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Worlds worth defending - Official discussion thread

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1 hour ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

If -W- is camping the iron mother loads, and HoA is camping the Granite, it's time to head to the forest and skin cats, or maybe head to the graves and dig bodies.  -W- and HoA will not be at those locations forever, so waiting for a more quiet time at specific locations is an option.

War camps have generated some conflict, mostly because they are where a very specific, required, and only available periodically resource (runes and tools) can be found. 

Thanks for pointing out the dichotomy here, especially since they are causing two distinct player behaviors.

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1 hour ago, PopeUrban said:

I didn't take a small guild to a game with worlds that end to be fighting with and against the same people every time the world ends and be told what to do by allies I never wanted in the first place. I came to play factions because I like the chaos and unpredictability a combination of unknown allies, unknown enemies, and unknown terrain it promises.

I'm not fully equipped or in a position to comment on all of your concerns here, but I want you to know I've read them and will discuss with others as I can. A lot of information here, thank you.

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9 minutes ago, jpollard said:

Thanks for pointing out the dichotomy here, especially since they are causing two distinct player behaviors.

players will always migrate to the easiest, most efficient path. If folks are trying to harvest/craft, then you can pretty much expect they will try and avoid all pvp since it lowers their efficiency towards current goal. Relying on resource conflict to drive pvp will not work. We need tangible reasons to have conflict, not arbitrary points. We also need much less PvE grind in order to PvP. If more grind is your goal, please simply say that.

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56 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

In addition: Make those scoreboard actions valuable to every player, not just the minority of players that accupt the top 30/20/10% of the scoreboard.

FOEX has always played balance. We had a really good alliance join balance at the beginning of the trials. After three days of playing my heart out and seeing the players in those alliances ear 10 points for every 5 I earn, the fact that the finish line for that gold medal is moving away from me further than I can catch it is obvious. At that point I don't care about points because:

A: I'm already going to win

and

B: I'm not going to get the only other reason to take them - The gold Medal.

 

If in stead your metrics for medals and other such rewards were "Gain a bronze for showing up, a silver for gaining X points, and a gold for gaining Y points" I'd be encouraged to chase those goals regardless of what my allies are doing.

If you're worried people will stop competing after they hit those benchmarks you THEN ask yourself "are the rewards for winning the campaign compelling enough" and forget about the scoreboard entirely.

Talk to me (gently please) about your thoughts on what an ideal scoreboard would be. Or do you just dislike the concept altogether?

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6 minutes ago, mystafyi said:

We need tangible reasons to have conflict, not arbitrary points. 

Just want to clarify if you mean that you don't like the captured territory Victory Points system or the flip side of the coin which is the tangible reward distributed from the points data?

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1 minute ago, jpollard said:

Talk to me (gently please) about your thoughts on what an ideal scoreboard would be. Or do you just dislike the concept altogether?

 I dislike the concept of competing to score rewards in faction campaigns specifically.

Factions exist to, and have had multiple adjustments made to prevent your allies from impeding you because you can't control who they are or what they do.

It's why we can't steal allied doobers any more for instance.

Rewarding scoreboard position is designed, purposely, for a minority of those allies to impede the potential rewards of their allies and by doing so necessarily creates competition with those allies.

I should always be happy to see my allies on a faction server. Because of this system I don't view those allies as friends I want to help. I view them ad competition I want to impede for my own gain.

It's a fine system for dregs as it serves as an organizational stressor that must balance reward potential against the benefit of having massive alliances.

It's a bad one for factions because I have no agency to react to an ever-moving score target, and it sends the message that some people are just more important than others in a game mode where player hierarchies are supposed to be nonexistent.

I should always be happy to see allies capturing things and killing enemies because I'm stuck with them for the entire campaign.

If I'm in percent 31 of the scoreboard I'm not. If I'm in percent 5 I'm really not.

It severely damages the "team spirit" of a campaign type with the task of giving people that don't know each other a sense of community and camaraderie for the duration of their time together.

The people at the top of my scoreboard aren't people I want to come save me. They're not an elite force cavalry that rides in and fills me with glee like they should be.

They're people that I wish would go away every time I see them because they're getting in my way.

That's a bad feeling to have in a faction campaign.

Does that make sense?


PopeSigGIF.gif

Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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6 minutes ago, jpollard said:

Just want to clarify if you mean that you don't like the captured territory Victory Points system or the flip side of the coin which is the tangible reward distributed from the points data?

I would rather gain some sort of tangible reward for owning territory instead of some arbitrary points. While I would prefer having outpost/fort/keeps somehow linked creating a territory system, but I think that is off the table. Perhaps a buff of some sort while in that parcel or something along that line. 

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, jpollard said:

Play with that a bit for me.

Well, I think you guys were on to something with the buying guards thing. But ultimately there were a lot of serious problems that I think came from the way you implemented it. People were making rounds killing off guards, people like me were tanking through guard damage to turn them into our guards etc.

I think if you went back to the system of buying guards and then:

A. Make guards respawn once purchased.
B. Wipe guards when a holding is captured.

That would address every problem you had with it other than the high costs, and you've since made gold easier to acquire so that's already been fixed. With guards respawning until a holding flips you can't kill of guards for good without flipping the holding. And they still do need to be repurchased after a flip which is where the buying guards aspect would come back into play.

So if you went with that system, then you could make it so that players can select a guards class when upgrading it from rank 5 to rank 6. Nobody is going to use spies to select guard types if guards are purchased, and the selection of class is part of purchasing them.

Edited by Andius

"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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Posted (edited)

@jpollard New game types should fix a lot of the scoring issues you see. The majority of us are only on Faction because it is the only option in LIVE atm. Dregs gametype will take most of your hardcore base, and the "play to crush" crowed over there. Leaving Factions to be the step above GR in getting acclimated to the game.

Lots of us don't expect more from Factions, because it is what it is, you have allies you may not want, and no control over internal competion. It's also not what's bringing a lot of us to the game.

Although it could stand to give you a combat/capture score, crafting score, and harvest score to have various ways to reach top of leaderboards. I'm big into seeing individual efforts weigh into the success of the overall group, however large or small that base may be.

Edited by Allinavi

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Posted (edited)

 @jpollard

Has there been any talks of making maps REACTIVE.

A current issue with this map is it is too big for the population.

Would it be possible for the map(or atleast accessible maps/areas) to be small at CW start and for more areas/runegates to open based on population, season, or other actions?

Like map starts as 1 keep and 3 adventure zones and more keeps/adventure zones appear.

 

This could make the game/maps become more interesting especially if other triggers were created for special zones.

Edited by Ussiah

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Posted (edited)

Hello, it's been awhile since I have tried the game or posted in the forums. At 5.9 there were some massive changes and it was really enjoyable to play. But it faded once I felt like I wasn't having any impact or development in the game. More often I would run around looking for pvp and be dissapointed with empty inventories (likely due to spirit banks) when I did find someone.  I keep up with the news but it doesn't look like there has been many changes, and all these war stories just seem repetitive (x is underpowered, x tactically defeats y and z and captures a keep). I guess I was hoping that this game was going to be more shadowbane, but it doesn't have the same sandbox (organic) feel. 

Edited by ilogos

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Posted (edited)
On 5/31/2019 at 11:57 AM, jpollard said:

These are great examples, and I've thrown them into the team chat! How would you feel about writing out an example of a general progression of events from a typical encounter/adventure that you'd expect for each?

 

On 5/31/2019 at 9:58 AM, Sloppy said:

Suggestion for OUTPOSTS!!

Tie the group bosses and raid bosses to the new outpost mechanic.

Use the current siege schedule to control outposts going live.  Each one should go live 2-3 times a day.

Move the outposts into the wartribe camps.  Whoever gets the final blow on the group boss takes control of the outpost.  (In the future replace the final hit mechanic with one in where people must take an artifact off the corpse and run it to the nearest fort) 

Rewards - Group boss drops an inventory of loot equal to current raid bosses.  Players may now ressurect at the outpost.  Killing trash mobs in an outpost you own gives double XP and double loot.

 

Suggestion for FORTS!!

Each fort is surrounded by 2-5 outposts.  Once all the outposts for a fort are flipped to another faction, the siege for the fort begins with one of the current raid bosses spawning in the throne room.

If the raid boss is killed than the fort is taken.  (Same last hit mechanic as the outposts, to be replaced with transporting an artifact to a keep.)  It will take many hours for someone to take enough outposts to make the fort go live again.  The raid boss disapears and the fort defended when the current fort holder re-takes an outpost.

Rewards - Raid boss drops an inventory of loot equal to 5 current raid bosses.  Players may now ressurect at the outpost.  Killing trash mobs in an outpost you own tied to the fort gives triple XP and triple loot.  A portal from the temple opens up into the fort and stays live until the raid boss spawns.

Suggestions for Keeps!!

Scale it up so at any point if all the forts tied to a keep are taken by an enemy (faction, guild, religion etc..) it will trigger a keep siege that evening.

Options - Toss 1 to 5 raid bosses in the throne room to defend... Force people to hire them... Put even more loot on them...

 

Encounter 1.  Starting the day.

Sloppy logs in, no one is around so he starts the day solo on his level 25 purple body.

Balance holds the entire map, so he decides to take something so he can get a harvesting bonus somewhere.

He knows that in this campaign, in Halychyna there's 10 outposts, and 2 forts.  Telshire fort in bound to the outpost at the spider valley, the zombie valley, and 3 of the wildtribe camps.

Sloppy is a miner, and since they removed all the rank 10 nodes from the keeps he knows the best place to find high level ore nodes is where the zombies are.  But he wants to get the bonus before he mines.  He also hopes that if enough guildmates login he can take that fort for an even greater bonus.

He checks the siege schedule and sees that 2 of the wild tribe camps are live now, a wild tribe and zombie camp are live the next hour, and the spiders in 2 hours.

He heads to the first wildtribe camp which is rank 9 urgu. He works his way to the group boss  which he knows he can solo.  (Same as the current group bosses).  It takes him about 5 minutes to solo it.  He grabs the loot off it, which is equivalent to the current raid bosses.  There's also a bane seed that will weaken the shield of protection on Telshire fort.

He runs the artifact back to the fort and plants it anywhere in the forts territory.  One seed being planted knocks out the ability for balance to use a portal to get to the fort.

As he's heading for the rank 10 aracoix camp, dolmar logs in and asks what sloppy is doing.  "I'm flipping camps for Telshire", says Sloppy.

So they head out together, to the other camp.  When they arrive there's a balance druid there.  He must have guessed what was happening.  But he fears the Sloppy and Dolmar, so he runs off.  Sloppy loots the group boss and they run the seed off to plant.

15 minutes later the zombie camp and the other wild tribe camp goes live.  3 balance are farming the rank 10 zombies at the end of valley and hitting the nodes.  They are getting 3x's Xp and also a 25% damage bonus on the ore nodes (2x's for controlling the fort and 3x's because they also own the controlling keep) .  The group boss in flagged balance so only chaos or order can kill it.  But balance can protect it, and use it as a weapon in the upcoming attack.

Sloppy and Dolmar arrive and fight an epic battle against the 3 balance and the group boss.  They kill one, and the group boss and grab the seed.  They run it towards the fort, but the 2 remaining balance dog them the whole way.  They finally get the seed planted and balance runs into the fort for safety.

The forces grow again.  This time 6 uxa head off to get the 4th camp.  It's a 20 minute battle against the 4 balance and the group boss.  uxa was able to res at the zombie camp because the 3 seeds on the fort gave them that right, so were finally able to wear the balance out and kill the guard, take the seed and run back to the fort to plant it.

The hour turns over and the final piece that Chaos needs is the spider boss.  There's 10 chaos now ready to head out, but they know there will be a fight because they sent a scout and saw about 10 balance hanging out killing the rank 10 spiders beside the spider queen.  They're also farming the r10 stone nodes there while they wait.

Encounter 2a - Chaos loses the big fight, and balance manages to save the spider queen and protect her for the rest of the hour.  The next hour one of the original camps spawns a chaos group boss.  Balance kills it, and grabs the special poison off the boss.  They run back to the fort and pour the poison on the ground killing one of chaos's seeds.

Encounter 2b - Chaos wins the fight.  They prepare for the fort siege which they just triggered.  It starts at the top of the hour.

 They win the fort siege by killing all the balance and the raid boss.

They take the raid boss bane seeds and plant it at the keep.

They know if they can flip the other fort in the zone there will be a keep siege that night.  Lucky for them some solo dudes in another clan just finished planting the 5th seed on the other fort.

So it goes live and they take that one as well and plant the seed at the keep, which triggers a siege that night.  The group bosses stop spawning in Halychyna, and the outposts are removed from the vulnerable list until after the siege.

The keep siege works exactly as it does now.  The bane seeds are planted.

Encounter 3 -  Chaos has won the keep.  They get some perks.

3X XP.  30% extra damage on resource nodes.  A portal from the temple to the keep.  Solo players can now hit motherloads in chaos controlled territory under that keeps umbrella.

Edited by Sloppy

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Posted (edited)

Little late: 

A freely captutable respawn point has a strong chance to negate the positive effects of the respawn changes. Currently it requires some prepping and staging work to maximize the respawn situation for a siege (tho a few forts overlap with their siege timer which is bad imo). This results in a couple positive factors: fort control now matters, incoming siege indicators allow some scheduling potential, and devaluing number advantages.

By allowing freely captured respawns outposts/camps you negate almost every positive change the respawn mechanics have created for large organized PvP. Forts once again don’t matter for sieges, any area is now as good as the next for an attack, and most importantly numbers once again become a stronger factor for a siege as they are more likely to be able to control a respawn point.

While there are some corner cases where it could work out interestingly, it’s far more likely to fall into the typical scenario where any force that can leave their defenses to win an open battle over a respawn point didn’t really need to “defend” their fortifications in the first place. (Much like we see at banetrees today) This creates the effect where any numerically superior attacker is free to attack when and where with no pre siege preparation, skewing force projection limitations and tipping siege back towards a blantant superior numbers advantage.

 

Edited by Duffy

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