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ferrat

Crowfall is not a PvP game.

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24 minutes ago, mandalore said:

First of all this is CF so we use Blair Math in these parts of the internet’s.  Secondly, is this what you do?  Go from game to game losing and crying about tyrant factions/guilds touching your no no spot?  It’s exhausting reading your post.  How do you maintain whinging across multiple forums for years? You’re outnumbered (even when you’re not), out classed and out played and you want desperately want a game where you’re not at the bottom of the server.  It’s only going to get worse in the dregs.  When we can come along and take everything you own and leave you with nothing.  How many guilds will you join and watch die?   

If i win pvp they have more than me. If i lose pvp they have more than me. Vidya game numbers are pretty easy. 

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5 minutes ago, Jah said:

When the Trials first started Chaos alone outnumbered Balance. That didn't stop some Chaos players from claiming Balance was a mega alliance that outnumbered both other factions combined. They gave ridiculous and totally fabricated numbers. I started taking screenshots of /who faction and /who zone and that quieted some but not all of them. Some kept right on lying.

I never made that claim during that campaign. What I claimed during that (my first campaign in which this problem had already been going on a long time) is there was a very small number of people on Chaos actually doing anything outside sieges and we were all new players, while Balance had the two oldest strongest guild stacked on the same faction and had all their people out capping all night long. That was all true, it was like pulling teeth to put together capping teams on Chaos, and at that point you guys were way more skilled than the average Chaos. We were getting trashed in sieges because Chaos was bad that campaign. We were getting trashed at all other times because you guys have like 90% of the tryhards in this game so it was like a few players, most of whom joined that trial, many of whom are no longer playing, doing all the contesting at most of the time other than when Chaos could bring a zerg out for sieges.

 I made the claim last campaign that we were massively outnumbered. And we were. I also made the claim we were winning many of our fights massively outnumbered and we were. Order improved dramatically in player skill during Illara.

As to the claim of the massive drift toward Balance over time. That's something I've seen some of since joining (With Infernal moving to Balance etc.) and also something that happened before I came (HoA). Also very true, very easy to verify. I presume it's something that's been going on as long as Balance has been winning. Right now the main issue is people left sure. But the overall trend of the game is more people end up on Balance, less people end up anywhere else. Both through loss AND migration.


"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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Just found this thread and wanted to mention a few things:

Org migration to 1 faction is a fact in the past few months.

That faction just happens to be winning campaigns.

The fact that some orgs on Balance keep up this facade that they have no idea why the current playtest is as rough for the community at large is disingenuous at best. 


My personal opinion is that 3 faction campaigns in the current state of the game is detrimental to not only long time members of the community but new fresh faces to the game as well. I'm all about bringing back some Hunger Dome on Live for a nice change of pace.😍 Heck while we are dreaming I'd even take game breaking bugs where organizations can stockpile 10,000's of epic materials being addressed instead of whispered in Discord. 😮🤐

We have a long way to launch. Still plenty of time for systems to change, balance passes to come, and adjustments to be made. 😎

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4 hours ago, makkon said:

5 good geared, good coordinated and with correct class setup veteran players can delete 10+ white/semi geared semi new players without any effort under guards. this is the biggest balance issue. not the numbers you are talking about all the time. numbers also matter but only if it is veteran experienced players with the same gear...

what can do 20+ with good lead you know I think. what can do those 20 with another 20 as ally you also know.

actually gear gap is abysmal. grind is crazy (for pre alpha). broken meta is mandatory (for example you like brigand but should take something else coz it is broken or underpowered). pvp without any reason with huge durability lost (which is probably dirty step from devs to remove pre fixed broken OP accessory).

grind = time. current time is not worth to be spent on.

 

ps. I still do not understand what ppl mean by "better player" in crowfall. I can understand it if they will talking about counter strike, darkfall and other skill based.

does "better" mean - more and longer hitting with harvesting tool? 😃

 

 

Completly agree. 

To the rest of you talking about who is "better" than who:

How about staying on topic instead of keep on crying to each other? 

And secondly: this game is really not that much about straight up pvp "skill", so does it really matter who of you think are better than the other? 

Get back on topic please and find some discord channel to keep the kindergarten "my dad can beat your dad" discussion going 👍

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On 5/27/2019 at 2:36 PM, ferrat said:

It is a Crafting and farming game, that happens to have a splash of pvp with no benefit/payout... 

the gear gap is huge and can not be closed via earning benefits from pvp.

the game rewards Farmers with good materials in their spirit banks and vendors. 

the game rewards you for logging in and spending points longer then someone else. this also makes you a top tier crafter??!?!?. (yes you need some pve drops too)

there is no incentive or alt progression for pvp. its just a thing you can do if you want to.. and if you want to take a fort or keep you must wait for the predesignated time so all the people that have been logging in and spending points longer then you can be prepared and waiting.

in its current state this game will be dead to hard core pvpers with in a few months of launch.. the only time pvp will be fun and balanced is after full passive wipes

quoting myself so you all remember the point of this thread..

the problems i stated have nothing to do with population imbalance... i can agree that numbers plays some role but closing the gear gap and advancements/rewards from pvp are more important. if they want to fix this game they honestly need to drop the passive system all together. unless they can state explicitly how they will balance the game for new players to even have a chance after a few months of passives. then i assert that they are just building on top of a system that is doomed to fail.. and then of course the grind for mats to make use of those passives...

so instead of bitching at each other about population, why don't you put your heads together and fill this forum with ideas on how they could remedy some of the issues around gear gap,passive point leads, and grind..

ill start, IF we had the population one way to  fix the gap would be to limit entry to a no-import campaign based on the number of points earned(not spent) in your passive tree. the problem with my idea is that it is extremely vulnerable to population issues.. which as you all have made abundantly clear, is an issue at this point.. in a way this is what i think they tried to do with gods reach, except they cant make it too lucrative(drop wise) or the people who are ahead will just come there and farm.. hence gate entry based on passive points earned.. so new players in grays will fight players in greens at best.. 

TLDR: Shutup about population, new player experience really sucks, try sharing ideas that will fix it and your population will fix it self

 

❤️

Ferrat

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1 hour ago, Andius said:

I never made that claim during that campaign.

I went back and checked and you are right. It was Duffy who said that. My bad.


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Too much PR spin is being put on "numbers" in terms of faction balance.

The only thing that really matters is how many geared, organized, META groups a faction can bring.

A stacked meta group can cut through a group 3x their size with ease especially with the current class balancing. Comparing numbers is disingenuous especially when you know the majority of your opposition don't fit into any of the 3 categories. 

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10 minutes ago, ferrat said:

...
ill start, IF we had the population one way to  fix the gap would be to limit entry to a no-import campaign based on the number of points earned(not spent) in your passive tree. the problem with my idea is that it is extremely vulnerable to population issues.. which as you all have made abundantly clear, is an issue at this point.. in a way this is what i think they tried to do with gods reach, except they cant make it too lucrative(drop wise) or the people who are ahead will just come there and farm.. hence gate entry based on passive points earned.. so new players in grays will fight players in greens at best.. 

All of these problems (passive skill lead, gear gap, enormous grind) would be immensely diminished if the devs had gone the route they promised us in the kickstarter pitch: a shallow power curve. 

I guess the discussion would then become how shallow can you make it while still maintaining the economy loop of different grade materials being desirable and fought for, while crafters being in demand. To which my answer would be certainly a lot more shallow than the poorly made socks we have atm. 

Another alternative would be to keep this gigantic gear gap and power creep but just lessen the grind considerably so it doesn't feel like pulling teeth everytime you consider joining a CW and starting the grind from scratch all over again (which is made even worse when the opposition in that campaign is already all geared up, or already have a huge lead in terms of passive skills to start with). But I vastly prefer a shallow power curve. 


 

 

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@ferrat

Removing passives altogether wouldn't hurt a thing but it would violate the basic premises they sold this game under in kickstarter. However crafting and gathering passives are friggin broken compared to combat passives. Combat passives give a neat little bonus over your rivals that won't generally determine the outcome unless it was already going to be fairly close. They're perfect how they are unless we want to just remove them altogether or make them reset at the start of each campaign (Fully in favor of campaign modes that do that BTW, I just think it would majorly piss off many in the community.)

Gathering and Crafting passives......

Compare a maxed or even 1 week gatherer (at the current 3x speed) to someone fully maxed in the trees. The difference is HUGE. And Crafting? If you aren't fully maxed in your crafting trees then you're pretty much wasting mats compared to feeding mats to the people who are.

I think gathering, they need to put a much higher emphasis on hitting crits and other activated abilities, and a much lower emphasis on bonuses from passive skills. I don't think anything should make it rain purples, but if something were to make it rain purples, it should be expert skill timing and landing every single crit as you and your guildies who are also good take down that motherload together.

In terms of crafting they need to:

A. Raise the experimentation points and pips available to someone who slots crafting discs / gears for crafting without raising the ceiling on those stats for maxed passive crafters.

B. Find a way to make crafting more player-skill (as opposed to character skill) based and move a lot of the stat bonuses we are currently getting over to high performance on the skill element, if they can find a system people won't just macro to get macro to constantly get max performance.

Essentially, make the difference in passive stats account for less of a bonus to crafting and gathering, more comparable to the level of bonus combat passives give. And if they DO still want there to be a big difference between a good gather/crafter and a bad one, base it on elements that involve player skill over character stats.


"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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31 minutes ago, ZYBAK said:

Comparing numbers is disingenuous especially when you know the majority of your opposition don't fit into any of the 3 categories. 

Refuting false claims about numbers is not the same as claiming that numbers are good measure of faction balance. I have never claimed that in any way.


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Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, Jah said:

Refuting false claims about numbers is not the same as claiming that numbers are good measure of faction balance. I have never claimed that in any way.

Haven't we established at this point that none of my numbers are made up and are actually pretty accurate? Isn't saying someone is lying when they elaborately laid out the truth and you couldn't really dispute it being dishonest?

Edited by Andius

"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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What is pvp-- cant pvp successsfully without top tier gear

Cant get top tier gear without rare wartribe drops

Cant get rare wartribe drops because you cant pvp and no one will sell them..


www.lotd.org       pking and siege pvp since 1995

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3 minutes ago, Andius said:

Haven't we established at this point that none of my numbers are made up and are actually pretty accurate? Isn't saying someone is lying when they elaborately laid out the truth and you couldn't really dispute it being dishonest?

No I still refute your original claim in this thread of a "massive drift of most of the playerbase to a single faction."


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4 minutes ago, PinkFluffyPanda said:

@Jah and @Andius can't you two find somewhere else to go and have your off topic discussion? It's kind of disrespectful towards @ferrat to turn this thread away from the original topic and in to your personal "my dad can beat your dad" contest. 

I think you misunderstand what I've said in this thread.


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On 5/27/2019 at 2:36 PM, ferrat said:

It is a Crafting and farming game, that happens to have a splash of pvp with no benefit/payout... 

the gear gap is huge and can not be closed via earning benefits from pvp.

the game rewards Farmers with good materials in their spirit banks and vendors. 

the game rewards you for logging in and spending points longer then someone else. this also makes you a top tier crafter??!?!?. (yes you need some pve drops too)

there is no incentive or alt progression for pvp. its just a thing you can do if you want to.. and if you want to take a fort or keep you must wait for the predesignated time so all the people that have been logging in and spending points longer then you can be prepared and waiting.

in its current state this game will be dead to hard core pvpers with in a few months of launch.. the only time pvp will be fun and balanced is after full passive wipes

Friendly reminder.  this game is still in the Pre-Alpha state which is merely a testing phase.  right now they are testing sieges so that is all we are doing.  In time other features will be released.  I doubt very much the currently state of the game is what the final product will look like so to say this game will be dead within months of launch is a non starter since we are literally only in pre-alpha state.  If testing is not for you than maybe wait until final wipe to play or maybe wait all the way till launch and then judge the games state at that time. :)  :)  

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On 5/27/2019 at 6:41 PM, Andius said:

they have to be seeing the fact that their community should be growing right now but is instead shrinking, and getting concerned about that.

I don't think this is accurate.  It doesn't make sense to focus growing your community with a product that is not even finished.  I think at this stage of the game they are more interesting in players willing to play the game in testing phase and give constructive feedback to help grow the game rather than an actual gaming community the type you will see when the game is fully launched.  we are in Pre-alpha after all :)  

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Posted (edited)

Gear gap in this game is a thing, and it's fairly notable once you're several campaigns deep with no wipe on full import campaigns. But I'd have to say gear is less of an issue in Crowfall than literally any "PvP" MMO I've played. Mind you most of those MMOs had terrible PvP entirely ruined by gear-gap so it's not an incredibly high bar to set but I think it's important we acknowledge that when blues are considered fully competitive multiple campaigns after a wipe and whites are considered competitive in no-import / post wipe campaigns that getting into competitive gear is much easier here than nearly any other PvP game.

I'd also refute the claim skill doesn't matter. Sure we can hit our targets drunk, in the dark as we play from a dingy in a hurricane retching everywhere because we're drunk and sea-sick, but aim isn't the only factor. Positioning, target calling, knowing your class and your skill, spotting low-health players as a healer, placing your CC wells and using them to peel, those are all skills that are a factor in Crowfall. Crowfall always said they weren't going to be make aim a major factor, they've lived up to that, and their current combat system while it needs a lot of jankiness smoothed out, still allows for skill in many other ways.

If we are going to address Gear-Gap though, the solution is:

A. Make epics and legendaries easily obtainable and sustainable for everyone.
B. Make epics and legendaries a horribly inefficient use of resources once you consider dura-loss vs. investment to the point nobody wants to run a full set regularly.
C. Create a zero importation rule set for the majority of campaigns we want to be competitive.

I'm fine with B or C. The problem is I think the sentiment by many in this community, is that legendaries should be difficult enough to acquire they are non-standard gear for new and moderate players, and easy enough to acquire that vets will be able to stay in legendaries 100% of the time, and that's literally the worst system to implement if you don't want gear gap.

 

Edited by Andius

"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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Posted (edited)

The answer to the power curve is to add more practical bonuses rather than straight up stat bonuses on everything. Doing things that impact play rather then just make a number bigger so you do more with it.

First, remove the obscene leveling required to be even slightly competent in PvP. Theres no reason for it. "Its to help people learn their class better blah blah blah" is not an argument if people play a class long enough they will figure it out. Make some method of transfering xp when making new vessles, or change the system so level 1 characters can actually be viable just with less overall options. Hell just make all Basic Starter vessels start at level 30 (or 25 if you really want to make them have some grinding to do). Basic vessels already have trash stats (what is it like +6 or +10 in all stats compared to crafted vessels?) So why not just let them start at max level so people can actually try different things out, and just have the leveling come into play with crafted vessels? Cause not many things will drive more new people away then coming into the game spending a weekend leveling a class and realizeing they dont like it and having to start all over again from scratch.

Second, add more Stuff like this (old image but i liked what it offered), stuff that isnt expressly tied to Rarity of the gear or pure stat boost but slightly augments how certain skills function. (This might also help with the always wear plate dilemma if that is still a thing since the HP nerf, if different pieces of different types of gear effected skills differently in a meaningful way. idk if the plate issue is still a thing or not anymore though). Add augments to gloves, helmets, and boots too so people can mix and match the specific bonuses they want.

9cd69f8de986001489759d9ebc8dbeae.jpg

and more horizontal options like i mentioned in the lower part of a really old post (before promotions were added) 

things that change gameplay or play style slightly. More new skill type things rather than things that expressly boost an already existing skill. Boosting skills power just feeds more into the power gap between a slightly lower level vessel and a slightly higher one, but access to new skills just give the higher level person more options and utility (and more choices for what to slot vs what not to). My thought on this is that classes should be viable with or without their promotion. Promotions should only offer different style of play + more options but dont become the backbone of what is needed to be competitive PvP wise.

Edited by ShadowwBoi13
misquote

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