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Dober

Why are Assassins so gimped in this game?

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Like in so many other games I prefer playing an assassin.
However I was shocked to discover how “wrong” this class has been implemented in Crowfall.
The only classical assassin features that were kept here are stealth, poisons and damage from behind

 

Where are the gap closers? A blind? Where is a proper ambush when one teleport behind the target and stuns them?
With everyone being able to get out of stun more that I can stun them how am I supposed to keep my target in reach? And how am I supposed to catch fleeing target?

Being so freakishly squishy assassins have no survivability, and you have not given us even a proper gap closer and some king of damage mitigation?

How come only one spec of assassin have got a non-breakable stun (like cheap shot) and only the other a ambush  (which isn’t even a proper one)?

I know that one can say that Diffusion slows and Caltrops …. Yeah, only when you got all conditions, like poison and right amount of pips to use it….
The only stun ability (in cutthroat spec) has a ridiculous cool down.

Unless Assassins a given a decent gap closer (preferably the one that stuns or roots or slows) and some way to mitigate damage (and I don’t mean the useless shield from the middle spec) we will remain a gimped class useless in sieges and extremely underpowered in open world.

As of now all the start must align for us in order to get some nice kills in PvP.
This is just a unfair way in which assassin are implemented in this game.

 

Fix us a.s.a.p.!

Edited by Dober

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3 hours ago, PinkFluffyPanda said:

How about their disengage ability?  Turn your back to your fleeing enemy press disengage, then turn around and face them again press engage, plus you have two dodges? 

Yes assassins have that ability, but it is mostly suited to get away, if you are chasing someone its bloody useless, especially when quick turning around of the camera will result in an unpredictable direction.
It only works in theory, in practice its useless.

It would be really nice to have an ability (not dependent on spec tree or Major/Minor Disc) to catch up with someone, preferably slowing or stunning them at the same time.
And also to be able to dodge an attack.

This is the only game not having that kind of dynamic for Assassin that i know of.

And the two dodges are not Assassin specific, everyone has more or less 2-3 dodges.

Edited by Dober

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You pretty much cant kill them 1v1 alot of the time if they know what there doing cause they simply disengage 180 use again run in straight line till dots leave re stealth heal up in stealth using the ability and harassing the other person with there stealth skills and re enagaging again when it suites them.

then there templars who physically cant kill anyone cause the opponent just walks off when they decide they cant win :P 

Edited by veeshan

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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1 hour ago, Dober said:

And the two dodges are not Assassin specific, everyone has more or less 2-3 dodges.

take escape artist and you will get more dodges in a row

take fae and you will get longest and fastest "dodge roll".

current race/class statement dictates fae is the best race but strange disciplines mechanic forces to take half elf for free slots.

10 hours ago, Dober said:

Where are the gap closers? A blind? Where is a proper ambush when one teleport behind the target and stuns them?

2 gap closers are built in. it is more than some melee have.

Blind, "proper ambush with teleport"  is the skills from other games which ACE wont reproduce here, I suppose.

10 hours ago, Dober said:

However I was shocked to discover how “wrong” this class has been implemented in Crowfall.

you will discover alot more shock content right after you try out any other class. balance and "fully working class mechanics" is not about current statement of the game.

10 hours ago, Dober said:

With everyone being able to get out of stun more that I can stun them how am I supposed to keep my target in reach? And how am I supposed to catch fleeing target?

not everyone able. not anytime. you supposed to keep your target in reach with more experience using right runes. assassins is very mobility class if built right.

there are also big issue with CC/AntiCC design which makes CC builds are worthless

10 hours ago, Dober said:

How come only one spec of assassin have got a non-breakable stun (like cheap shot) and only the other a ambush  (which isn’t even a proper one)?

well, this is how devs build class specs. other classes have the same problems which mean they should chose role.

 

I can keep discussion coz I remember how assassin was born, how assassin was meta for a long time, how he fall and such.

but I would like to say before whine:

1) take fae, get demon's pact

2) get blue+ armor with epic+ accessory and epic+ runic weapon

3) get blue+ vessel

4) play alot vs more enemies or vs good veterans

5) experience with builds (test server will help)

and then you can produce correct questions.

 

current assassins statement: middle dps, good sustain, 2 viable specs, player skill requirement to success, almost 100% chance to escape in scale pvp.

role: scouting, approach from the rear

Edited by makkon

crowfall pvp makkonMyrmidon statement: Out of Fury

Discord makkon#8550

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7 minutes ago, makkon said:

take escape artist and you will get more dodges in a row

take fae and you will get longest and fastest "dodge roll".

current race/class statement dictates fae is the best race but strange disciplines mechanic forces to take half elf for free slots.

Well, one pretty much has to chose Fae as an assassin, other races are less preferable, although indeed elf is the second best.

 

12 minutes ago, makkon said:

2 gap closers are built in. it is more than some melee have.

Everybody has those, so its not a gap closer. Unless Assassin has the opportunity to open up on a stationary target those "not" gap-closers are of insignificant value. Coz when i open up and use stun, the target breaks out of it and jumps away, the distances of the "right click: skills are also all different so i have to use mine and then either run back or chase. Then rinse and repeat.
And its even worse when i first to have to use a right clicks to close the distance, then i just wont be able to catch them because they (in most cases) have 2 dodge rolls to use.

 

23 minutes ago, makkon said:

you will discover alot more shock content right after you try out any other class. balance and "fully working class mechanics" is not about current statement of the game.

You can say that right, after i saw what a Myrmidon or a Champion can do i was.... damn ...
Indeed balance seems to be a side issue with the devs at the moment. 
And that is why I am giving my take on the Assassin and how to make it more viable, and not just hitting and running back and then trying again.
Its called an Assassin, not feral druid for crying out loud!
 

 

24 minutes ago, makkon said:

you supposed to keep your target in reach with more experience using right runes. assassins is very mobility class if built right.

Well, One Major is pretty much always Black mask (especially for the upper spec). The other Major disc makes you choose what to sacrifice. And that shouldn't be the case for a squishy melee class. 
I would like to be able to close the gap and lay down some slow or dazed effect, both not just one.

 

27 minutes ago, makkon said:

well, this is how devs build class specs. other classes have the same problems which mean they should chose role.

Well I wont speak for all other classes but just take a look at Myrm and Champ.... they dont have problems with either gap closing or CC.... and got a freaking lot of damage on top of that as well and even some invincibility. Damp the gift that just keeps on giving....
I guess Devs meant to make them like this..... hmm... not really an argument is it?


 

 

30 minutes ago, makkon said:

1) take fae, get demon's pact

2) get blue+ armor with epic+ accessory and epic+ runic weapon

3) get blue+ vessel

4) play alot vs more enemies or vs good veterans

5) experience with builds (test server will help)

The list is true for every class (well maybe the first point is more Assassin specific), and could be said about every one of those classes.
One should always try to get decent gear and vessel.
And ofcourse experience is needed a swell.
 

And yet none of that will correct for the fact that Assassins just lack certain abilities which they should have had.
If you have two similarly geared and experienced people those class shortcoming will be the same.



Ill be damned if I would have to switch to Mymr or Champ because of the inability of Devs to make some classes playable....




 

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5 minutes ago, Dober said:

Everybody has those, so its not a gap closer. Unless Assassin has the opportunity to open up on a stationary target those "not" gap-closers are of insignificant value. Coz when i open up and use stun, the target breaks out of it and jumps away, the distances of the "right click: skills are also all different so i have to use mine and then either run back or chase. Then rinse and repeat.
And its even worse when i first to have to use a right clicks to close the distance, then i just wont be able to catch them because they (in most cases) have 2 dodge rolls to use.

again, not everybody. but assassins have. fae is mandatory if you want to be very mobility and able to fast escape. else do not complain.

and again, take escape artist or illusionist if you have reach problems or dps issues. every single melee have such problems you listing. for me this is not an argument.

8 minutes ago, Dober said:

You can say that right, after i saw what a Myrmidon or a Champion can do i was.... damn ...
Indeed balance seems to be a side issue with the devs at the moment. 
And that is why I am giving my take on the Assassin and how to make it more viable, and not just hitting and running back and then trying again.
Its called an Assassin, not feral druid for crying out loud!

what they can do? 5k crits to dummy? yes. with top gear and cap stats.

titans and alpha warriors are hardly depend on party healers. else they die and have almost no options to escape. assassins does not need it coz escape.

on eu I almost do not see good titans (probably Vanguard's one) and never seen good alpha warrior. but seen alot of assassins.

do you try to get the same experience with you are speaking before complaining? show me easy game with titan plz (I do not familiar with alpha warrior tbh)

 

14 minutes ago, Dober said:

Well I wont speak for all other classes but just take a look at Myrm and Champ.... they dont have problems with either gap closing or CC.... and got a freaking lot of damage on top of that as well and even some invincibility. Damp the gift that just keeps on giving....
I guess Devs meant to make them like this..... hmm... not really an argument is it?

myrmidon have one CC - net pull which working in 50% of times in bigger than 1v1 fights. all other CC you can skip coz useless.

champion have more, yes. So, you can take those class, own everyone you seen, record video, report it and they will be fixed soon.

 

but again, I repeate my questions. do you get top end gear, good skill tree lvling and built correct your class? how many hours you spent on trainings?

or you just login, lvl white vessel to 30lvl, get some random disciplines and white gear and wanna split heads right now? it does not working.

 

 


crowfall pvp makkonMyrmidon statement: Out of Fury

Discord makkon#8550

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2 hours ago, Dober said:

Yes assassins have that ability, but it is mostly suited to get away, if you are chasing someone its bloody useless, especially when quick turning around of the camera will result in an unpredictable direction.
It only works in theory, in practice its useless.

Okay this i just dont agree with you on. 

Im my experience it works just fine to keep up with people by using disengage and engage plus dodges. 

But ofc you might have another experience. 

Im not sure but if you land a engage, does that not slow your taget? Cant remember. 

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There are a lot of issues with the assassin that makes them questionable - getting away from a small grOup or fight isnt one of them.  

 

While squishy they have the potential to be great at locking down a target - problem here is that retaliate is far too strong and unlikely to change.

 

Other classes have far more staying power in a fight and can do far greater crits, their tool kits are also a bit more limited - the issue here is balancing.  Not something you should though wait for since the Devs have stated that not everything will be balanced.

 

The major issue with the assassin is their trouble chasing a target since in most scenarios at one point or another people will flee (especially when the spirit bank is removed) - you can chase but desync and other game issues means its not going to be easy. Disengage-Engage is a tool u will have to use.  Would it be nice if the Sin had something like the Rangers Forest Step - sure.  They dont - so get over it and move on.  Improvise.  They arent unable to chase - just challenging to play.

 

It also sounds like you are not using Expose Punish as a tool in you planning of the fights... read up on Expose + Diffusion.

 

The race issue is definately up for graps - imo its not a -must- have situation but more of - whom are you playing with and what is your role.

The fae is definately for the solo player whom need to escape and mobility to move through terrain like warcamps etc.

The high elf is better damage but you need a grp or two knowing that you will need positional help from time to time.

 

I think (guessing here) you need to learn more about your targets - choose your engagements.  Just cause you can doesnt mean you should.


Huginn ok Muninn, fljúga hverjan dag, Jörmungrund yfir; óumk ek of Hugin,, at hann aftr né komi-t, þó sjámk meir of Munin

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Ps using Disengage - Engage is fine - it sounds cocky but it is a matter of pratice and lots of it.

 

Tip : Use the compass when spinning 180.


Huginn ok Muninn, fljúga hverjan dag, Jörmungrund yfir; óumk ek of Hugin,, at hann aftr né komi-t, þó sjámk meir of Munin

Gathering of Ranger videos

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7 hours ago, makkon said:

take the fae for the longest dodge

Nethari has the longest..,  but yeah the speed of the Faes is definately good (slowed a bit in last patch though)


Huginn ok Muninn, fljúga hverjan dag, Jörmungrund yfir; óumk ek of Hugin,, at hann aftr né komi-t, þó sjámk meir of Munin

Gathering of Ranger videos

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31 minutes ago, Soulreaver said:

Nethari has the longest..,  but yeah the speed of the Faes is definately good (slowed a bit in last patch though)

double jump + dodge roll not working anymore in 5.9 with increased speed? did not test it


crowfall pvp makkonMyrmidon statement: Out of Fury

Discord makkon#8550

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26 minutes ago, makkon said:

double jump + dodge roll not working anymore in 5.9 with increased speed? did not test it

Speed increase is a thing of the past mate :)


Huginn ok Muninn, fljúga hverjan dag, Jörmungrund yfir; óumk ek of Hugin,, at hann aftr né komi-t, þó sjámk meir of Munin

Gathering of Ranger videos

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Hey @Dober, I saw you last night in the siege, and you got caught in a bad position it seems.

 

How long have you played the game now? It seems like from what you write that you are fairly new.

 

Fae Assassin has a lot of mobility, remember you can dodge in the air, so double jumping up and dodging can make your movement unpredictable for the enemy.

 

As Soulreaver says, the disengage/engage power is very reliable - you just need to practice it.

 

As a cutthroat you really need to learn to pick your fights, you are very squishy, that's intended, but you also pack a punch. Especially with good gear.

A good companion for you would be a healing druid, a mobile support to place orbs you can fall back on.

 

You will find yourself having a hard time solo in this game, so find a group that matches your motivations in this game.

If you want more passive mobility in combat you can try out High-elf with escape artist Major.

Actually a cutthroat works well in a full stealth group, where other stealthers can compliment your hard openers.

Get used to restealthing very often and open up again when you feel like you can pull it off.

You can restealth quick if you practice it (press your melee tray keybind - > use dodge immediately after - > spam stealth key while in the air of your dodge)

And last but not least, assassins are pretty much kings of 1v1 if played well, so keep practicing!

Edited by Yumx

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48 minutes ago, Yumx said:

Hey @Dober, I saw you last night in the siege, and you got caught in a bad position it seems.

Well Was wearing only white gear. And the situation was such that flanking wasn't possible, but that is not the issue im talking about.

 

53 minutes ago, Yumx said:

As Soulreaver says, the disengage/engage power is very reliable - you just need to practice it.

A few people nw have talked bout engage/disengage. Again, its fairly okay to get away from someone, but its terrible for catching up with someone who is getting away.
I have a decent gaming PC and people i play with as well, but of you have to rotate camera twice 180 degrees and want to go i a straight line, 8 out of 10 times your camera will turn in unexpected direction. It might be a an optimization  issue with the game, but im pretty sure all of you know what im talking about.

And its quite fun dynamic dont get me wrong, but its not suited to chase someone down, if it works 8 out of 10 times its not reliable  thing to use.

 

3 hours ago, Soulreaver said:

Disengage-Engage is a tool u will have to use.  Would it be nice if the Sin had something like the Rangers Forest Step - sure.  They dont - so get over it and move on.  Improvise.  They arent unable to chase - just challenging to play.

Hmm. Get over it and move on.... Well i would rather suggest that Devs make it work and dont pin it on a players so called inability to use it.
So, am i to understand that the camera skipping and jumping all over the place when rotated is not an issue?
If you saying that its not, then me and at least a dozen others are just lying (or all have really crappy computers).
If it is an issue, are there plans to fix it? and how soon?

IN either case, Disengage-Engage is not reliable at the moment. even when you are getting away from someone and only have to spin your camera 180 degrees only once, 4 ot of 10 times it still messes up.

 

2 hours ago, Soulreaver said:

While squishy they have the potential to be great at locking down a target - problem here is that retaliate is far too strong and unlikely to change.

Well, why not give us something to actually lock someone in place for at least a second or two, something that actually works, unlike the effect of diffusion, but a proper knock down.
 

1 hour ago, Yumx said:

You will find yourself having a hard time solo in this game, so find a group that matches your motivations in this game.

Well Myrms and Champs are doing just fine solo.

Maybe the Devs made a mistake in naming the class, lets give Myrm a stealth and call them Assassins.
And the current Assassins can be renamed in something like bogyman. Not being able to actually effectively kill an enemy, only scare them and disappear.

 

 

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21 minutes ago, Dober said:

Well Was wearing only white gear. And the situation was such that flanking wasn't possible, but that is not the issue im talking about.

 

A few people nw have talked bout engage/disengage. Again, its fairly okay to get away from someone, but its terrible for catching up with someone who is getting away.
I have a decent gaming PC and people i play with as well, but of you have to rotate camera twice 180 degrees and want to go i a straight line, 8 out of 10 times your camera will turn in unexpected direction. It might be a an optimization  issue with the game, but im pretty sure all of you know what im talking about.

And its quite fun dynamic dont get me wrong, but its not suited to chase someone down, if it works 8 out of 10 times its not reliable  thing to use.

 

Hmm. Get over it and move on.... Well i would rather suggest that Devs make it work and dont pin it on a players so called inability to use it.
So, am i to understand that the camera skipping and jumping all over the place when rotated is not an issue?
If you saying that its not, then me and at least a dozen others are just lying (or all have really crappy computers).
If it is an issue, are there plans to fix it? and how soon?

IN either case, Disengage-Engage is not reliable at the moment. even when you are getting away from someone and only have to spin your camera 180 degrees only once, 4 ot of 10 times it still messes up.

 

Well, why not give us something to actually lock someone in place for at least a second or two, something that actually works, unlike the effect of diffusion, but a proper knock down.
 

Well Myrms and Champs are doing just fine solo.

Maybe the Devs made a mistake in naming the class, lets give Myrm a stealth and call them Assassins.
And the current Assassins can be renamed in something like bogyman. Not being able to actually effectively kill an enemy, only scare them and disappear.

 

 

U either get a chase - or an escape.  Getting both is asking to be spoiled and lets not go there :)

 

Seriously though Disengage and Engage works well to chase as well as escape.  It does take pratice to chase with it - it is reliable and using the compass as a visual guide makes it a successful ability 9/10 times.

 

A way to lock ppl down that works?  You have the longest stun in the game, asking for even more is tbh needless - change specs then and look at disciplines.  The problem is Retaliate - and the rate by which it recovers. That isnt a problem with the assassin toolkit - its one game issue and its your choices.  

You want a root - look at Arcane Archer/Sharpshooter/Naiard(?)/Molehunter.

You want a slow - well Poison Toxin already apply that with Diffusion, but sure look at Illusionist...

Etc.

 

If you cant effectively kill the enemy.. you’re going it wrong.

Edited by Soulreaver

Huginn ok Muninn, fljúga hverjan dag, Jörmungrund yfir; óumk ek of Hugin,, at hann aftr né komi-t, þó sjámk meir of Munin

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As for the camera jumping all over the place... I am indeed saying that is you.

 

Im not saying you’re lying.  Nor that I dont know what you mean.  In the begining I had some of the same issues.... 

 

Be it your mouse speed, nervers in combat and pressure or just bad mouse movement....  

 

Others -are- making it work and as such blaiming the system isnt going to make up for the issues you’re experiencing.

Edited by Soulreaver

Huginn ok Muninn, fljúga hverjan dag, Jörmungrund yfir; óumk ek of Hugin,, at hann aftr né komi-t, þó sjámk meir of Munin

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I have to agree with @Soulreaverhere, the disengage-engage is working just fine to catch up to people, if you cant make it work either your sensivity is off or your Mouse is skipping, maybe your mousepad could even be the issue?

I have allways found the disengage - engage to be very reliable in both chasing and escaping.

So asking for more catchup, you will have to look at disc's? But honestly it should be enough, there will ofc might be some wierd builds who has put everything into mobility, dedicated harvesters comes to mind since they are basicly the mouse and you the cat. 

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Personally I have played Counter-Strike since 1.5 in competetive league's etc, the later years i have only played for fun though, but to me the 180 flick is just as natural in Crowfall than in Counter-Strike. 

Yes there might be 1 out of 10 where the camera skips in Crowfall due to game performance, but it is not nearly often enough to be an issue. 

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11 minutes ago, Soulreaver said:

You want a root - look at Arcane Archer/Sharpshooter/Naiard(?)/Molehunter.

You want a slow - well Poison Toxin already apply that with Diffusion, but sure look at Illusionist...

Well, As i have said earlier, Black Mask is a must, so you get to chose only 1 more Maroj Disc.
And suggesting to use Arcane Archer/Sharpshooter/Naiard /Molehunter or Illusionist is just silly.

I would rather use something actually useful for an Assassin like Banshee or Agent Provocateur.
And in even doing so i would still have to sacrifice somethings that should bee part of all builds.

 

13 minutes ago, Soulreaver said:

As for the camera jumping all over the place... I am indeed saying that is you.

You just left me speechless here mate. Not only have you denied that there is an issue with camera jumping upon rotation but you also have called a dozen of people liars.
Is that the way to go with you?

And no, its not my computer or ping, got ping of 32 on EU and a pretty decent PC.
One could argue about mouse speed and sensitivity, well if some speed of sensitivity causing performance issue the Devs should limit that.
Like some other games have done!
No, blame it on the player, sure sure, that will get you far.

To be completely fair, yes if one is to rotate a camera 300% more lowly that thing with jumping camera goes away...... 
But that takes more that a second and by that time, just dont bother pressing the Disengage/ Engage coz its too late.

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