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ferrat

Crowfall is not a PvP game.

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People should be able to jump straight into the game and be VIABLE within an incredibly short amount of playtime, viable meaning there is value in you showing up to fights. People should not be able to jump in the game and be fully effective in terms of being on a nearly 1:1 power basis with someone who is properly geared.

Personally as long as the gear loss is fast and gear creation time is similarly fast, and you get punished more heavily for dying in better gear, I think that should be like 95% of the difference in power in the game. Player skill + gear risked = 95% of player power.

Passives should account for like 5%. Personally I think in terms of what they add to the game 0% would be ideal. Rewarding players for playing longer in any way other than more opportunity to grow better as a player is a bad mechanic, and it's why most PvP MMOs fail. If you have been playing longer, but your skills and knowledge are lower than that of an incoming player, you DESERVE to lose.

The reason to make a PvP MMO is that Open World PvP with hundreds or thousands of players is fun. Grind is not what makes an MMO an MMO and the market has shown they will not support a grind heavy PvP game over, and over, and over again. There is no place in the market for a successful PvP game where victory is largely determined by stats on a character sheet.

Edited by Andius

"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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2 minutes ago, PinkFluffyPanda said:

I might be wrong but qs I remember they kind of sold crowfall as an allmost none grind pvp game to begin with? 

I think that's why people expect they can jump straight in at the game and start pvp. 

I guess you and I have a very different definition of "grind" then. The effort it takes to be pvp viable in crowfall isn't that great, it just requires a guild, organization or marketplace. If you're trying to do everything alone, it's going to be a daunting task. The incentive structure supports working with other people instead of solo grinding. It's exactly of the opposite of no-life grind games like Black Desert where socializing with other players is a distraction from your 4 hour grind session at Sausans.


Shadowbane - House Avari/Hy'shen
"Gimp elves get good elves killed." - Belina

Avari Discord - https://discord.gg/Bch24PV

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5 minutes ago, Andius said:

People should be able to jump straight into the game and be VIABLE within an incredibly short amount of playtime, viable meaning there is value in you showing up to fights. People should not be able to jump in the game and be fully effective in terms of being on a nearly 1:1 power basis with someone who is properly geared.

Personally as long as the gear loss is fast and gear creation time is similarly fast, I think that should be like 95% of the difference in power in the game. Player skill + gear risked = 95% of player power.

Passives should account for like 5%. Personally I think in terms of what they add to the game 0% would be ideal. Rewarding players for playing longer in any way other than more opportunity to grow better as a player is a bad mechanic, and it's why most PvP MMOs fail. If you have been playing longer, but your skills and knowledge are lower than that of an incoming player, you DESERVE to lose.

The reason to make a PvP MMO is that Open World PvP with hundreds or thousands of players is fun. Grind is not what makes an MMO an MMO and the market has shown they will not support a grind heavy PvP game time, and time, and time again.

From the perspective of a new player with no social connections and nothing to their name, getting to PvP viability is a dauntingly impossible task. On the other end of the spectrum, a brand new player going into an established guild can be fully PvP viable within a few hours. 

You can get a blue vessel to max level in a few hours if you know what you're doing and have a good leveling group at the right spots. During that time, a fully kitted out and well-supplied crafter can make all the gear you need to be an asset to your group in PvP. 

Again, this pre-supposed a lot of preparation and organization on the part of a group of people working together. Once that prep work is done, however, the investment pays off. Most other games of the genre don't reward this level of player interaction and coordination. Crowfall does.


Shadowbane - House Avari/Hy'shen
"Gimp elves get good elves killed." - Belina

Avari Discord - https://discord.gg/Bch24PV

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7 minutes ago, soulein said:

From the perspective of a new player with no social connections and nothing to their name, getting to PvP viability is a dauntingly impossible task. On the other end of the spectrum, a brand new player going into an established guild can be fully PvP viable within a few hours. 

Guild interaction is a huge part of it, and that's something that's just as much on the community to make work as the devs. It's why I've made three separate guides aimed at teaching new players fundamental mechanics of the game and intend to keep making more. It's why in those guides I tell players they need to join a guild if they want to reach their full potential.

I'm not sure if you're arguing against the main point I made or not, but making guilds essential is not a good reason to make passives a big deal though. Making gathering more skillbased as opposed to stat-based is essentially the difference between new players interested in crafting/gathering feeling like panhandlers who are bumming gear off their guild, and someone actively working to get better who can actually improve very quickly if they focus hard on improvement. 

Passives, not so. You'll reach X point after Y time. Nothing you do can make that go faster. Read a good guide or two then hurry up and wait.

Edited by Andius

"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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My last comment today since I want to play some. However if ACE implemented it differently it would be easier for solo and lone wolf players to compete in pvp - it would benefit the game long term in my opinion. Because if it`s too hard to reach end game or craft epic items it don`t help the case which is a nich game end of the day. At least if we compare numbers to other mmos. - if it get too hard it soon feels like a second job, and we all know it`s a game and it should be fun to be part of, and not feel like a huge obstacle to reach end game content with both level & items. 

And I`ve been strict with that view here for years now based on my playing experience with UO, ESO, SB, and Darkfall, but to no help it seems, because epic math is too hard right now since it require unique tools, a guild, unity of harvesters.. 

 

Edited by mythx

MQfHl7c.png

Crowfall Game Client: https://www.crowfall.com/en/client/

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I was attracted here because of the lack of reliance on rare drop/ raid hogwash

Everything is crafted isn’t true if you need a rare drop to craft.

 

its just as bad as wow raids or EQ


www.lotd.org       pking and siege pvp since 1995

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3 minutes ago, mythx said:

My last comment today since I want to play some. However if ACE implemented it differently it would be easier for solo and lone wolf players to compete in pvp - it would benefit the game long term in my opinion. Because if it`s too hard to reach end game or craft epic items it don`t help the case which is a nich game end of the day. At least if we compare numbers to other mmos. - if it get too hard it soon feels like a second job, and we all know it`s a game and it should be fun to be part of, and not feel like a huge obstacle to reach end game content with both level & items. 

And I`ve been strict with that view here for years now based on my playing experience with UO, ESO, SB, and Darkfall, but to no help it seems, because epic math is too hard right now since it require unique tools, a guild, unity of harvesters.. 

 

They told us from the beginning that this was going to be a very social, group oriented game. They know they could appeal to a greater share of the population by reversing that, but they decided a long time ago to appeal to a niche market that is looking for something more than battleground/dungeon timers.


Shadowbane - House Avari/Hy'shen
"Gimp elves get good elves killed." - Belina

Avari Discord - https://discord.gg/Bch24PV

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Not in the very beginning @soulein - I remember when they announced their old campaign settings first, and it was before they discussed with other developers how to approach the harvesting and crafting systems with Raph Koster. I understand they decided to be a group oriented game with castle sieges, but the game itself would be more appealing if resources were easier to access for a single player without focusing on guild activities.

It`s very obvious to me that the developers who were involved in this process had a lot of crafting background like Raph, but that harvesting should be a group oriented experience is still a surprise for me since it don`t appeal to a single player experience which is strange for me in an mmo. and most start without a guild especially new players. 


MQfHl7c.png

Crowfall Game Client: https://www.crowfall.com/en/client/

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2 hours ago, soulein said:

The difference between blues and purples is negligible. 

I don't think you have a very good understanding of what "balance" considers "Meta". HoA concerns itself with approving certain classes for general play, approving certain classes/roles conditionally and avoiding certain classes and roles because they add nothing to the group/raid's strategy. Winterblades have different ideas about how to do the same thing and I have no idea what Clams or Infernal's ideas are on the subject because we don't talk to them about group comp.

 

 

Screenshot_735.png

 

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2 hours ago, PinkFluffyPanda said:

So that's make it okay for people to cry like small spoiled kids about stuff they did to each other in game

Please take this sort of thing elsewhere. You aren't going to improve the quality of the thread by making personal attacks in it.

Edited by Jah

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Just now, TheMap said:

The item an number debate could be settled fairly easy with hunger dome. 

How would Hunger Dome help with that? Loot drops were very random in Hunger Dome.


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3 hours ago, soulein said:

The difference between blues and purples is negligible. 

I don't think you have a very good understanding of what "balance" considers "Meta". HoA concerns itself with approving certain classes for general play, approving certain classes/roles conditionally and avoiding certain classes and roles because they add nothing to the group/raid's strategy. Winterblades have different ideas about how to do the same thing and I have no idea what Clams or Infernal's ideas are on the subject because we don't talk to them about group comp.

Clams are barely playing the game right now due to some recent changes that make the game too annoying to play, but we have a handful of dedicated math nerds (I'm one of them) that spends a bunch of time on TEST monkeying with numbers.  I don't think it is much a surprise that we end up running some similar stuff to Winterblades when we actually have people log in, though if I had to say one thing we definitely value more mobile lineups since we always seem to end up fighting over bane trees or in an open field vs double our numbers since we're Commando like that.

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19 minutes ago, Ble said:

I think he means that it would be easy to fight equal numbers and show gear doesnt matter by winning in whites.

Hunger Dome didn't work that way, though. There were random loot drops, and not enough of them to go around.

Edited by Jah

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1 hour ago, soulein said:

Is this somehow controversial? More PvE means there will also be more small scale PvP content available. I'm not sure why people expect they can jump in the game and jump straight into PvP and be viable.

Getting jumped at low health while fitting mobs isn’t exactly quality PvP. It’s dissatisfying no matter which side of the equation you’re on. 

Meaningful objectives should be the driving force in PvP engagements. Imo 

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8 minutes ago, oneply said:

Getting jumped at low health while fitting mobs isn’t exactly quality PvP. It’s dissatisfying no matter which side of the equation you’re on. 

Meaningful objectives should be the driving force in PvP engagements. Imo 

I don't disagree.


Shadowbane - House Avari/Hy'shen
"Gimp elves get good elves killed." - Belina

Avari Discord - https://discord.gg/Bch24PV

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Just for point of reference for all the people arguing that "gear curve is too steep" here's a screenshot of everything I had equipped for the majority of last trial campaign. Note the lack of jewelry and legendary items. On top of that, up until about the last week of the campaign I was using a basic vessel. I don't honestly remember what my score ended up as but I'm 100% certain I was in the realm of top score / kills for my faction. Try not to be to jealous of my sick weapons.

87b5900953f5ff74c267d6e6a3570b14.png

Crafter names omitted to protect the innocent. ;)

I did get some pretty sweet upgrade swords between then and now, and all my druid gear got transferred over since that class is basically dead now unless you want to roll earthkeeper. But that's another discussion for another thread.

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