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Posted (edited)

There's a ton of crying right now about how players can't find this important thing, can't make that, and don't want to grind on this that or the other. We need a working economy so that players can sell what they don't want or need, and buy what they do.

Before that can happen, gold needs value. Gold needs to have enough inherent value that we'll trade away dust for it, we'll trade away embers for it, we'll trade away vessels, weapons, armor, and disciplines to our hated enemy if they'll give us enough of their gold.

Gold needs to be easy enough to get that newer players in moderate gear can get it, but it should not be easier for organized high end players to get more gold from high end content. Organized players focusing on high end content should be getting the stuff we want to buy, or parts that become the stuff we want to buy; and they need to want to sell that stuff to get gold.

Where is that underlying value for gold going to come from? Not from weapon molds and basic discs from vendors. If there's no plan to give real value to gold, then gold should be eliminated, dust should become the vendor currency, and alchemy should allow bi-directional conversion between dust and embers at a loss.

Edited by VaMei

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I liked it when gold was effective for leveling vessels of any quality to 30. That seemed like a pretty good backing for the value of gold.


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3 minutes ago, Jah said:

I liked it when gold was effective for leveling vessels of any quality to 30. That seemed like a pretty good backing for the value of gold.

The cauldron wasn't a bad starting baseline value, but I'm looking for an even higher value for gold than 1xp. We should want to sell sacrifice items to players for their gold, rather than just having them throw their gold in the fire.

IMO, the cauldron should be the last line against inflation, not the baseline.

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I'd certainly like to see additional uses for gold. I mention sacrifice value because we already had it, and it seemed to work to ensure gold had some base value to just about everyone.

I still expect we will see more types of gold upkeep, along the lines of the vendor upkeep. One example is the guards that cost gold, which was removed, but I suspect that is temporary until they can make that system work better.

I could also see gold involved in upgrading outposts, forts, and keeps to include additional functions.


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Posted (edited)

I would very much like to see all campaign exports require a good amount of gold.

This is beneficial for several reasons:

1. It gives gold inherent value to all players.

2. It prevents runaway inflation since most gold will be spent at the end of each campaign.

3. It allows various campaigns to experiment with changing export costs and gold availability until a sweet spot is found.

4. With exports no longer being a fixed number per account, it makes it so that buying more accounts no longer reeks of P2W.

5. There can exist special campaigns where legendaries drop more frequently, or crafted items get additional experimenting bonuses, but exports from those campaign require a huuuuge amount of gold.

Edited by Tiberius_Invictus
Nixed idea of gold itslef not being exportable

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i have been trying to purchase rare items for two weeks... no one will accept gold as a currency-- only dust and embers.

Bring back gold leveling.


www.lotd.org       pking and siege pvp since 1995

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Posted (edited)

The only value of gold for me is to buy milk and water... thats it.

 

Gold needs to have value.  The devaluing of gold was a huge mistake.  Gold leveling should be a thing.  Thats the only way to make sure it states an important trade currency.

@thomasblair destroyed player based market economy with current gold situation.

 

Dust/Embers have value, but I cannot set a buyout price at my merchant for dust embers.  I cannot sell things for gold because gold is worthless to me.  What a waste.

Edited by Ble

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If only this was the only thing wrong with this current patch. what they have done just to the gold coins is a joke. Made it more or less useless. Most of this current patch is a joke.


 

"tell the world that it is the will of the gods that my Rome be head of all the world."

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Once they start to add taxes and keep upgrades with gold it will start to have more value. However just like a lot of other things in this Pre-Alpha things have value things lose it value very quickly. Things are added that are useful  things are added that not
I feel gold was a large crutch for leveling and gave it a value that did not make any sense with the value they were charging for items in the vendors they had. Makes sense in my mind that they take it out while they re-work item value and get that down pat. 
For the leveling part of the gold its good to take it out so they can get feed back from other items they are adding for leveling to see if its worth the cost of gaining xp for what you put into farming it.


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even if guards/upkeep costs gold i dont think anyone wants to waste it in faction campaigns. now if its dregs than a guild will most def want the gold for their resources to survive

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They need to bring back the gold for leveling, all the voices are crying for less leveling grind and they take away the gold. Why would you do this. My main reason for selling crafted items was to get gold to sacrifice for leveling. Gold sacrifice is a HUGE bring it back for all levels and vessels.

 

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On 6/5/2019 at 1:39 PM, yianni said:

even if guards/upkeep costs gold i dont think anyone wants to waste it in faction campaigns. now if its dregs than a guild will most def want the gold for their resources to survive

Correct. This is why  guards and upkeep costs as the baseline sink for gold is unusable. Dregs definitely needs these costs, but, like everything else in dregs, those systems need to be an additional complexity on a system that is already functional in factions, as the game's economy must cross campaign types. Its fairly trivial to ensure that more gold drops in dregs if needed to offset the higher amount of gold needed to pay structure costs.

The baseline gold sink needs to work across the game, which includes factions. This means it has to be an entirely non-optional sink which every player must interact with either directly or indirectly. As faction players have no personal stakes in pois, they can't be used as the backing for a gold sink. We saw how that goes. Rich people will try to subsidize it until they realize nobody else wants to throw in, then they'll also quit. The same is true for EKs. Because EKs are optional, adding primary gold sinks there will just encourage people to ignore them because they're too much of a hassle.

This means any given gold sink must touch either the embargo system or equipment. I've long been an advocate of reworking items to have much lower max durability and implementing a gold based repair system with limited number of repairs.

Ideally this would make items last slightly longer (but all told not much longer than now) require everyone to interact with and have a need for gold, and give crafters a new metric (repair cost) that's actually much more attractive to customers than the lackluster durability roll. If base repair costs scale based on item quality, this also creates an attractive vector for people to choose lower quality gear beyond resource availability and ensures that gear is more about living within your means than constantly feeling broke.

The only way to short this system out would be to never repair items, which would mean never using crafted items. If that's you, you're probably farming for dropped gear a lot. One would reason that leaves you with a bunch of money to spend that other people actually want, and that you'd eventually look at that pile and go "well I can afford some crafted stuff and I'm not doing anything else with this gold"


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On 6/19/2019 at 11:44 PM, bignick22000 said:

They need to bring back the gold for leveling, all the voices are crying for less leveling grind and they take away the gold. Why would you do this. My main reason for selling crafted items was to get gold to sacrifice for leveling. Gold sacrifice is a HUGE bring it back for all levels and vessels.

 

I'm not against it, but gold for leveling alone would only temporarily fix the gold economy.

Its great as a supplementary sink, especially if gold already has value for something else, but as the only sink we've seen that it doesn't work well. If sacrificing is the only gold sink, your need for gold vanishes the moment you've finished leveling your vessels and we end up back where we started, with a bunch of gold nobody wants to take as payment for anything. We've been in that situation before, and it still resulted in shops with garbage for newbies and people only using dust or embers for serious trades. It just took a couple months after a wipe to get there.

If gold sacrifice works in a functioning economy (like the repairs or exports suggestion) gold becomes more fluid. You can dump it for XP early on, but you do so at the cost of other utility that's equally important, however if you're just trying to level you might not care about its other functions so there's a nice choice between sinks there, and both of them feel valuable to spend it on.

Edited by PopeUrban

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3 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

I'm not against it, but gold for leveling alone would only temporarily fix

 

I'm completely OK with multiple and redundant "temporary fixes" in alpha, nowutImean?

 

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2 hours ago, Ble said:

I'm completely OK with multiple and redundant "temporary fixes" in alpha, nowutImean?

 

When the topic of conversation is "how do we make gold have value" if the only option is "lets complain about this same problem in three months" it scarcely seems worth the effort.

Every solution, even "in an alpha" that pastes over long term problems with doomed short term solutions is another reason to delay implementation of the actual solution and creates a less than useful test state that feels like the rug is getting pulled when the real system goes online.

I'd rather have a non-working economy than one that only works if we wipe every few months just for the sake of keeping a broken economy running for the same reason I'd rather have no discipline crafting until the actual final drop method and loot tables meant for discipline crafting are implemented.

It just creates a bunch of noise and feedback that is ultimately not useful in the end, eats up the entire narrative among testers, and IMO actively hampers progress to softlaunch by having us all focus on the balance of stuff that doesn't matter in the end anyway.

As we've seen with disciplines, when the state of the game is balanced atop a bunch of temporary systems, the moment you replace a temporary system the entire house of cards can come tumbling down alarmingly quickly. The more we implement 'temporary" fixes, the more likely we are to just get these situations. I'd argue we would have been far better off if we had literally just skipped disciplines altogether until their entire planned crafting chain was ready the same way we'll be far better off if we fix gold value first, and then add all the extra fluff that depends on gold having value. We wouldn't care about this issue if merchants hadn't been given priority over people actually wanting gold.

If the economy is an issue now, I'd prefer it become a real, finalized development priority now rather than build more things (factories, dregs taxes, etc.) atop a shaky foundation that will inevitably collapse because nobody thought to prioritize the implementation of base systems before implementing the things those systems feed.

I'd rather not have another "rip the bandaid off" situation again when it can be handily avoided by simply taking the time to push the boring foundation systems ahead of the more exciting systems that depend on them.


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The economy will never really take off until all the relevant systems are in place to make it happens.  To name one very specific example.  Buy orders.  The effort to find someone to buy my wears is to rough right now for me to even bother.  The value of gold is the least of our concerns until the actual systems ( and not temporary ones) are fully in place to facilitate it....  That being said once all systems are in place I would gladly accept gold in exchange for my wears whether others value it or not.    :)  

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9 minutes ago, Kianna_RuneMaker said:

The economy will never really take off until all the relevant systems are in place to make it happens.  To name one very specific example.  Buy orders.  The effort to find someone to buy my wears is to rough right now for me to even bother.  The value of gold is the least of our concerns until the actual systems ( and not temporary ones) are fully in place to facilitate it....  That being said once all systems are in place I would gladly accept gold in exchange for my wears whether others value it or not.    :)  

Disagree. You could implement buy orders on vendors right now and it wouldn't matter as nobody wants your gold.

Making gold something people want is more important than giving people more ways to trade it. Otherwise you may as well be giving people buy orders that only pay knotwood for all the good they'll do you.


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The point would be that gold would have value right now, and it would kickstart the economy because we'd have a currency with value with which to trade.  Who cares it if has value for a different reason some other day.  LoL... just needs to have value.  Example: Right now its valuable because its used for leveling, dregs comes out, that goes away, but paying guards or buying grey mats to make your keep gives it value.  Doesn't matter whats backing it, it just needs value.  Economy is part of this game.  They have vendors and vendor stalls and EKs etc.  In order for economy to flourish you'll need a currency on which there is a base value agreed upon by all members of the market.  If not, you're left to only bartering and you can see right now how horribly that works.

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Just now, Ble said:

The point would be that gold would have value right now, and it would kickstart the economy because we'd have a currency with value with which to trade.  Who cares it if has value for a different reason some other day.  LoL... just needs to have value.  Example: Right now its valuable because its used for leveling, dregs comes out, that goes away, but paying guards or buying grey mats to make your keep gives it value.  Doesn't matter whats backing it, it just needs value.  Economy is part of this game.  They have vendors and vendor stalls and EKs etc.  In order for economy to flourish you'll need a currency on which there is a base value agreed upon by all members of the market.  If not, you're left to only bartering and you can see right now how horribly that works.

Gold having value literally does not do a thing related to getting us closer to softlaunch unless the context for that value is akin to its context in the final product.

Having zero working economy is just as close to a finalized system as having an economy that does not resemble the final system just to make you feel better about logging in and farming.

I'd rather get closer to launch than make gold coins in alpha.


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5 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

Gold having value literally does not do a thing related to getting us closer to softlaunch unless the context for that value is akin to its context in the final product.

Having zero working economy is just as close to a finalized system as having an economy that does not resemble the final system just to make you feel better about logging in and farming.

I'd rather get closer to launch than make gold coins in alpha.

Gold having value has no bearing on soft launch.  Your cart is way up the road from your horse.  Gold effecting leveling is obvious a "knob", you're talking minutes of development time to adjust.

Having a working economy and access to obtaining gold helps the small guys.  It immediately gives them access to vessels, gear, weapons, jewelry etc without making all those crafters.

Having a working economy allows us to test, you know, the reason we are here, all aspects and interactions around the economy such as vendors, ek's etc.  Want an example: We were able to give feedback that one person should be able to take up all the vendor stalls 30 seconds after campaign launch.  Vendor stalls had value because there was an economy, and that economy was made possible due to the fact that the medium of currency had value.

 

Seems like you have taken a prideful stance on your position and are now arguing with me for the sake or arguing.  Your counterarguments are terrible, so just stop.

Edited by Ble

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