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Rikutatis

DREGS: What you'd like to see

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Instead of just complaining about what I'm not personally happy with, I'll try providing some feedback (and hopefully discussion) on what I think would be cool additions to the game, particularly the Dregs since that hasn't been implemented yet and it has the potential to be the game mode that will differentiate CF from all the other RvR MMOs currently out there:

1) Win conditions and ruleset: What I really don't want the Dregs to become is just a copy-paste of the faction with just the added grind of having to build the keeps and forts instead of just claiming the preset ones. That means win conditions that revolve simply around building and holding keeps/forts for points, which are accumulated through the seasons. I want something more along the lines of the Bloodstone ruleset which was presented as an example years ago: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=IolWGu7xFlw

Something that forces the more well established alliance to split their forces between defending their city and transporting the bloodstones to the dropoff location, and that allows a "homeless" alliance currently unable to hold a city to still have a fighting chance. Ideally something that would spread out the objectives as much as possible as well to account for performance and zone lock limitations. 

2) Less spammy combat: I know all signs and previous statements point against what I'm proposing here, but I'd really like to see some form of group wide friendly fire (like Big World had) or at the very least guild wide friendly fire (assuming guild caps at something around 50 players). But 5-man group friendly fire would be ideal. If we just have alliance wide free from friendly fire, combat will just play exactly the same as in factions. There'll be very little differentiation. Huge blobs of laggy ability spam clashing against each other in a war of attrition that is usually more fun for the shot callers and leaders to coordinate than for the individual players to participate in. Groups of 5 would give a little more room for individual plays to occur, would spread out people more, and it would be more interesting from a tactical and strategical side as well. Not to mention another mechanism to favor coordination over numbers more. 

3) As much of a clean slate before the start of the CW as possible, or a more flat power curve when it comes to gear. I remember reading a thread in the 5.8 discussion forum a couple months ago (I honestly can't remember who it was, yoink maybe?) showing how passive skills alone would allow a guild to already have a gigantic jump start even after a complete gear wipe (including vessels) at the start of a campaign. And while I won't beat this horse here again, gear currently has a huge role in terms of stats and raw power. Are tomes going to be enough of a catch up mechanism in terms of skills? Can't say, but gear power has gone waaaay beyond what I woud have liked to see for the game, so as much of a clean slate before the start of the campaign would be ideal IMO. I honestly don't have a solution for this one, but frankly I wouldn't mind a Dregs CW where skills are temporarily reset to zero again, although on the other hand doing the gear grind from zero every single time might just lead people to burn out since the grind has become pretty excessive over time. I don't know, frankly nerfing gear a lot and flattening the power curve would really make for a more healthy game IMO. And then it wouldn't matter as much.

These are my initial thoughts and feedback. Would be really interested to see what other people think about it and what they wanna see for the Dregs. 


 

 

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6 hours ago, nenju said:

with the current crafting system might be difficult but i demand full loot preferably 100% full loot

With the current crafting system, full loot will kill the Dregs, I don't even think that is debatable. There will be a time when you will see 100 man guilds here, not alliances. Trolling zones with 20 man groups collecting gear from noobs or the outnumbered will go over like a lead baloon. 

If I'm wrong and the pop isn't there, this game will have failed anyway. Full loot is only good when gear is disposable. That is not the case here.


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10 minutes ago, Armegeddon said:

With the current crafting system, full loot will kill the Dregs, I don't even think that is debatable. There will be a time when you will see 100 man guilds here, not alliances. Trolling zones with 20 man groups collecting gear from noobs or the outnumbered will go over like a lead baloon. 

If I'm wrong and the pop isn't there, this game will have failed anyway. Full loot is only good when gear is disposable. That is not the case here.

Yeah fullloot doesn't work with the current system they have.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, nenju said:

with the current crafting system might be difficult but i demand full loot preferably 100% full loot

Pretty much all that has to be done to make an economy full-loot friendly is you make the durability of items low and the crafting cost as well. Very doable with the current system, and it may be a large portion of why they are fiddling with gear durability so much.

I have the feeling we won't really understand how time-to-create and time-to-consume will work out in terms of gear until after thralls have been implemented and they've perfected it a bit past that point.

One thing I wouldn't assume though, is that when the final system is implemented that regularly running anything  beyond blues is intended as a feasible style of play. If games such as Darkfall are any indicator dragon (Darkfall's legendary equivalent) was very rarely used in ordinary (non-siege) PvP and even in sieges people in full sets of dragon were still pretty rare / generally exceptionally high profile players, and infernal (Darkfall's epic equivalent) was primarily used to supplement sets of bone, with full sets also being rare in ordinary (non-siege) PvP.

People have gotten used to epic and legendary being more common/permanent here, but I wouldn't assume it's meant to be that way.
__________

That being said I agree. I'd like to see everything but discs/vessel lost upon death and vessels have a set number of deaths before they break as well.

Edited by Andius

"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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12 hours ago, Andius said:

good stuff

pretty much what u said, lets hope they figure it out and i come from mortal online there also - ppl used most common gear medium/low rarity and only for sieges expensive/rare stuff was beeing used.

 

losing a white/green set even know shouldnt hurt anyone imo, ^jewelery might be a bit annoying but its never a must have^


Bbhm5iJ.jpg

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, Andius said:

Pretty much all that has to be done to make an economy full-loot friendly is you make the durability of items low and the crafting cost as well. Very doable with the current system, and it may be a large portion of why they are fiddling with gear durability so much.

I have the feeling we won't really understand how time-to-create and time-to-consume will work out in terms of gear until after thralls have been implemented and they've perfected it a bit past that point.

One thing I wouldn't assume though, is that when the final system is implemented that regularly running anything  beyond blues is intended as a feasible style of play. If games such as Darkfall are any indicator dragon (Darkfall's legendary equivalent) was very rarely used in ordinary (non-siege) PvP and even in sieges people in full sets of dragon were still pretty rare / generally exceptionally high profile players, and infernal (Darkfall's epic equivalent) was primarily used to supplement sets of bone, with full sets also being rare in ordinary (non-siege) PvP.

People have gotten used to epic and legendary being more common/permanent here, but I wouldn't assume it's meant to be that way.
__________

That being said I agree. I'd like to see everything but discs/vessel lost upon death and vessels have a set number of deaths before they break as well.

Try to make a confessor book, or a bow..consider we are at 3X training not 1. You want to see this game fail?.... institute full loot... or see Mortal Online.. which has a much less intensive crafting system.

lets face it, everyone knows where the hot spots will be at, Wherre the Mob Bosses, R10/R9 nodes ate at etc. They will become funnels for people to tear gear away from people. I'm not a pixel hugger, but I know time to harvest and craft. It will be untenable. Imagine (don't roll your eyes) Shadowbane seiges when you had 250 vs. 250. Or worse 250 vs 100... You may die three or four times fighting outnumbered.. or more. Longest seige I participated in was right at 12 hours. But even at a two hour max here? What will that cost you? A city and all the guilds crafted gear. Forget your "Zerg Mechanic", lol. You won't be running out naked to defend.. you will have lost your city and more... everything on a prosecuted seige by enemies with superior numbers.

Full loot won't work. IIf you institute full loot, you will see a "arms race" for numbers like you have never seen. Untl people quit playing and the game dies. For any old SB players, look at CN/Pac-Rim. You want to create "Uncle Bob".. institute full loot. Don't say I didn't warn you.

 

EDIT: If you want to dumb down crafting/harvesting to where you just need resources and and anyone can create their own gear it will work.. until ACE abandons that part of the game it will not.

EDIT II: Imagine "Server Wars" where there are multiple seiges every night....

Edited by Armegeddon

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Posted (edited)

Uncle Bob's favorite mechanic is permanent stat advantages. See ArcheAge if you want to see a game that is Uncle Bob's paradise. The top players can one shot someone, who can one shot someone, who can one shot someone, who can one shot someone, who can 1v5 max level players. And it's ALL based around gear. And that gear is permanent/something you can never lose.

So you get players who swipe/no-life their way to the top then run around harassing everyone else still earning their gear solo all day. 

What full loot means, is that if your faction gears up a champion into full oranges, and they go out thinking they can solo harass the enemy cause dey gots da gearz, and then you kill them, that full orange gear now belongs to your faction and they have a champion who needs a new set of gear. It also means when you get together a small-group of skilled players and run around ganking members of that 100-200 man zerg who are all spread across the map that your strikes actually mean something.

Full-loot is a fairly easy system to turn against zergs. People being secure in their gear lasting a while is a very easy system for Uncle Bob to use in their favor.

Now if you are bad at it, don't have spare sets of gear, play too risky, run around solo all the time etc. yeah, full loot sucks. Dregs is meant to be the place for more experienced players anyway though. 

The group I would expect to benefit the most from full loot is these guys: 


Small, coordinated, skilled, and constantly out killing people. They would be fearsome in a full-loot dregs.

Edited by Andius

"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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36 minutes ago, Andius said:

Small, coordinated, skilled, and constantly out killing people. They would be fearsome in a full-loot dregs.

Good luck. We'll agree to disagree. Hope you don't have a city. Because your "Small, coordinated, skilled, and constantly out killing people" group will be homeless looking for a sub, I promise you.


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Posted (edited)

Loot rules aren't really a primary factor in determining if small-elite groups can be viable in the dregs but to the degree they exist as a factor they favor smaller groups because they make guerilla strikes more effective.

The reason guerrilla warfare is so effective at allowing smaller groups to contest larger ones is IRL is a permadeath campaign. In other words, the harsher you punish people for dying, the better guerilla strikes become. The better guerilla strikes become, the more effectively a small group can contest a large one as larger groups need to spread out to gather all the resources they need (and if they don't then node concentration will need to be lowered so they do.)

If small groups aren't viable with full-loot they CERTAINLY won't be viable without it. 

Edited by Andius

"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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1 minute ago, Andius said:

Loot rules aren't really a primary factor in determining if small-elite groups can be viable in the dregs but to the degree they exist as a factor they favor smaller groups because they make guerilla strikes more effective.

If small groups aren't viable with full-loot they CERTAINLY won't be viable without it. 

Abo worked with full loot. But gear wasnt that much of a pain to get. 

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Some will be full loot. And they will quickly become ghost towns. 

It is only fun when you are winning. And noone will win forever. 

The brilliance of this game system is they can do it.  And watch it burn over and over and it will not impact the bottom line if they are smart and have palatable risk options for sane players.

I just worry that they will somehow forget about options like Dany forgot about the Navy.  And lose some seriously important people from the short sightedness.  

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5 minutes ago, srathor said:

Some will be full loot. And they will quickly become ghost towns. 

It is only fun when you are winning. And noone will win forever. 

The brilliance of this game system is they can do it.  And watch it burn over and over and it will not impact the bottom line if they are smart and have palatable risk options for sane players.

I just worry that they will somehow forget about options like Dany forgot about the Navy.  And lose some seriously important people from the short sightedness.  

dragon got blair mathed so it wasnt a problem for dany tho

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Having played full loot games like Darkfall, EVE, Epic on Wurm Online, Mortal Online (Which failed because it was the worst of the games listed btw.) and PvP centric MMOs without full loot like ArcheAge, and always going for groups that are underdogs when I initially joined them, I can tell you playing an underdog in full loot was A LOT more fun that playing the underdog in ArcheAge.

Full loot can be very fun for smaller groups if you adopt the right mentality and strategies. 
 


"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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54 minutes ago, Armegeddon said:

Good luck. We'll agree to disagree. Hope you don't have a city. Because your "Small, coordinated, skilled, and constantly out killing people" group will be homeless looking for a sub, I promise you.

some would say the ability to not piss off everyone else on the server is more important then your own numbers or skill, some guilds seem to have forgotten they only exist because the faction ruleset prevents eradication 


If i'm not outnumbered it's not a real fight.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCy8uqORxhlrMh8oz2230s9g?

 

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