Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
ferrat

Crowfall is not a PvP game.

Recommended Posts

1 minute ago, Andius said:

 


Does not compute. Maybe you misread the post you're actually responding to where I said "The fact is if someone is in legendaries and someone else is in blues the person in oranges has a notable advantage." You guys have a horrible habit of misquoting everything I say and assuming the reader can't read.

But if the difference between blues and oranges is not notable as I claimed, then your entire first quote would seem to be redundant. Why does it matter how fast someone can gear if gear has a negligible effect?

Ok, the difference between blues and legendaries isn't that great, especially when you consider the effort required to get into legendaries. The power curve shallows out as you increase in the quality levels, meaning that the more effort you put into increasing quality continuously yields fewer and fewer results. It's the same with the time invested in the skill trees. The reason why organization and cohesion are important is that the number of inputs from different harvesting and crafting professions to make all this gear requires a higher degree of planning and organization than most are familiar with. Once you have a streamlined system for gathering and crafting, the major bottleneck becomes the time required to craft each component for each piece of gear. Hopefully, quality of life improvements will make this process less tedious and time consuming.


Shadowbane - House Avari/Hy'shen
"Gimp elves get good elves killed." - Belina

Avari Discord - https://discord.gg/Bch24PV

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Andius said:

Notice I said "we" and not "I". Your dishonesty is showing again when you try to refute the claim that we got rings from you by countering I never personally got one. My bad if we only got 1. I don't follow your career that closely, I just know your build is bugged and drops rings in battle.

You boasted about getting "rings" from me even though you had merely heard of someone on your faction getting one. That is false bravado. You are also boasting about benefiting from a bug.


IhhQKY6.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Andius said:

Gear gap in this game is a thing, and it's fairly notable once you're several campaigns deep with no wipe on full import campaigns. But I'd have to say gear is less of an issue in Crowfall than literally any "PvP" MMO I've played.

Playing a certain another game and let me tell you it's everything crowfall should be minus character customization. Gear should not be the absolute deciding factor like it is in crowfall. Crowfall definitely has it beat in character customization. Character customization is awesome, it's unfortunate everything else is kinda mediocre (outside of crafting, which for the majority will become tedious and obnoxious after awhile).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Jah said:

You boasted about getting "rings" from me even though you had merely heard of someone on your faction getting one. That is false bravado. You are also boasting about benefiting from a bug.

Actually, I'm taking a dig at you for running a known bugged build when your side is criticizing us for not using "meta" builds. It's your choice to run that build knowing it's bugged. That bug was around before the last wipe and you rerolled it. Not even getting into the argument about how much better HG stats complement clerics. I think that's a pretty fair criticism. 

I used "we" and not "I" in the original post, if you're going to call that dishonesty because I didn't personally get the ring then I think it's clear who between us has a problem with the truth.


"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, izkimar said:

Playing a certain another game and let me tell you it's everything crowfall should be minus character customization. Gear should not be the absolute deciding factor like it is in crowfall. Crowfall definitely has it beat in character customization. Character customization is awesome, it's unfortunate everything else is kinda mediocre (outside of crafting, which for the majority will become tedious and obnoxious after awhile).

Gear isn't the most deciding factor in pvp, but if you bring 30 people to a fight and 20 of them are in intermediate gear while only 10 have advanced gear, you basically only have 10 people. 


Shadowbane - House Avari/Hy'shen
"Gimp elves get good elves killed." - Belina

Avari Discord - https://discord.gg/Bch24PV

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Andius said:

I used "we" and not "I" in the original post, if you're going to call that dishonesty because I didn't personally get the ring then I think it's clear who between us has a problem with the truth.

I called it dishonesty because you said rings when the truth was you'd simply heard one example of someone else getting one ring from me, due to a bug. A lame boast.


IhhQKY6.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, soulein said:

Gear isn't the most deciding factor in pvp, but if you bring 30 people to a fight and 20 of them are in intermediate gear while only 10 have advanced gear, you basically only have 10 people. 

What you just said here basically solidifies what I said. Gear is a deciding factor, especially if you can out number the opponent with less quality gear and basically be irrelevant. In comparison that other game I can be in what you would consider intermediate gear and have a very good chance of beating an opponent in what you would consider advanced. Hell, in that game you an be in basic gear and have a really good shot. Gear should be a supplement, not a defining factor and crutch like it is now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To everyone saying gear doesn't matter or the power curve is already shallow, people who have been used to running with top tier gear for the past several months or even years kinda forget exactly how big the gap is when you fight someone that has white gear, no jewelry and more recently, who didn't manage to get the right disc drops either. Or god forbid, someone who does have the colored gear, but put the wrong stats on it due to lack of knowledge. I never said gear was the most important factor, I specifically put coordination/comms and meta builds/comps first. But dismissing it is disingenuous. 

My knowledge here may be outdated, because I haven't been keeping up to date with the latest patches since february or so, but last I remember jewelry was just disgustingly broken. And blazzen's screenshot seems to confirm it still is. Everyone is dumping their purples and even legendaries into those. Armor apparently got nerfed after I stopped testing, but even so I think they went the wrong route with the nerf. They removed the health and kept the damage reduction from resists (now called armor I guess). That was backwards IMO. Basically when you factor all the stat crunching you can do with armor resist vs armor pen, on top of all the crit stats, the difference just becomes really significant in terms of damage output and defense. You'll delete their health and they'll barely scratch you. That's the power gap we're talking about. And that's not even factoring the healing stats of your support players vs theirs. The difference between white and green+ was also huge, but maybe they have fixed that already? Not sure. Discs are huge, and that's now a part of the gear grind and power gap. 

I mean, if you guys want Crowfall to be a knowledge based stats game, that's fine. It seems like that was the appeal for some in Shadowbane, stat crunching builds. I honestly think a healthy PVP game should allow for mechanical skill and game sense to make up and at least be on equal terms with stat crunching and allow for clutch plays based on individual skill alone. 

 

5 minutes ago, soulein said:

If they make the power curve any more shallow than it already is, you risk eliminating the harvester/crafter role altogether, which is exactly what the people who suggest it want to do. This would also privilege guilds and communities that have large rosters, but don't have the time or drive to invest in gearing up their characters. A large 100+ man guild could jump into the game, gear out their roster very quickly, and roll over guilds with fewer people but more cohesion. 

When you eliminate or drastically reduce (shallow out) a power curve which is already shallow to begin with (the difference between blues and legendaries isn't that great) you also drastically reduce the potential of smaller, more organized guilds to compete. 

This isn't to say that certain mob drops and activities shouldn't have their reward tables adjusted or increased, it's just that the overall push for a "more shallow power curve" would only really promote low-skill, poorly organized zergs. If all players have similar power levels, regardless of effort or organization, then it pays to cram as many of them as possible together under the same tag.

I get what you're saying, but you're only telling one side of the story. So you're saying already established and geared guilds with all the research done and spread sheets ready should have that power gap to be able to fight newcomer low skill zergs. But this sort of power creep mentality is also what keeps all other sorts of new comers from wanting to try out the game. Also the feeling I got from your post is that you're equating gear logistics and knowledge with skill and everything else as unskilled. There's a bunch of players and guilds out there with a lot of mechanical skill, game sense and good coordination that will be similarly put down with a gigantic grind wall, gear gap and until we know more about tomes, passive skill walls as well. I'm thinking here strictly in terms of long term population health. The more PVP players and guilds this game attracts, the better it is. 


 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No one cares about the rings an the petty feuds between guilds/factions at this point. We should be talking about the topic at hand instead of arguing about petty things that have no weight on the current state of the game. If you cannot separate yourself from "my guild/faction is better" than you need to step back take a look as a whole. Because in the end it won't matter what guild pounds it chest, when the only people looking upon your victory is a handful of clueless new players that have yet to reach mid/end game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, TheMap said:

We should be talking about the topic at hand

The topic at hand is that "Crowfall is not a PvP game" and that is such ridiculous hyperbole that ACE will ignore it.


IhhQKY6.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, soulein said:

Ok, the difference between blues and legendaries isn't that great, especially when you consider the effort required to get into legendaries. The power curve shallows out as you increase in the quality levels, meaning that the more effort you put into increasing quality continuously yields fewer and fewer results. It's the same with the time invested in the skill trees. The reason why organization and cohesion are important is that the number of inputs from different harvesting and crafting professions to make all this gear requires a higher degree of planning and organization than most are familiar with. Once you have a streamlined system for gathering and crafting, the major bottleneck becomes the time required to craft each component for each piece of gear. Hopefully, quality of life improvements will make this process less tedious and time consuming.

Like I said, Crowfall has less of a gear gap issue than any other PvP MMO I've ever played, but other people are complaining about the gap and it was a noticeable factor during a small number of fights in the trial of Valkyn (It is not right now.) So we seem to be in agreement on the fact the gap isn't huge. I'd disagree if you say it means nothing, but that's a pretty small difference of opinion to fight over.

Now going back to the more original suggestion I made. What I suggested is shrink the gap between fully passive trained gatherers and fresh gatherers, and replace it will greater emphasis on hitting crits and using the right skills timed properly. Obviously ideal implementation would require some more work, as they've made crits easier to hit they might have to give more of a bonus for hitting them quickly, and I think the whole system of active gathering skills would call for revision.

But the thing is, no matter how you spin it, if passives are the primary determining factor in who can gather what one group benefits the most, and another suffers. Old players benefit, new players suffer. There may be some "skill" factor in choosing the right passives during a brief period at the initial launch of the game, but eventually specialized gatherers will have all their passives maxed for their respective professions (which will go on to be multiple professions within the first couple years for day 1 players). And most people are smart enough to specialize. 

That's a "promote barrier to entry mechanic" not a "reward organization" mechanic. Making efficient gathering actually take skill (player skill) instead of thoughtlessly smashing nodes with the right passives will make it hard to just throw all your combat guys on nodes if the skillcap is appropriate, without promoting barrier to entry like broken gathering passives do.

Edited by Andius

"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, izkimar said:

What you just said here basically solidifies what I said. Gear is a deciding factor, especially if you can out number the opponent with less quality gear and basically be irrelevant. In comparison that other game I can be in what you would consider intermediate gear and have a very good chance of beating an opponent in what you would consider advanced. Hell, in that game you an be in basic gear and have a really good shot. Gear should be a supplement, not a defining factor and crutch like it is now.

Intermediate gear is one step up from naked. I'm not sure why people think they should be able to just jump into the game, show up to a fight in newbie gear and perform just as well as someone who went through the game's very shallow progression curve. Contrast this with a game like Black Desert, where no matter what you do you'll never be able beat someone who has a drastically higher gear score. 

The more accurate picture of the game's power distribution is that gear matters, skills matter, group comp matters, player skill matters and environment matters. Crowfall has a lot of bases which need to be covered, which mean there are a lot of different roles for people to take on. The trick is getting all of them to work together in concert.


Shadowbane - House Avari/Hy'shen
"Gimp elves get good elves killed." - Belina

Avari Discord - https://discord.gg/Bch24PV

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, soulein said:

If they make the power curve any more shallow than it already is, you risk eliminating the harvester/crafter role altogether, which is exactly what the people who suggest it want to do. This would also privilege guilds and communities that have large rosters, but don't have the time or drive to invest in gearing up their characters. A large 100+ man guild could jump into the game, gear out their roster very quickly, and roll over guilds with fewer people but more cohesion. 

When you eliminate or drastically reduce (shallow out) a power curve which is already shallow to begin with (the difference between blues and legendaries isn't that great) you also drastically reduce the potential of smaller, more organized guilds to compete. 

This isn't to say that certain mob drops and activities shouldn't have their reward tables adjusted or increased, it's just that the overall push for a "more shallow power curve" would only really promote low-skill, poorly organized zergs. If all players have similar power levels, regardless of effort or organization, then it pays to cram as many of them as possible together under the same tag.

 

The topic was lack of PvP content or Crowfall is not a PvP game, and why is the majority of the players focusing on Harvesting/crafting instead of PvP? @soulein. The whole topic you mention about easier to gear up a zerg or not is not even mentioned just saying. It was not hard in Darkfall with full loot system to gear up a horde of players. My point is the majority of the current player base what are they doing in a new campaign? 

Well most are harvesting & crafting, because of the progression system and how it`s implemented - a person who enjoy to win a campaign don`t care how hard it`s to gear up their allies - it`s how the game will play out so we avoid dark days of Ultima Online when harvesters get jumped too often based on lack and bored PvP focused players since most are harvesting resources in an open sandbox world like CF or UO at the time.   

Edited by mythx

MQfHl7c.png

Crowfall Game Client: https://www.crowfall.com/en/client/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Rikutatis said:

Closest thing to requiring skill CF has comes in the form of shot calling and listening to directions, but assuming both sides have equally good shot callers that don't make mistakes the whole thing is gonna be decided by who has the most meta builds and team comps first, and who has the best gear second. There's very little room for mechanical skill or individual plays in CF. 

This right here is what currently is turning me off to Crow fall PVP. Individual Skill I think makes things fun and should make a lot more difference in a pvp fight. I was really excited about this being twitch style skill based PVP, envisioned the fighting Mechanics to be akin to Smite.  Also in Smite or other MOBA's healing classes are damage first healing second and if your team comp isn't Tank, Healer, DPS then you still have possible counters that don't make healers mandatory.

I dread the possibility that PVP in this game will turn into wow style PvP or battle grounds where healers make it way to difficult to down a tank. I personally think Healers are a major problem with most RPG pvp games.

Less healing I say, divide some healing abilities into the classes. Turn healers into PvPers than can support not sustain a group.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, Andius said:

Notice I said "we" and not "I". Your dishonesty is showing again when you try to refute the claim that we got rings from you by countering I never personally got one. My bad if we only got 1. I don't follow your career that closely, I just know your build is bugged and drops rings in battle.

Congrats on admitting you're an awful person and don't return rings like literally everyone else I've encountered does?


qMEsHyg.png

www.winterblades.net

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, Jah said:

A lame boast.

You need to learn the difference between when someone is boasting about something, and criticizing you for making foolish actions. I was doing the latter if you missed the context.

The point was Balance (At least I think that guy is Balance and I'm not 100% sure what claim Allinavi is attempting to make) is making the topic relevant claim "Skill doesn't matter, only META matters."

My point is, your "META" isn't even that good. Half Giants have great stats without being lootdrop pinatas and you guys are running hamster clerics. The primary things making a difference in fights right now are:

A. When one side has a ridiculously stacked amount of players on their side.
B. Timing, positioning, and knowing your build, whether or not it's "META". 

The quality of your meta does play a factor, but neither side's meta is so clearly better that it's a major determining factor in the outcome.

Edited by Andius

"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, damebix said:

Congrats on admitting you're an awful person and don't return rings like literally everyone else I've encountered does?

As Jah pointed out, and I've confirmed multiple times. I'm not the one who got the ring. Someone else on Order did. But yeah I wouldn't have given it back either. Lol

Edited by Andius

"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Pepsie said:

This right here is what currently is turning me off to Crow fall PVP. Individual Skill I think makes things fun and should make a lot more difference in a pvp fight. I was really excited about this being twitch style skill based PVP, envisioned the fighting Mechanics to be akin to Smite.  Also in Smite or other MOBA's healing classes are damage first healing second and if your team comp isn't Tank, Healer, DPS then you still have possible counters that don't make healers mandatory.

I dread the possibility that PVP in this game will turn into wow style PvP or battle grounds where healers make it way to difficult to down a tank. I personally think Healers are a major problem with most RPG pvp games.

Less healing I say, divide some healing abilities into the classes. Turn healers into PvPers than can support not sustain a group.

Funny enough, Ashes of Creation seems to be the one with the best action combat out of the bunch, but its pvp systems are more like BDO, a mix of sandbox and battleground/flagging.  Plus it has other problems. There's a BR in Alpha called Spellbreak that has a combat system that is just begging to become a pvp MMO or at least MMO-lite style of game. Brilliant combat and tons of build customization too. Each build feels completely different from the next. I hope that game succeeds and they do another more massive game with that foundation. 

Edited by Rikutatis

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Andius said:

As Jah pointed out, and I've confirmed multiple times. I'm not the one who got the ring. Someone else on Order did. But yeah I wouldn't have given it back either. Lol

And that's the difference between you and me.


qMEsHyg.png

www.winterblades.net

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...