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Ussiah

Upcoming Discipline Changes

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Posted (edited)

Pros:

Newbies will be able to get disciplines by just farming gold.

Cons:

All you are doing is pushing back the grind to advanced vessels.

We keep stating how the grind is getting worse and worse. We get to keep the same grindy RNG for green/blue vessel and now for a purple vessel we will need to farm 3x the same discipline? Grind x3.

I understand that minors and majors will be easier to farm in upcoming patches, but why are you making it HARDER in the mean time if we want anything above blue?

The disciplines will have the same stats, so what is the point of adding this extra step in? Can you  give them better stat line items?

A guild mate put it best, its like you are telling us to test a horse+cart and only giving us the cart first and telling us to push it.

Guess what, its heavy, we don't want to. Give us the horse(the improved loot tables/thrall system) at the same time as the cart(requiring disc quality = vessel quality).

 

One suggestion if you want to do this change, go ahead and make whites refinable or add a high cost gold item to refine them. Give us something to reduce the grind we keep mentioning.

Also, how will blacksmith and other crafting discs work? Skinning and other base harvesting discs?

@thomasblairplease provide guidance or some sort of response.

EDIT: incase you didn't know, white quality discs will be buyable in upcoming patch but only EQUIPABLE on white vessels or lower. You can still get disciplines the normal way and will need to to equip for blue and you will need to refine the blue to use for purple.(3x the disc)

Edited by Ussiah

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Posted (edited)

EVERYONE has been asking that you stop putting your testers through tedious grinds to get gear, levels and vessels - at least until you have the infrastructure to accommodate some path though all that mess.  You're adding all the tedium with the caveat that some day it wont be as bad because of some other game mechanic you're going to introduce.  It's so backwards.

 

Every patch you make it worse than the last.  You don't fix whats broke, you make the game less and less fun require more and more time.  It's like you want your game to fail.  I really don't understand how any logic could bring you to implement these (and past) changes in the manner in which you are doing it.

 

Jtodd pretty much summed it all up when he said "and thats why I'm never going to do a crowdfunded game again".   Yikes...  Considering this game, that's quite presumptuous that he even could.

Edited by Ble

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Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, Ussiah said:

All you are doing is pushing back the grind to advanced vessels.

why are you making it HARDER in the mean time if we want anything above blue?

The disciplines will have the same stats, so what is the point of adding this extra step in? Can you  give them better stat line items?

They shouldn't give us half a working model when it causes so much issue. Not sure why they continue to do this as it doesn't really seem to make testing/playing enjoyable and I don't see how it is helping them collect data/feedback as it isn't realistic to the experience of having everything at the same time.

With that out of the way, I like Disciplines being tiered and tied to Vessel quality. I'd like this to be applied to everything, I'd also like everything to decay, but doubt that will happen.

What this opens up is possibilities for tiered Campaigns. "Blue and Below" or "Legendary Only" could be possibilities. This would allow players insight into who they'd be going up against and what is expected of them when entering. If I'm only willing to put in the effort for Blue gear, I won't join a "Legendary and Below" campaign and complain. 

Now they could do this without Disciplines being tiered, but I believe it opens up more options in playing with the dials and campaign settings along with where we get resources, disciplines, gear, etc.

As far as it being a grind for high tier characters, it should be. Getting the best stuff should require some effort. How much effort is in question, but people shouldn't be able to avoid progression and rush to the end every campaign or however long it might take. Defeats the point of progression unless everything is breaking fast and gear isn't sticking around too long. Easy come, hard to go is not a good system. Easy come/go, Hard to come/go can work and be balanced around the power of vessels/gear. If it took an extra 100 hours to get 3% more power, I'm probably not going to be seeking that all the time if Blue or whichever tier is good enough. ACE needs to find the proper power/grind balance.

Edited by APE

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Posted (edited)

@APE

Agree on everything. Its fine to tier it out, what its not fine to do is add another thing to grind while we wait on the mechanics that fix the grind issue.

 

Edit: Also, did the blacksmithing etc discs just get erased? Or what?

Edited by Ussiah

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Well I guess this will make the whose the biggest Zerg convo go away. Not it will be who was actually able to field one full group. 

One month til CU 🙏🏿

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6 minutes ago, Ussiah said:

@APE

Agree on everything. Its fine to tier it out, what its not fine to do is add another thing to grind while we wait on the mechanics that fix the grind issue.

 

Edit: Also, did the blacksmithing etc discs just get erased? Or what?

Gone because they are no longer necessary.

Recipes put back onto the tables, so anyone can make anything, just really crappy versions.  So less "getting started" interdependence because you won't get totally stopped by not having a "padded leather" and access to a leather crafters.

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1 minute ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Gone because they are no longer necessary.

Recipes put back onto the tables, so anyone can make anything, just really crappy versions.  So less "getting started" interdependence because you won't get totally stopped by not having a "padded leather" and access to a leather crafters.

Still used for the stat bonuses. Not necessary but were helpful

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5 minutes ago, oneply said:

Well I guess this will make the whose the biggest Zerg convo go away. Not it will be who was actually able to field one full group. 

One month til CU 🙏🏿

YOU GAIZ HAD 5 PEPLE TONITE???? OMG ZERG  U CANT WIN WITHOUT MASS OVERCROWDING THE SERVER WITH UR FULL GRP

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Posted (edited)

Unless the repopulated the zone, theres only ONE mob that is ancient R6+ in the entire CW.  I bet they don't even know that. I really don't think people understand what just happened.  There is ONE mob that will drop two blue discs of a random type every 3 hours for the ENTIRE CW.  Yeah, I hope you don't need any discs, ever.  If you're making a purple vessel, you'll need 3 of those to drop.  So you'll have to get the random disc you need and youll have ONE chance every 3 hours to get it.  You're talking weeks based on average RNG, and thats IF you are the only one killing it.

 

Wonder how well folks are going to do now against people who have characters built and disc'd already.

Basically, if you didn't already have your character fully leveled, disced and geared - you can no longer play this game.

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Edited by Pann
Edited for standard text size.

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32 minutes ago, Ble said:

EVERYONE has been asking that you stop putting your testers through tedious grinds to get gear, levels and vessels - at least until you have the infrastructure to accommodate some path though all that mess.  You're adding all the tedium with the caveat that some day it wont be as bad because of some other game mechanic you're going to introduce.  It's so backwards.

Believe the issue is they are trying to pass off a "pre-alpha" as a game which is bad for everyone.

Attempting to make it playable/enjoyable while adding in half broken/missing features is not a smooth process.

While some issues can't be planned for, knowing that X is missing from the XYZ formula and is going to make people pull their hair out could be helped.

Test has vendors selling lots of things which speeds progression up. Would be interesting to see Vendors selling Blue gear/disciplines/vessels or at least resources to make it for free. Especially if training is sped up. Have mobs and resource nodes drop 5 x as much as they do (leather, dust, gold, xp, ore, etc). Basically make it very easy to harvest, craft, progress.

This would take a lot of the tedious effort out of a "pre-alpha" experience. 

Do they want to test how Goggles work or do they want to test how annoyed people are when they don't drop?

Do they want to test all the systems that go into progression (harvesting/crafting/leveling/drops) or do they want to test how players love RNG and grinding for the sake of grinding?

No easy solution, but there are ways to make a paid for test experience not a second job.

When X is added into XYZ, then dial it back and focus testing on it and how systems work together.

What I do find a bit funny is they say they aren't focused on balancing/fixing classes and powers which are the bread n butter of a player experience because big picture stuff comes first, but how many updates have they been balancing/fixing other systems? How many of those updates are just trying to improve the experience vs adding something new? Seems a bit wonky. Much rather have all class powers functions vs tweaking points gained by standing in a circle. Likely different people focused on these things, but interesting still.

 

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Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, Ble said:

Unless the repopulated the zone, theres only ONE mob that is ancient R6+ in the entire CW.  I bet they don't even know that.

 

I really don't think people understand what just happened.  There is ONE mob that will drop two blue discs of a random type every 3 hours for the ENTIRE CW.  Yeah, I hope you don't need any discs, ever.  If you're making a purple vessel, you'll need 3 of those to drop.  So you'll have to get the random disc you need and youll have ONE chance every 3 hours to get it.  You're talking weeks based on average RNG, and thats IF you are the only one killing it.

 

Wonder how well folks are going to do now against people who have characters built and disc'd already.

Basically, if you didn't already have your character fully leveled, disced and geared - you can no longer play this game.

I hope they consider making all CW zones 6+ by default. Only one ancient that drops discs for a HUGE map doesn't help this change.

It mainly hurts people who already had a purple vessel, will most likely have to reroll and stick with the same grind we've known.

This fact also put people who put prioritizing ancients in the previous CWs in a MUCH better position than others. Probably why some of the bigger guilds didn't feel crushed by the grind as much as the smaller ones did.

Edited by Ussiah

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I tend to agree with most of these comments.  at first I was psyched because I thought great.  they are creating different levels of disc. starting at common which you can buy and then go from there but I believe the topic poster said the bonuses don't vary based on quality???? is that correct meaning a white disc gives the same as a green or blue or etc.??????  I can't check because clearly I have none of these or the ability to get my hands on them.... other than common.   If the bonues are different based on quality, than I think you should be able to place a white disc on a green vessel or a green disc on a blue vessel.  basically a vessel should be able to accommodate the same quality disc as the vessel and below...  but currently you can't which is dumb in my mind assuming the stat bonus are different.  If they are the same than the whole system is fubr............

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41 minutes ago, srathor said:

So green vessels just get nothing?

Green quality is there because every other game with a color coded system has green. Just skip it as intended. Originality wasn't a stretch goal.

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3 hours ago, Ble said:

I really don't think people understand what just happened.  There is ONE mob that will drop two blue discs of a random type every 3 hours for the ENTIRE CW. 

Basically, if you didn't already have your character fully leveled, disced and geared - you can no longer play this game.

RIP.  Game is unplayable in current state.

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It seems like they are pushing back the grind towards advanced vessels and advanced equipment which is ultimately a good thing in my opinion. Top tier character setups need to be a constant and fleeting carrot on a stick to keep people in the world doing things.

It sucks right now because acquiring disciplines from drops is brutal. It's frustrating but we both know it's going to change and this is a temporary pain-point caused by development.

Do you disagree with the concept of high end character setups/gear being considerably harder to get and maintain?

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, ZYBAK said:

 

Do you disagree with the concept of high end character setups/gear being considerably harder to get and maintain?

 

Not arguing this point. Please do not move goal post. 

My argument is this change was unnecessary at this point in time until the gathering of discs was fully implemented. 

One possible solution would’ve been to make whites available to basic vessels and blue good for all advanced vessels. 

Then once thralls and loot tables changed push this change. 

Edited by Ussiah

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The community defined viability for us as a "max white level vessel with discs".
So...
We are working towards making that a reality for players to hit in a weekend. (you should continue to see tweaks to hit this goal in the 5.92.X cycle)

If you want to go to the next stage of progression and use a green or blue vessel, then the default quality that the mobs drop for both minors/majors (blue) are in the world. (If something is eating the spawns then that sounds like a bug, but in stream I saw today players are easily getting 3 blue minors from a r7s, and an ancient spider that dropped a bunch of souls.)

If you want to go beyond that stage in quality levels and use purple or orange vessels, then you are committing to a much lengthier process. (Shouldn't it feel like an accomplishment to max/disc out an orange vessel?)

Basically pick how high you want to go into vessel quality. For some people, the extra attribute points won't be worth it and they don't have the time, so they stop progression at white quality and login for sieges or PoI timers. For others who want to invest the time they have the prestige of the higher qualities.


Thomas Blair
ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.
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30 minutes ago, thomasblair said:

(If something is eating the spawns then that sounds like a bug, but in stream I saw today players are easily getting 3 blue minors from a r7s, and an ancient spider that dropped a bunch of souls.)

It's not a bug per se, but bad RNG. In the Trial of Maeve, out of 9 zones there's only 1 r6+ Ancient mob (1!), which makes Combat Souls (and thus major disciplines) very scarce. But on a broader scale, this issue is frustrating because you have designed r6+ mobs to have the good loots, but the world builder likes to build the world to be mostly r5 and below.

 


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You Can't Be A Genius, If You Aren't The Slightest Bit Insane.

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