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Rikutatis

DREGS: What you'd like to see

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ultimately full loot would fail because it takes too long with 1x to craft, and along with painful harvesting for leather and the reduced drops we recently got along with high mat, dust, and ember costs no one not even the rich players would ever risk a decent set of gear

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15 minutes ago, Andius said:

Having played full loot games like Darkfall, EVE, Epic on Wurm Online, Mortal Online

I'm a fan of full loot if the systems are balanced to support it (easy acquisition of gear). Mainly I like it because it creates a much better risk vs reward setup for competitive pvp MMOs. In CF if you have Legendary gear, you have no more risk than someone in whites - and you are more likely to win fights. That type of gear progression works ok for pve themeparks, but I feel it ultimately hurts player-base growth in pvp because veterans can use that advantage to crush noobs out of the game.

Ultima Online fans might remember that there were Vanquishing Weapons in the game (rare and overpowered) but they weren't often used because you risked it being looted if you died. When "bless deeds" were added that let you protect an item from looting, it messed up that risk vs reward self-balancing mechanic.

If there isn't full loot, flattened power curve is even more critical to get right.

-----

I'd be interested to try a Dregs with only group immunity (group of 5 is green, everyone else is red). When we tested it early on, it did work for combat but it would be much more challenging in terms of organization and teamwork for guilds - doubt it would be as popular as more zergy rulesets.


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Posted (edited)
On 5/21/2019 at 11:10 AM, Rikutatis said:

1) Win conditions and ruleset

2) Less spammy combat

3) As much of a clean slate before the start of the CW as possible

 

1) Yes please. Give us something to do beyond standing in circles, ganking those doing PVE, and timed blow a hole in a wall to kill a tree siege.

A map that had choke points, travel route difference/benefits, hard to reach strongholds, land control, buffs for POI ownership, guard placement, capture XYZ to be able to capture/siege ABC, etc. None of this is new or out of place in something like Crowfall.

If they had all of that, I'd accept stand in a circle to get points system for winning (maybe). 

There are lots of possible win conditions and resulting rewards to try. From simple, capture X POIs and hold them for Y time. To complex requirements of completing a list of time sensitive, multi-step, map wide, multi-organized guild/alliance objectives. I'd rather have a jammed packed action adventure over a week days or week instead of weeks/months of doing the same repetitive activities that likely the outcomes will be known early on (hello current model).

2) I don't see combat changing drastically unfortunately. Would of really liked melee needing to use positional attacks, ranged being physics based, physics in general, combos being fully realized for all classes and a lot more powers.

The current design is zerg/melee ball friendly. Some form of anti-zerg mechanic would be welcomed. Be it some form of friendly fire or limited/diminishing returns on a target or more precise targeting with friendlies blocking damage if not being hit themselves.

3) Would be interesting to see a cap on how much training could be accessed in a campaign. Ex: 1 year in someone might have XYZ fully trained but they could only access X fully during the current campaign or they could access 50% of X and 50% of Y. Which would possibly bring some balance to new/old/alt accounts. If Tomes or catch up mechanics actually caught someone up in a line, this would even the field. Still would reward alt accounts and guilds having enough of all the necessary harvesters/crafters.

If specializing and dependence are a big deal, keep it that way. Find it rather funny that they put so much value on this yet time removes the value. Of course this is a "future dev" concern but seems avoidable.

Would also like alternative campaigns that allow everyone X points to spend for training at the start and regular training isn't available. This would really remove any difference between accounts being new/old and require players/guilds to pre-select what they will do prior to the campaign. That is risk/reward/strategy/logistics insert whatever sounds cool. Toss in stricter guild limits, no alliances, the less you bring in (item value) the more potential export/winnings, etc.

Everything above could apply to Factions as well. My fear is Dregs will be Faction rules we have plus claim/build strongholds and POIs for a guild instead of the Faction. Would be a real bummer and no go for me.

 

Edited by APE

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On 5/21/2019 at 2:34 PM, Ble said:

I'd like to see PvP, I know I know, this is a PvE game, but one can hope.

Sad but true.

3 hours ago, Armegeddon said:

Try to make a confessor book, or a bow..consider we are at 3X training not 1. You want to see this game fail?.... institute full loot...


Full loot won't work. IIf you institute full loot, you will see a "arms race" for numbers like you have never seen. Untl people quit playing and the game dies. For any old SB players, look at CN/Pac-Rim. You want to create "Uncle Bob".. institute full loot. Don't say I didn't warn you.

Training speeds/potential, resource amounts, crafting requirements, etc can all be dialed in. Remember blueprints or whatever mass production system is supposed to exist at some point. Unless this is supposed to be click and forget to make 1 sword a day or something, I hope it actually allows players to stock pile resources and craft a good number of XYZ relatively easily. As is it wouldn't work but there are tweaks they could make to at least make full loot a potential campaign type for those that want to give it a try. Full game, probably not going to ever work.

1 hour ago, miraluna said:

risk vs reward 

This design is solely lacking in this area.

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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, APE said:

 Remember blueprints or whatever mass production system is supposed to exist at some point. Unless this is supposed to be click and forget to make 1 sword a day or something, I hope it actually allows players to stock pile resources and craft a good number of XYZ relatively easily. As is it wouldn't work but there are tweaks they could make to at least make full loot a potential campaign type for those that want to give it a try. Full game, probably not going to ever work.

I see you post.. but I have never seen you in game. At least on this account. I would suggest you spend time to train...get dust or embers, craft (I have 7 accounts)

Yes... factories, sounds great! who is going to farm all the resources. Who is going to have the skills? What happens when your city is ripped down when you have no stations to craft with? The point I was making was, in a two hour seige, if you are outnumbered, all of your gear, the time to craft, the time to gather, can all be undone, months of playing by dozens of people, on an equal playing field.... not to menttion if you are outnumbered two to one..I don't se how people do not see this coming.. never played shadowbane.. let me fill you in..

I will gather a force, through alliance or sheer number, I will dominate the resource spwwns, I've got a three hundred man roster (imagine when Winterblades and House Avari were dominating things). If I call in I can get 150 on in a night... easy. I get geared faster, I start tearing down cities. An alliance forms. I ally people (easy, everyone jumps in on the winner). I'm better because ive got more resources and numbers. You have two choices at this point. Cede your city to me or come out time and time again until no one in you guild has any gear left, and then you are broke and I get everything anyway. Tomorrow, I take your other city, or your allies city, and stockpile gear...factories won't solve that poorly made socks. People will stop logging, and I'll just take more....snowball... Uncle Bob. That is what will happen. Full loot doesn't help "small leet PvP groups", because the minute you do that, I'll show up with 300 and rip down what has taken you weeks or months to build, take anyone's gear that is foolish enough to face my numbers, and make you homeless just for the simple fact that you rolled my farming groups.... I've seen it happen in games.. Factories will help ZERGS btw, how could it not? Think about it...

So, when your guild has no guild city left, and all your gear is looted out by a three hundred person horde, your player base is demoralized facing hours upon hours of regrinding mats in the current format (that is not going away, that is Blairs design), tell me how you will get the troops to not uninstall...? You wont.
Again, I warned you(full loot)

Edited by Armegeddon

.

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2 hours ago, Staff said:

some would say the ability to not piss off everyone else on the server is more important then your own numbers or skill, some guilds seem to have forgotten they only exist because the faction ruleset prevents eradication 

To a good extent, you are right. But, don't mind this little fishbowl. There are gaming communities out there that could bring more people alone than we have playing collectively amongst the entire population... then i guess it doesn't give a damned who you piss off.

Right now, emulated games have higher pops. If this is the way it stays, then we will all looking for another game. If it doesn't, and pop does come... a lot of people wil be changing their mindset.


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1 hour ago, Armegeddon said:

To a good extent, you are right. But, don't mind this little fishbowl. There are gaming communities out there that could bring more people alone than we have playing collectively amongst the entire population... then i guess it doesn't give a damned who you piss off.

Right now, emulated games have higher pops. If this is the way it stays, then we will all looking for another game. If it doesn't, and pop does come... a lot of people wil be changing their mindset.

if those communities came ultimately whoever survives would be the best cupper, unless someone thinks they can pull some god tier strategies off and win which would be possible given their lack of knowledge in the beginning, but no kingdom lasts forever no matter how large, EVE is a good example that even the invincible have an Achilles heel somewhere, sometimes you just need a friend on the inside

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Armegeddon said:

I see you post.. but I have never seen you in game. At least on this account. I would suggest you spend time to train...get dust or embers, craft (I have 7 accounts)

I use this account on Test sometimes. Beyond that, I play one of my alt accounts when I do rarely play as Chaos. Also log in to get my participation prizes with the few accounts I have. Have no intention on harvesting/crafting come launch so don't find a need to do so now. As that seems to be a big chunk of gameplay along with PVE which I also have no interest in, can see why the current design isn't for me.

Quote

Yes... factories, sounds great! who is going to farm all the resources. Who is going to have the skills? What happens when your city is ripped down when you have no stations to craft with? 

Apparently some people like to do these things. Originally crafting and harvesting were to be full time roles, but seems like everyone is expected to do a little or lot of each as well. Every account should have at least harvesting or crafting training, if not both.

Factories as described don't seem likely with the current design with the ever growing number of components needed. But as Blair seemed to like the idea and with SWG/EVE being inspiration, I can only assume they are still planned in some form.

No clue how it will work come launch. Can we move freely between EK and ongoing Campaigns? Can we transfer items between them? Gear being looted or going poof from durability leaves players in the same position. Will we actually see a thriving economy outside of guilds? If players don't have access to craft, what can they do? If nothing, then I guess they play with what they have until it's gone then give up? Campaigns need to end some how. Maybe there will be a Free City of some sort that allows crafting a certain quality of gear or comes at a tax/cost?

Quote

The point I was making was, in a two hour seige, if you are outnumbered, all of your gear, the time to craft, the time to gather, can all be undone, months of playing by dozens of people, on an equal playing field.... not to menttion if you are outnumbered two to one..I don't se how people do not see this coming..

I see the obvious issues and why I mentioned that it wouldn't work with the current design, at least not the current math. If it takes weeks/months to gear a team, losing it all in one session is highly unlikely to be by design. Hence, tweaking the numbers where it doesn't take months of grinding to get there or whatever hurdles of which I find less then fun already.

Albion Online is a recent game that does full loot fairly well and continues to improve. Most used gear is fairly easy come/go but there is still a tiered system and high end gear to obtain that has risk/reward value in using. It also has systems in place that reward various types of play beyond bring 300 and roll people.

Quote

never played shadowbane.. let me fill you in..
I will gather a force, through alliance or sheer number, I will dominate the resource spwwns, I've got a three hundred man roster (imagine when Winterblades and House Avari were dominating things). If I call in I can get 150 on in a night... easy. I get geared faster, I start tearing down cities. An alliance forms. I ally people (easy, everyone jumps in on the winner). I'm better because ive got more resources and numbers. You have two choices at this point. Cede your city to me or come out time and time again until no one in you guild has any gear left, and then you are broke and I get everything anyway. Tomorrow, I take your other city, or your allies city, and stockpile gear...factories won't solve that poorly made socks. People will stop logging, and I'll just take more....snowball... Uncle Bob. That is what will happen. Full loot doesn't help "small leet PvP groups", because the minute you do that, I'll show up with 300 and rip down what has taken you weeks or months to build, take anyone's gear that is foolish enough to face my numbers, and make you homeless just for the simple fact that you rolled my farming groups.... I've seen it happen in games.. Factories will help ZERGS btw, how could it not? Think about it...

So, when your guild has no guild city left, and all your gear is looted out by a three hundred person horde, your player base is demoralized facing hours upon hours of regrinding mats in the current format (that is not going away, that is Blairs design), tell me how you will get the troops to not uninstall...? You wont.
Again, I warned you(full loot)

This assumes some things. That they'll actually get performance to a level that people can swarm others, that the game will be that popular, that they won't implement any anti-zerg mechanics, pure numbers will win the day, world map will remain some what small, no guild limits, no risk/reward system, etc. Along with copying SB in a few areas that have yet to be seen or discussed that I know of.

I don't disagree with your view or prediction. Just saying that they could change things here and there to make alternative campaign rulesets a possibility. Which seemed to be one of the main strengths of their concept. Unfortunately seems they are trending towards only one or two ways to play which will be unfortunate.

Seems like Uncle Bob will love Crowfall regardless of what happens. As is, I don't see how 300 showing up against a smaller force won't dominate regardless of full loot or not. If that is standard gameplay, this game is done anyway.

 

Edited by APE

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12 hours ago, miraluna said:

...

I'd be interested to try a Dregs with only group immunity (group of 5 is green, everyone else is red). When we tested it early on, it did work for combat but it would be much more challenging in terms of organization and teamwork for guilds - doubt it would be as popular as more zergy rulesets.

It worked really well in Big World. I'd go a step further: your own group is green, alliance is blue and you can hit them both with healing (as per current faction rules) as well as damage, enemies are red and you can only hit them with damage. 


 

 

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On 5/21/2019 at 10:21 PM, PopeUrban said:

permadeath

I wish it was permadeath right now in 5.90. We would have all your keeps and you would be starting over with an untrained character. Go look at the NA map

 

On 5/22/2019 at 5:52 PM, Andius said:

-snipped-

Full-loot is a fairly easy system to turn against zergs. People being secure in their gear lasting a while is a very easy system for Uncle Bob to use in their favor.

Now if you are bad at it, don't have spare sets of gear, play too risky, run around solo all the time etc. yeah, full loot sucks. Dregs is meant to be the place for more experienced players anyway though. 

The group I would expect to benefit the most from full loot is these guys: 


Small, coordinated, skilled, and constantly out killing people. They would be fearsome in a full-loot dregs.

I wish it was full loot right now in 5.90 today. We would have all your keeps, and all your loot, and you would be perma- dead, starting over on a naked, unarmed, untrained toon with no keep. Go look at the NA map.

Evidently you Euros have forgotten the last time we spent a weekend on your servers. If we need to come over to the E.U. and change that 4Chaos/2 Order map ratio to 6 Balance, Yumix and his Merry band of goat ropers ain't gonna even be a speed bump. 

On 5/22/2019 at 7:23 PM, Staff said:

some would say the ability to not piss off everyone else on the server is more important then your own numbers or skill, some guilds seem to have forgotten they only exist because the faction ruleset prevents eradication 

Eradication happened go look at the NA map first day in the Trial of Maeve, and we weren't even disgruntled off. Now how can you tell if someone is disgruntled off when they speak Mandarin and there are a couple thousand of them on your server. I'll tell ya... You ain't got no keep, you're perma- dead, and your nekkid. 

On 5/22/2019 at 10:07 PM, Armegeddon said:

-snip-

So, when your guild has no guild city left, and all your gear is looted out by a three hundred thirty person horde, your player base is demoralized facing hours upon hours of regrinding mats in the current format (that is not going away, that is Blairs design), tell me how you will get the troops to not uninstall...? You wont.
Again, I warned you(full loot)

Jeeze man why you warning them, let them have their way, so I can have their stuff... at least until the East Asians get here. Oh I fixed your post, contrary to popular belief we didn't have quite 300 hundred tonight, but if it was a Full Loot rule-set we would have made sure to put a few xtra people in the head chopping loot squad.

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Posted (edited)

Frankly they need to expand on the skull drops make them worth something, I don't know about you guys but I would rather loose my entire inventory than let one of you get my skull I'd like to see a rule-set where skulls decided victory

Edited by corvax

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1 hour ago, corvax said:

I wish it was permadeath right now in 5.90. We would have all your keeps and you would be starting over with an untrained character. Go look at the NA map

 

I wish it was full loot right now in 5.90 today. We would have all your keeps, and all your loot, and you would be perma- dead, starting over on a naked, unarmed, untrained toon with no keep. Go look at the NA map. He is balance

Evidently you Euros have forgotten the last time we spent a weekend on your servers. If we need to come over to the E.U. and change that 4Chaos/2 Order map ratio to 6 Balance, Yumix and his Merry band of goat ropers ain't gonna even be a speed bump. euros deserve to be stomped by america's endless manifest destiny 

Eradication happened go look at the NA map first day in the Trial of Maeve, and we weren't even disgruntled off. Now how can you tell if someone is disgruntled off when they speak Mandarin and there are a couple thousand of them on your server. I'll tell ya... You ain't got no keep, you're perma- dead, and your nekkid. to be eradicated we would actually have to show up first

Jeeze man why you warning them, let them have their way, so I can have their stuff... at least until the East Asians get here. Oh I fixed your post, contrary to popular belief we didn't have quite 300 hundred tonight, but if it was a Full Loot rule-set we would have made sure to put a few xtra people in the head chopping loot squad. 

 

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Posted (edited)

To be clear I don't belong to Vanguard, and I'm not European. I'm American. The reason I'm featured in their video is because I fought alongside 3 of them + another player who was TRA at the time in a fight where we stopped 9 balance 5v9 right here on NA. They were winning 4v9 when I arrived on scene but my CCs did hasten the inevitable.
 

 

Edited by Andius

"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, corvax said:

Goat ropers

Hmmm, what is this conversation?

This seems like an unnecessary flex.. 

1: Hi, my guild is on Balance on EU, we're 5 people and just want to practice, not being involved in these squabbles.

2: Why would we make ropes?

3: Last time you guys visited EU was back in Trial of Zaleena, and that fight didn't go so well for you guys:

4: Yes you could probably overrun the server, could be fun to see.

Now please leave us out of this flexing competition.

Edited by Yumx

 pJ5xyok.png
My Twitch - My Youtube - Apply to Vanguard HERE!

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On 5/22/2019 at 4:16 AM, nenju said:

with the current crafting system might be difficult but i demand full loot preferably 100% full loot

on full loot servers they can just up the resource drops rate or reduce the materially cost to craft items. prob reduce the dura on equipment slightly too if there easier to craft.


Veeshan Midst of UXA

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1 hour ago, corvax said:

I wish it was permadeath right now in 5.90. We would have all your keeps and you would be starting over with an untrained character. Go look at the NA map

We've played NA balance since before you lot left order at the start of the trials and took the landscaping off our hands. We'll probably still be playing NA balance when you leave as well.

You really shouldn't drink on the job. Its very unprofessional.


PopeSigGIF.gif

Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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On 5/22/2019 at 6:25 PM, Staff said:

ultimately full loot would fail because it takes too long with 1x to craft, and along with painful harvesting for leather and the reduced drops we recently got along with high mat, dust, and ember costs no one not even the rich players would ever risk a decent set of gear

 

8 hours ago, veeshan said:

on full loot servers they can just up the resource drops rate or reduce the materially cost to craft items. prob reduce the dura on equipment slightly too if there easier to craft.

Whats the point of full time crafters then?  If they can make nothing meaningful why put months into crafting? 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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14 hours ago, veeshan said:

on full loot servers they can just up the resource drops rate or reduce the materially cost to craft items. prob reduce the dura on equipment slightly too if there easier to craft.

Exactly!

6 hours ago, mandalore said:

 

Whats the point of full time crafters then?  If they can make nothing meaningful why put months into crafting? 

How is it any less meaningful if it takes less materials to craft but also has less durability? 

If anything increased gear churn increases need for crafters. I do think the many step crafting process for most things could use some streamlining. We also need proper bank space. 

I get the Shadowbane crowd doesn’t like equipped item loot because Shadowbane didn’t have it but many FFA pvp conquest games have equipped item loot and it works great (Darkfall, Mortal Online, Albion Online, Eve Online, etc.). 

Different pvp loot rules is part of the risk vs reward equation in the harsher campaign bands per original Kickstarter design. I hope they keep to it. 

Crowfall_WorldRules_1.jpg

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3 minutes ago, blazzen said:

Different pvp loot rules is part of the risk vs reward equation in the harsher campaign bands per original Kickstarter design. I hope they keep to it. 

 

I think the reason some folks are opposed to full loot is due to the grind required to get the gear. Since the current trend is to add more grind in every aspect of the game, I doubt we will see paperdoll looting. In fact I foresee inventory bags that cant be looted becoming standard gear in the future. 

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