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PaleOne

Rare drops takes the fun out of the game. - FIX

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if i wanted to roll the dice for loot id play destiny, and i did for awhile, and when i had a 100% to get a god tier weapon i got lunas howl, and everyone who got it loved it, people who didnt have it had a goal to grind for, it made ranked pvp something to actually care about, random rewards for pvp doesnt work, and when you market your game as being completely focused on pvp you need to have clear goals, not kill 100 bosses and pray you get a demons pact, you need a boss that you can work toward that will drop what you want 100% of the time because that drives players, not rng loot, thats part of why the games dead, no one wants to grind pve in this game, there are other games that have a pve grind, that are supposed to have the grind, and do it way better


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Posted (edited)
 

@Arkade - Given this conversation has spilled into three topics I'm going to move it to one of the more relevant topics. So I'm addressing your comment that greater population sorts out RNG here.

Suppose 10 years from now, CrowFall is the most popular game on the internet. There are 30 million+ active players. J. Todd Coleman and Thomas Blaire are billionaires counting stacks and living the good life.

They launch two new campaign worlds.

The first campaign disallows all forms of vessel and gear importation and is aimed to be a small to medium sized campaign (100-500 players we'll say) with a fairly quick playtime (1 week).

The second is a full import campaign aimed to be massive with a playtime of 6 months.

Consider the implications of highly RNG drops vs. predictable drops for both campaigns. In the huge campaign, there is a very good chance you are correct, the population will sort it out if it's highly RNG. But do predictable drops hurt anything? No, in fact I'd argue even there it makes the process more enjoyable for people going out and farming for those items.

In the small campaign without imports though, I don't think the population will sort it out. The RNG has huge potential to throw off the entire pacing of the campaign if one alliance is lucky with the drops they need to take an early lead, and another is unlucky.

A very important factor to consider when the idea of many campaigns with different rulesets is a core feature. One of these two loot styles works for a far greater variety of campaigns while one does not, unless we want RNG to be important in determining who wins some campaigns.

Edited by Andius

"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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35 minutes ago, Staff said:

if i wanted to roll the dice for loot id play destiny, and i did for awhile, and when i had a 100% to get a god tier weapon i got lunas howl, and everyone who got it loved it, people who didnt have it had a goal to grind for, it made ranked pvp something to actually care about, random rewards for pvp doesnt work, and when you market your game as being completely focused on pvp you need to have clear goals, not kill 100 bosses and pray you get a demons pact, you need a boss that you can work toward that will drop what you want 100% of the time because that drives players, not rng loot, thats part of why the games dead, no one wants to grind pve in this game, there are other games that have a pve grind, that are supposed to have the grind, and do it way better

I would like this post 1000 times if possible..

I really need to hear the developers are changing this or I will find another game...

I’m tired and feel like this is a bait and switch.

if Thomas Blair and J Todd Coleman do an update and let us know it’s time to operate some of those dials, this is a placeholder etc etc  my faith could be restored ..


www.lotd.org       pking and siege pvp since 1995

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4 minutes ago, Andius said:
 

@Arkade - Given this conversation has spilled into three topics I'm going to move it to one of the more relevant topics. So I'm addressing your comment that greater population sorts out RNG here.

Suppose 10 years from now, CrowFall is the most popular game on the internet. There are 30 million+ active players. J. Todd Coleman and Thomas Blaire are billionaires counting stacks and living the good life.

They launch two new campaign worlds.

The first campaign disallows all forms of vessel and gear importation and is aimed to be a small to medium sized campaign (100-500 players we'll say) with a fairly quick playtime (1 week).

The second is a full import campaign aimed to be massive with a playtime of 6 months.

Consider the implications of highly RNG drops vs. predictable drops for both campaigns. In the huge campaign, there is a very good chance you are correct, the population will sort it out if it's highly RNG. But do predictable drops hurt anything? No, in fact I'd argue even there it makes the process more enjoyable for people going out and farming for those items.

In the small campaign without imports though, I don't think the population will sort it out. The RNG has huge potential to throw off the entire pacing of the campaign if one alliance is lucky with the drops they need to take an early lead, and another is unlucky.

A very important factor to consider when the idea of many campaigns with different rulesets is a core feature. One of these two loot styles works for a far greater variety of campaigns while one does not, unless we want RNG to be important in determining who wins some campaigns.

Very true!

Players who are  achievement oriented and have put in the work expect a reward.

Crowfall has enough random obstacles put in your way like random roving groups of balance to make boss mobs challenging and getting and keeping loot unpredictable 

 

We we don’t need  Dice rolls to do it artificially


www.lotd.org       pking and siege pvp since 1995

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1 hour ago, PaleOne said:

So oh wise one educate me— I’ve been killing bosses at all three different types of camps.

Obviously the RNG Has a little too much swing, I can kill 20-30 bosses and get 0 and he can do that...

There are group bosses and raid bosses..... maybe on them?

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8 minutes ago, Ussiah said:

There are group bosses and raid bosses..... maybe on them?

I have killed many of each.

the raid bosses take more people—

with the population as low as it is, getting a group together isn’t as easy as it use to be..


www.lotd.org       pking and siege pvp since 1995

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43 minutes ago, Andius said:
 

@Arkade - Given this conversation has spilled into three topics I'm going to move it to one of the more relevant topics. So I'm addressing your comment that greater population sorts out RNG here.

Suppose 10 years from now, CrowFall is the most popular game on the internet. There are 30 million+ active players. J. Todd Coleman and Thomas Blaire are billionaires counting stacks and living the good life.

 They launch two new campaign worlds.

The first campaign disallows all forms of vessel and gear importation and is aimed to be a small to medium sized campaign (100-500 players we'll say) with a fairly quick playtime (1 week).

The second is a full import campaign aimed to be massive with a playtime of 6 months.

Consider the implications of highly RNG drops vs. predictable drops for both campaigns. In the huge campaign, there is a very good chance you are correct, the population will sort it out if it's highly RNG. But do predictable drops hurt anything? No, in fact I'd argue even there it makes the process more enjoyable for people going out and farming for those items.

In the small campaign without imports though, I don't think the population will sort it out. The RNG has huge potential to throw off the entire pacing of the campaign if one alliance is lucky with the drops they need to take an early lead, and another is unlucky.

A very important factor to consider when the idea of many campaigns with different rulesets is a core feature. One of these two loot styles works for a far greater variety of campaigns while one does not, unless we want RNG to be important in determining who wins some campaigns.

Again, I'm not saying the numbers don't need tweaking. I'm just trying say that, big picture, it's not as bad as it seems.

Basically, drop rates aren't properly balanced yet. Neither is combat. We'll get there.

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Posted (edited)

I think overhauled is a better word than tweaked. I don't think they can create a system that will be acceptable for all campaign scenarios other than:

A. Breaking items such as minors into components that regularly drop.
B. Putting specific minors on specific hard to kill mobs with a 100% drop rate.

Either of those suggestions could work for every campaign type. But a single drop with a small drop percentage can't really be tweaked into working IMO.

Edited by Andius

"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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1 hour ago, Arkade said:

Basically, drop rates aren't properly balanced yet. Neither is combat. We'll get there.

Not unless these discussions happen as it doesn't appear the devs play the same way we do and if they do, they for some reason like the design or it would already be changed.

Even with the feedback, there is no guarantee "we'll get there." Pretty sure many of us have played games or even beta/early versions of games that had issues that persisted for years if not forever.

1 hour ago, Andius said:

I think overhauled is a better word than tweaked. I don't think they can create a system that will be acceptable for all campaign scenarios other than:

A. Breaking items such as minors into components that regularly drop.
B. Putting specific minors on specific hard to kill mobs with a 100% drop rate.

Either of those suggestions could work for every campaign type. But a single drop with a small drop percentage can't really be tweaked into working IMO.

I believe everything in the game should have an expiration date, quality tiers, sacrifice value, and multiple ways to be obtained. Drops (rare or not), vendors, sacrifice, crafting, campaign rewards, etc give many options for ACE to use but they seem to go for the most grindy un-fun options possible.

If the reasoning to having a grindy design and RNG drops is they result in powerful stuff that is permanent or lasts a while, I'd rather they do away with RNG completely or reduce it greatly and in turn increase the need to obtain new things.

Basically easy come, easy go with things progressively becoming harder to come by and harder to lose. The average for most players being closer to the middle or lower end resulting in a more accessible game experience.

I liked the original idea of shallow power curve and being able to become competitive relatively quickly/easily (at least this seemed like what ACE was promoting). With options for those that want that extra 1-5-10% advantage to be able to go for it, but it would come at a greater time/effort investment. More of "want" option, not a "need." Believe this was the plan with Passive Training as well but doesn't seem to be that way now.

Discipline should drop my Thralls that are hard to find/kill but have 100% or high drop rate. Components should drop from other mobs at differing rates depending on difficulty, but not silly low. We should be able to Sacrifice to the Gods for things in return. Everything should have a value. Used vessels should be able to be sacrificed/sold/traded as whole or individual pieces with decreased quality/value.

Unfortunate that ACE has come up with several great basic systems but then chooses to go the grindy/RNG route as the core game play.

Grinding and RNG are there to keep people logging in chasing the carrots, but it needs to balance with what we do with those carrots. 

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Well and like I said. Even if I were to say "I want to make a game that it takes FOREVER to achieve anything" I'd opt for slow yet consistent progress over large leaps in power caused by RNG.

Like the example I gave with ArcheAge. Progression was heavily tied to RNG in so many different ways in that game. And ultimately I think the reason that they did that was because they didn't want players knowing the time and investment it took to reach the top levels of play. At the point I quit for good I was in the top guild on the server I was playing, we had control over all the content, I was logging in do like 5-10 hours of high end content + top profit trading per day on like 6 accounts, making thousands of gold a night and it still felt like my gear was just crawling forward because of all the different highly expensive gear elements I had to work on.

The RNG was there to hide that huge time sink, and give people hope that "Oh hey, maybe my weapon will proc mythic on this regrade." For a few people it did. For most of them it exploded.

If you want the grind to be long, embrace, be upfront about it. Hiding longer grinds behind RNG just makes me feel like the devs are trying to pull one over on me and spike my drink with a bunch of grind.


"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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4 minutes ago, APE said:

Not unless these discussions happen as it doesn't appear the devs play the same way we do and if they do, they for some reason like the design or it would already be changed.

I don't think that's a fair assumption. Look at how combat started out and where it is now. It takes time. Drop rates have already improved since the first implementation of war tribes. I'm sure they will continue to improve. Again, it's not the design that is the problem, but the balancing of it. 

But let's talk specifics here, because just talking about this in general doesn't help them make those changes.

Tools are a problem. Goggles, hammers, etc. There needs to be a more reliable way to get these. The addition of the tools for weapon additives has completely destroyed the hunger shard economy. Not only are the tools way too rare, but they come from the same place the shards do. So anyone who might want to buy hunger shards won't have the tool they need, and anyone who has the tool won't sell it because they are too rare. Without the economy to support it, it becomes a huge grind to get the tools. The same thing happens with the 186 steps book. It's too hard to get. We end up with a bank full of runic recipes and no way to use them.

I feel like disciplines are in a pretty good place right now. At least minors and exploration discs. Majors we'll have to wait and see when they add the thralls. Yes, it can be difficult to get the specific minor discs that you want, but that's where the economy comes into play (or it would, if more people were playing). A solo player can effectively get minor and exploration disciplines, selling the ones they don't need and buying the ones they do. Some of the more popular minor discs can be added to specific mobs with a guaranteed drop to create points of conflict. Maybe the Satyr raid boss always drops Demon's Pact and the Aracoix raid boss always drops Expansive Mind. These are simple tweaks to the system that will make it much better for everyone.

Leveling is in a much better place now too thanks to increased lore drops and increased XP on lore items and sacrifice shards. Of course, they don't help with storage, but that's a different topic. I've got a ton of lore items sitting in the bank. I haven't added it all up, but it's probably more than enough to level an epic vessel to 30. I'll see once I get my vessel.

Small changes. Fix the drop rates on tools, put some guaranteed drops on the toughest mobs and let groups fight over them. It's not complicated.

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32 minutes ago, Arkade said:

I don't think that's a fair assumption. Look at how combat started out and where it is now. It takes time.

Of course it takes time and while ACE likely figures things out on their own in many instances, how are we to really know?

If our feedback wasn't so direct and negative when it came to combat, would they have changed it? Would we of had something that fit their initial vision a bit more with more use of physics, aiming, and a higher skill ceiling? No clue and we'll never know.

I don't believe the "just wait for it to work itself out" is healthy for this game's development when devs actually want our feedback. Even if we believe it might naturally work itself out, we should still provide feedback to help things along.

Skinning/Leatherworking comes to mind with them repeatedly saying it is fine despite 99% of players saying the opposite. That leads me to some assumptions.

32 minutes ago, Arkade said:

Again, it's not the design that is the problem, but the balancing of it. 

Unless their design is not to be what some might considered balanced. I don't know their vision of how particular systems or them working together should work. How many goggles should be floating around? How many should drop per hour/day/player? If the current balance is their intended design, then there is an issue with the design itself.

32 minutes ago, Arkade said:

Small changes. Fix the drop rates on tools, put some guaranteed drops on the toughest mobs and let groups fight over them. It's not complicated.

Agree this would make the situation better, but overall there are some larger improvements that would make the overall game experience better long term.

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1 hour ago, Arkade said:

I don't think that's a fair assumption. Look at how combat started out and where it is now. It takes time. Drop rates have already improved since the first implementation of war tribes. I'm sure they will continue to improve. Again, it's not the design that is the problem, but the balancing of it. 

Frankly combat plays very similar to when it first started in terms of structure and abilities, with the one major significant difference being the replacement of animation locks for free movement (which was a much welcome change, mind you). 

We're placing too much faith on the economy saving the whole thing at the end. What about no import, minimal outside contact hardcore campaigns like Dregs? I doubt the enemy alliance will be selling the minors and other stuff I need to be competitive. 

There might be a disconnect between the section of the community that want to play the economy game and the other section that want to PVP as much as possible (but still realize you need to gear up). Hopefully the devs will find a nice balance. Refineries sound like they have a lot of promise, I think RNG drops need to go as well. From what folks described what they had in Shadowbane sounded much better than this. 


 

 

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9 hours ago, PaleOne said:

In my opinion we need mobs to have set loot drops like Shadowbane Discipline droppers.

You always could find out where things dropped and go get them.

Please get rid of the RNG.

make modes drop set numbers of certain rarity based on rank.

 

I Agree i also think these mob drops should be more solo friendly. when I level or grind I like to do it solo when people log of. I want to spend peek hours pvping not pveing. To add more hurt to the group factor every time a mob dies every one in the group runs to the mob to get the loot first, I hate that.

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The only thing worse than having to farm continuously for RNG drops is watching my gear deteriorate from all the combat and death, and having to farm resources to remake my gear to be able to farm more pve bosses

 

That is right folks we have to do non pvp stuff, in order to survive more non pvp stuff, to have a chance at pvp...

 


www.lotd.org       pking and siege pvp since 1995

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5 hours ago, bignick22000 said:

I Agree i also think these mob drops should be more solo friendly. when I level or grind I like to do it solo when people log of. I want to spend peek hours pvping not pveing. To add more hurt to the group factor every time a mob dies every one in the group runs to the mob to get the loot first, I hate that.

This is another good reason to have these desired items be craftable from many mats that are more likely to be dropped. it's easier to distribute loot after a war tribe run.

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