there.


"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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3 minutes ago, Andius said:

The thing with dual learning is that it makes single accounting viable.

I don't know were the current road will lead us but if you throw in some skills into combat trees that make farming NPC's more viable then a full combat character could be a viable asset too. I do have my crafting vessels and i tend to agree that 0.25 would be a better option to 1 skilltree, if it helps lessen the power gap.

 


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Posted (edited)

Longer progression will actually make it harder for a new player to get in and be viable in terms of power gap. Going by the EVE example. It's very possible for a new player to nearly master a single style of play in a very short amount of time, and fully master it given a moderate time investment. The thing is variety. What a moderately experienced player can have is total mastery of their role while the veteran has total mastery of multiple roles.

So a really complex skill tree that you can rush to the end very quickly is a major benefit to the incoming player.

The thing that .25 progression with 2 trees would benefit is it means:

A. Single accounters do not need to make a choice between combat skills and gathering skills making them more viable vs. multi-account players.
B. There will be a longer period of time between game launch and the point that, if they haven't added new skills, you will have veterans who will have literally maxed every single skill in the game.

It hasn't even been half a year since the last skill wipe (I think) and we have people posting screenshots of their entirely maxed out upper tier trees such as mining. Heck, my fiance's account is nearly maxed efficiency in Runecrafting and she joined during the trial of Valkyn. For me that raises some serious concerns that day 1 players will have way too many trees maxed at year 2 or 3 even with a XP or .5. So that's why I'd support a .25.

Probably the ideal solution in my mind though would be 1x with 2 trees and far more paths to train down. Make the chests found in the world have locks that need to be picked. Add fishing with when we get water. Flesh out construction more and add agriculture. Create more weapon options for each class and have trees in combat dedicated to each weapon + shields etc. Remove leadership from gathering and make it it's own path.

If they can do things like that with great enough frequency post-launch then then 1x w/2 trees should be fine.



 

Edited by Andius

"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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If you really want to force people to specialize, just give people a set amount of skill points to allocate at the beginning of each campaign, then wipe the skills at the end.

That way any new-comer can be just as useful, and the advantage for long-time players will be the gear & mats they've accumulated & exported from specializing in different things in previous campaigns.

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Tiberius_Invictus said:

If you really want to force people to specialize, just give people a set amount of skill points to allocate at the beginning of each campaign, then wipe the skills at the end.

That way any new-comer can be just as useful, and the advantage for long-time players will be the gear & mats they've accumulated & exported from specializing in different things in previous campaigns.

Honestly that sounds great to have a style of no importation campaigns that has a total passive reset. I think a lot of people would be 100% down for that. You'd probably want to just have those campaigns work off a different passive skillpool than the general account so you're not losing passive training for other campaigns by participating in them. I made a similar suggestion during the Kickstarter days and people threw a fit about it but like I told them back then, they have no obligation to take part in such campaigns.

Edited by Andius

"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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Posted (edited)

  In no way should one brand new to the game be on equal footing with someone who has been playing it for months.... I mean if I want equal footing I will just go play Overwatch.... any game like this of course is going to have more developed players, to just think they are going to change it so the new guy can be just as good as the guy who has been playing  for a year is just silly and well rather poor game design for an ongoing mmorpg like this one

Edited by seastodd

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Posted (edited)

I think you would turn away a huge portion of the playerbase if you removed passives or made them restart with each campaign but everyone is here for different reasons and I think some style of fresh start campaign that has everyone rolling new vessels with a seperate passive tree from their main accounts would have huge appeal.

The things that draw me to a game like Crowfall over Overwatch is:

  • Open World PvP
  • Mass Scale Combat
  • Crafting/Gathering/Economy


My first thoughts of MMOs before I even realized they existed as a genre was while I was playing Age of Empires II back in the day and thinking "Wouldn't it be cool if there was a game where each individual unit was a player?" That drew me to MMOs and made me fall in love with the genre DESPITE the power disparities. Personally I'd love the game even more if I had the option to participate in full reset campaigns. 

Essentially it takes your "Here's your bonus for playing longer" which I don't need or care to have and turns it into another dimension of building up properly, with proper passive allocation being important to the progression of the campaign. That's exciting to me because it adds a new layer of strategy.

Edited by Andius

"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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On day one when the game launches and all crow stats are equal, everyone who has been playing before will have the knowledge of where points need to go. Noobs will misallocate points as they learn.

I don't think a catch up system is fair to long term players.

I think loot drop passive skill manuals might be an idea, find a skinning book worth 1000 points, you could use it or sell if your tree is maxed.

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One way to keep dual tracks and slow down progression is go back to having primary and secondary training slots.  The secondary training slot earns half (or whatever number seems balanced) the points/time that the primary slot does.  It forces you to make a decision on what you want to focus on what you want to be without totally ignoring the other parts of the game.

 

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43 minutes ago, ninjalibrarian said:

One way to keep dual tracks and slow down progression is go back to having primary and secondary training slots.  The secondary training slot earns half (or whatever number seems balanced) the points/time that the primary slot does.  It forces you to make a decision on what you want to focus on what you want to be without totally ignoring the other parts of the game.

 

For what good? Slowing down progress doesn't address the fundamental problems with passive skill gain, which are:

1. Later players to join are permanently behind and can never catch up

2. Greatly rewards players for buying more accounts, essentially P2W.

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11 minutes ago, Tiberius_Invictus said:

For what good? Slowing down progress doesn't address the fundamental problems with passive skill gain, which are:

1. Later players to join are permanently behind and can never catch up

2. Greatly rewards players for buying more accounts, essentially P2W.

I think it may discourage #2 for a non-trivial number of people if they can feel like they are making some progress in combat skill development while focusing on crafting or harvesting.

 

 

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