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Worlds worth defending - Official discussion thread

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I’m glad there’s an acknowledgment that time-to-capture needs to be addressed. Hopefully this balancing comes sooner rather than later.

These utility outposts might create some interesting gameplay, especially during sieges (if they’re in siege zones), where there’ll be fights to constantly secure a respawn point throughout a seige. 


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Posted (edited)

"Right now it takes too long for small groups and not enough time for larger forces"

Something I saw someone suggest in another thread is forts should take about 10 seconds to capture. It should be like raising a flag or something. I can agree to that with the caveat that all the guards need to be dead before that flag can be raised, and some of those outposts should have a very strong guard. 

Thinking about your suggestion of a few strategic outposts that can be used as respawn points, that makes A LOT of sense. Since outposts can be captured at any time we can expect the average flow of play during sieges / fort vulnerability to go like this.

Move into a zone. Take your full force and capture the spawn point if you don't control a fort or keep in that zone already, go hit the fort.

If we are talking 3 rank 4 guards and a timer as your only obstacle to doing that, it won't be that hard. It also won't be that hard for a single cleric/paladin or some other good solo capping build to cap it behind you the moment your force moves on.

If you are talking 6-10 rank 10 guards, but an instant capture time for these, that ENTIRELY changes how fights will go down. Suddenly the defenders should be considering how many people they will leave at the fort, and maybe if they should attempt to assist their NPC guards and hold that outpost. When you do take that outpost, it's going to take a lot more commitment than having 1 person come in behind you and recap.

And a strong group of 2-3 players of an average group of 5 can still go outpost capping if we say that say the respawn outposts should be the hardest to take. I think it's good to have some outposts that will present a real fight on their own though.

 

Edited by Andius

"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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Posted (edited)
46 minutes ago, coolster50 said:

I’m glad there’s an acknowledgment that time-to-capture needs to be addressed. Hopefully this balancing comes sooner rather than later.

My main highlight from the read, I agree.

Is it too late for a suggestion? Could I perhaps suggest something different from, "kill the guards, stand in the circle"? Imagine a mini-game, or puzzle of sorts. Something as simple as three rings spaced around the statue that need to be captured at once? Obviously more complicated than that would be more fun, but I don't want to start making suggestions that make ACE see it as a fluffy timesink. 

Something to help CF start shifting away from this trend we are in lately is the only reason I pipe up here, it could still be an encounter you could balance the difficulty to capture. E.G. more rings requiring simultaneous activation, the number of which would be dependant on things like the usefulness of the spawn point geographically, or how many people are in zone when the siege timer is active.  

EDIT: More standing in rings isn't being encouraged, but something else that doesn't require climbing the gear ladder like we have now, but would be scale-able in a different way to reach the same result or barrier to the capture. This would allow a more varied host of potential capturers to partake, but wouldn't nullify the method by which people capture things now as the standard approach. 

Edited by Samulus

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1 hour ago, coolster50 said:

I’m glad there’s an acknowledgment that time-to-capture needs to be addressed.

I want to expand just slightly on this, in that there has been more action on this front behind the scenes. @blazzen and @KrakkenSmacken have actually been in quite a few conversations with us on this subject; their feedback has been extremely insightful, going as far as to run around from outpost to outpost to gather us some metrics. They've also got a great pulse on other community members' feedback, pointing out comments or well explained positions on a topic.

 

Generally, this is how things will flow for the creation or progression of any system:

1) Figuring out where we want to go (Best guess at a Fully Featured System)
2) Understanding how far we can go with our current systems (Prototype)
3) Allocating time and resources to bridge a reasonable cost/benefit gap between the two (Tech Requests)

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59 minutes ago, Andius said:

"And a strong group of 2-3 players of an average group of 5 can still go outpost capping if we say that say the respawn outposts should be the hardest to take. I think it's good to have some outposts that will present a real fight on their own though.

 

Feedback from the player base will be critical in helping to find the right balance. The new outposts will give us a great opportunity to really get some details down, and we can extrapolate from there.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, jpollard said:

Feedback from the player base will be critical in helping to find the right balance. The new outposts will give us a great opportunity to really get some details down, and we can extrapolate from there.

For sure. The TLDR for my post though is remember time to cap is one element in the difficulty of taking outposts. Difficulty of the guard fight is another. Might be cool to experiment with some outposts that offer short caps if you can win a harder fight. The fights right now are simple especially for some top notch outpost cappers like paladin templars and crusader clerics.

Edited by Andius

"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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1 hour ago, Samulus said:

Is it too late for a suggestion? Could I perhaps suggest something different from, "kill the guards, stand in the circle"? Something to help CF start shifting away from this trend we are in lately is the only reason I pipe up here...

In regards to the "trend" here, it's less a purposed "we want everything to be capture circle based" than "we sure do already have this capture circle tech we could make prototypes with".

If we broke the capture tech into two (very oversimplified) parts, we'd have Trigger Tech > Area Claiming Tech.

Trigger Tech here would be:

  • Claim Circles - Forts/Outposts
  • Buildable Claim Objects - Tree of Life Keeps
  • Triple Claim Circles - From your example

So we'd need to build out some new tech for additional triggers. But for significantly less tech cost, we can get out a prototype that will let us start getting feedback on a large portion of the systems design, regardless of what that trigger system is. Don't worry too much though, some of that prototyping time and discussion mentioned in the article was spent along these lines.

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20 minutes ago, Andius said:

The fights right now are simple especially for some top notch outpost cappers like paladin templars and crusader clerics.

I would love to here more direct feedback about "encounters" that players feel polarized opinions on.

"My buddy and I had a great time fighting this 3 pack of R6 Wolves. I think that the dynamic of buffing each other as a pack made things more interesting"

"I easy mode solo'd the R4 campfire outpost. It would be more worthwhile and engaging if x, y, z"

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@jpollard Has there been any discussion about having outposts and POIs in general having impact on players themselves and land control?

I've played other games that award bonuses in various forms for capturing POI and being near them or in the same zone.

Ex: Capture an outpost near a War Tribe and get a experience or loot drop bonus.

Capture an outpost near motherlodes, gain a harvesting bonus.

Capture all the POIs on a map or near a Stronghold and gain upgraded guards and defensive bonuses for players that control the Stronghold. If an enemy controls a Stronghold, capturing most or all outposts could provide an attacker advantage or decrease in wall/guard strength.

This goes into land control as well.

A lattice/network system where to capture any POI, connected POI must be captured as well or doing so makes the capture easier (less time standing in circles, less/weaker guards).

I believe the spawn POI is a great idea, but there are a lot more possibilities that could encourage just about everyone to get out there and participate depending on what they like to do.

These types of things also encourage/reward organized play that might help split larger forces and increase the potential for strategy for groups of varying sizes.

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7 minutes ago, jpollard said:

I would love to here more direct feedback about "encounters" that players feel polarized opinions on.

"My buddy and I had a great time fighting this 3 pack of R6 Wolves. I think that the dynamic of buffing each other as a pack made things more interesting"

"I easy mode solo'd the R4 campfire outpost. It would be more worthwhile and engaging if x, y, z"

Templar wartribe bosses are a pain in the ass because of the frequency they drop their healing circle and the amount of healing they get from it.

In reference to your "splitting the capture mechanic into trigger and capture" - killing all the guards would be a better trigger than standing in the circle.  It would let you make outpost guards less pathetic, too.

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15 hours ago, APE said:

@jpollard Has there been any discussion about having outposts and POIs in general having impact on players themselves and land control?

One of the things I love most about my time here is how open the team is able to be with the outside world, especially the player base. However, I do still have to walk a fine line between "making promises" and transparent discussion.

That said, while I can't confirm the living/dead status of any particular point, I'm pretty sure I've been part of a discussion on almost every topic you laid out at one point or another.

I'd really like it if we could expand the discussion of how placement in relation to other nearby features and POIs would be useful, and the scenarios the community would find enjoyable if that were the case.

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13 minutes ago, APE said:

A lattice/network system where to capture any POI, connected POI must be captured as well or doing so makes the capture easier (less time standing in circles, less/weaker guards).

Something like this would be cool


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13 minutes ago, Durenthal said:

Templar wartribe bosses are a pain in the ass because of the frequency they drop their healing circle and the amount of healing they get from it.

If you would, please clarify for me if you meant this in a positive or negative manner

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20 minutes ago, Durenthal said:

Templar wartribe bosses are a pain in the ass because of the frequency they drop their healing circle and the amount of healing they get from it.

In reference to your "splitting the capture mechanic into trigger and capture" - killing all the guards would be a better trigger than standing in the circle.  It would let you make outpost guards less pathetic, too.

druid boss is a pain too, didnt have any trouble until he got to about 1/3 health then started healing after every other attack with some self heal that druids dont have 


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2 minutes ago, Durenthal said:

In reference to your "splitting the capture mechanic into trigger and capture" - killing all the guards would be a better trigger than standing in the circle.  It would let you make outpost guards less pathetic, too.

I think killing the guards, knock down the flag, then plant your own would be the best. Killing the guards and knocking down the flag turns the outpost neutral, and then planting your own would cap it for your faction (and auto respawn the guards). I think you could do it through the hippo system you already have and just have the hippo take the standing banners stonemasons can make (those would also have to be craft able in the CW, since they’re EK only at the moment). So basically, any old Joe can decap, but you’d need to spend some resources to capture (standing banners are relatively cheap to make, so I don’t think the cost is too high for a random joe to make a couple banners and go capping). Just my 2 cents.

 

8 minutes ago, jpollard said:

I'd really like it if we could expand the discussion of how placement in relation toother nearby features and POIs would be useful, and the scenarios the community would find enjoyable if that were the case.

It’d be great if outposts were near harvest spots or high rank mobs (points of interest, basically), it would allow for solo/duo players to have a spot to fall back to and (hopefully) provide limited protection from solo roamers. Right now, any guard below rank 6 are complete pushovers (especially for groups of players) and have no real value.

The current placement is probably fine (exceptions being some outposts are side-by-side). I also dislike outposts being out in the boonies where there’s nothing, but that’s probably more of the randomizer not putting anything of interest there than it being an issue with outposts, per se


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13 minutes ago, jpollard said:

If you would, please clarify for me if you meant this in a positive or negative manner

More negative than positive. Templars (and Druid) group and raid bosses like to spam their powers, like divine light and healing rain, so it basically is a dps race to kill them.

 

I also dislike how these mobs have up to 5 different gap closers and spam them when we’re 6+ meters away from them. The aracoix ones are especially annoying because they will always hit you, even if you’ve LoS’d them. It’s also annoying that the Minotaur racial frontal stun immunity doesn’t work on those, but that’s a different issue


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16 minutes ago, jpollard said:

If you would, please clarify for me if you meant this in a positive or negative manner

Mostly negative.  Wartribe mobs have no cooldown on their powers, so they use them back to back to back.  It feels like a bug.

Challenging group and "raid" bosses would be fun, but they should be challenging because of neat mechanics, not because they are constantly spamming their class powers.

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i would personally get rid of all the resource node in front of keeps. Right now everything you need expect leather is in front of keeps. We harvest in front of keeps we don't even own.

If resources were placed around forts then people would fight to take over the fort for a resource harvesting spot. People would be using the forts for harvesting area and would actually be around the forts to actively defend them. With the change to banking forts would be a great place to go. Since you will have protection from the cats. Since currently the one harvesting is only person with something to lose. The guards would give them protection a extra incentive to take the fort. Yes you wont get much material from killing someone since a bank so near. But at least you beadle to take over there harvesting location.

For how much everyone wants the rank 10 resources it doesnt seem we really fight over areas to control them. If stuff was in front of forts instead of keeps smaller groups could then fight over locations. You would feel you defended your harvesting spot or lost your harvesting spot. 

So you could have forts with mostly ore, some with lots of stone or wood. Stretch it out. Unlike now you go to one keep for all your resources needs.

 

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