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Ussiah

Upcoming Discipline Changes

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, thomasblair said:

The community defined viability for us as a "max white level vessel with discs".
So...

Viable in what context?  Because the only context where this viable is vs. some spiders or other pve.  It's also viable in PvP vs other white/whites.  But white/white is not viable vs blue/blue and blue/blue is really the only combat-worthy set-up now since the way you've done discs.  White/white is also not viable vs ballistas, but blue/blue starts to have a chance if you maneuver correctly.

 

1 hour ago, thomasblair said:

If you want to go to the next stage of progression and use a green or blue vessel, then the default quality that the mobs drop for both minors/majors (blue) are in the world. (If something is eating the spawns then that sounds like a bug, but in stream I saw today players are easily getting 3 blue minors from a r7s, and an ancient spider that dropped a bunch of souls.)

If you want to go beyond that stage in quality levels and use purple or orange vessels, then you are committing to a much lengthier process. (Shouldn't it feel like an accomplishment to max/disc out an orange vessel?)

Basically pick how high you want to go into vessel quality. For some people, the extra attribute points won't be worth it and they don't have the time, so they stop progression at white quality and login for sieges or PoI timers. For others who want to invest the time they have the prestige of the higher qualities.

 

Have you actually tried to farm specific discs in your game?  Or have you just gone out and saw that a_disc_00 dropped and turned the page?  Because if you think watching 3 people get 3 random discs, half of which are always worthless crafting techniques, is a good and valuable thing, then you missed the issue completely.  There's no way to target the discs you want.  I have to compete between a full loot table on every disc-dropping mob I kill, all of which are on timers.    And btw, those rare good minors, yeah I need 9 each of those were I to go legendary.

And as bad as that is, it doesn't hold a candle to how horrible getting majors is.  Not even talking legendary vessel.  We got us a 3 hour spider to kill.  And the "us" is EVERYONE IN THE CW.   Oh, and it spawns every 3 hours.  You've no way to hunt the ones you need/want or even the type (healing, defense, caster, melee).

Lets say you're going for two majors on your legendary vessel.  Every time you kill that r6 spider you get 2 out of a possible 40 major discs.  Now lets say that all drop equally, meaning that you will get 1 each of the majors you need every 40 that drop.  So you get 1 major that you need per every 60 hours (40 majors will drop in 20 spawns of 3 hours) or 60 hours if you play 24/7 and kill the spawn every time it spawns.  I need 9 of each type, so 9x60 hours or 540 hours or nearly 23 days of logging in every 3 hours without fail.  Lets say you can only play 12 hours a day.  Now you need 46 days to complete your majors.  What if you can only play 6 hours per day, you need over 3 months to farm your majors.  Normal people prob average 1-3 hours a day, so lets say 3 hours.  You'll be able to complete your major discs in only 6 months.

This accomplishment nets you a legendary disc that has the same stats as a white disc...

No, this is not an accomplishment.  Accomplishment carries the connotation of a euphoric end, a sense of pride to go along with the completion of a journey or quest, a feeling that the time spent, although long, was worth the end result.  None of that here.

Edited by Ble

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49 minutes ago, thomasblair said:

The community defined viability for us as a "max white level vessel with discs".
So...
We are working towards making that a reality for players to hit in a weekend. (you should continue to see tweaks to hit this goal in the 5.92.X cycle)

If you want to go to the next stage of progression and use a green or blue vessel, then the default quality that the mobs drop for both minors/majors (blue) are in the world. (If something is eating the spawns then that sounds like a bug, but in stream I saw today players are easily getting 3 blue minors from a r7s, and an ancient spider that dropped a bunch of souls.)

If you want to go beyond that stage in quality levels and use purple or orange vessels, then you are committing to a much lengthier process. (Shouldn't it feel like an accomplishment to max/disc out an orange vessel?)

Basically pick how high you want to go into vessel quality. For some people, the extra attribute points won't be worth it and they don't have the time, so they stop progression at white quality and login for sieges or PoI timers. For others who want to invest the time they have the prestige of the higher qualities.

The only problem with this implementation on Disc to vessels is that the Disc don't get better as you level them up. A white Field Surgeon is the same as a Legendary one except I can slot the Legendary one into my Legendary vessel. All the work require to get the same result I can achieve from a vendor for 500 gold doesn't give me a feeling of Accomplishment.
The disc should get a slight increase as you upgrade them so when you finally find 9 of the same combat souls (of which the drops are completely random), it feels like I actually accomplished something. The Quality of the disc should be gated by the quality of the vessel, I.E Legendary disc can't be equipped by any vessel quality except Legendary but Legendary vessels should be able to equip any quality disc.
The amount of gathering it takes to get a good quality Legendary vessel is enough of a chore, adding the scavenger hunt of collecting 18 combat souls and 27 minor disc just to be combat ready is not necessary. Please re-evaluate this system of Disc's, Thanks and continue the great work.
@thomasblair

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@BleIt definitely sucks the amount of ancients in this randomization of the Campaign worlds and the Worldbuilders and QA will make better efforts to ensure the spawners in the future don't create such a dearth of the disc droppers. Sadly we can't adjust spawners mid campaign as with our current tech the maps are locked in when the campaign starts.

We have on our list to shift specific discs to certain NPC types, so you can focus target specific disciplines.

@DedolinNot adding additional stats to higher quality discs was a decision to not let additional stat bloat creep in to every aspect of legendary. We definitely want the higher qualities to feel more powerful but not to the point where they decimate the lower tier vessels. (Because at that point then legendary becomes the new standard for minimal viable!)


Thomas Blair
ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.
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13 minutes ago, Ble said:

Viable in what context?  Because the only context where this viable is vs. some spiders or other pve.  It's also viable in PvP vs other white/whites.  But white/white is not viable vs blue/blue and blue/blue is really the only combat-worthy set-up now since the way you've done discs.  White/white is also not viable vs ballistas, but blue/blue starts to have a chance if you maneuver correctly.

I disagree that a level 30 white vessel with discs isn't viable. You get most of your stats from talents and gear. Having a better vessel is optimal, yes, but you're viable without it


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1 minute ago, thomasblair said:

@BleIt definitely sucks the amount of ancients in this randomization of the Campaign worlds and the Worldbuilders and QA will make better efforts to ensure the spawners in the future don't create such a dearth of the disc droppers. Sadly we can't adjust spawners mid campaign as with our current tech the maps are locked in when the campaign starts.

We have on our list to shift specific discs to certain NPC types, so you can focus target specific disciplines.

That is fantastic news, that will help players of any vessel type get what they need in a reasonable amount of time.  It will also create PvP (which is currently severely lacking) at the sites of popular drop spawns.

As pertains to legendary, that would bring discs in line with the time it takes to do other stuff for your legendary vessel (with legendary gear), like farm >300 chaos embers, and a mixture of around 300 legendary ore/stone/leather/minerals/gems.

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, coolster50 said:

I disagree that a level 30 white vessel with discs isn't viable. You get most of your stats from talents and gear. Having a better vessel is optimal, yes, but you're viable without it

Would you like me to demonstrate this?  Lemme know.  Also, I said "viable" needs to have context with it because white/white is viable, just not in mainstream pvp which is blue/blue.  Funny that you said "you get most of you starts from talents and gear".  I think you made my point.  I also think you might be forgetting what happens to a 5000 HP white gear vessel when it runs up on a blued out opponent.  Lastly, "viability" itself is a subjective term.  What the word means to you and me might be two completely different things.  To me, if I play my self, one of me using a white/white and the other me using a blue/blue, the white/white will never have a chance.

Edited by Ble

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2 minutes ago, Ble said:

Would you like me to demonstrate this?  Lemme know.  Also, I said "viable" needs to have context with it because white/white is viable, just not in mainstream pvp which is blue/blue.

I'm going to assume by white/white and blue/blue you mean white vessel/white gear and blue vessel/blue gear, in which case, nothing about the quality of gear was said.

In the context of pvp, a white vessel with blue gear has a fighting chance against a blue vessel with blue gear. Who wins depends on build, class, and player skill.


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1 minute ago, coolster50 said:

I'm going to assume by white/white and blue/blue you mean white vessel/white gear and blue vessel/blue gear, in which case, nothing about the quality of gear was said.

In the context of pvp, a white vessel with blue gear has a fighting chance against a blue vessel with blue gear. Who wins depends on build, class, and player skill.

Until today, discs were discs... so that was equal on both sides of the equation.  I do agree that the difference in a white and blue vessel, if that being the only difference, is not that big of a deal.  Seems obvious so I'm a bit confused here.

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1 minute ago, Ble said:

Until today, discs were discs... so that was equal on both sides of the equation.  I do agree that the difference in a white and blue vessel, if that being the only difference, is not that big of a deal.  Seems obvious so I'm a bit confused here.

I haven't played 5.92 past the initial snap test they had, where white discs were the same as green/blue/etc. discs, so if that hasn't changed then discs are still equal for the time being.


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Now we're both confused lol

You were saying how white/white was viable in different contexts, and I'm saying a level 30 white vessel is viable in all contexts, because you can just use better gear to close the difference. I'm not sure how this disc change changes that


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@thomasblairAppreciate your responses.

We get that you are looking at the end product in your mind and we are looking at a development stage that isn't the real game.

It is just very disheartening to your player base when changes are implemented that make the game WAY more tedious than the end result when we feel the changes could've been done slower or in tandem with future implementations.

I REALLY think changing each CW to 6+ resources AND making a crafted disc work for ANY advanced vessel(until targeted disc farming can be accomplished) would go a long way.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, thomasblair said:

(Shouldn't it feel like an accomplishment to max/disc out an orange vessel?)

Yes absolutely. But what you've done is gated it and gimped them otherwise. If I could only equip a Legendary Vessel with Legendary Disciplines then those should have additional stat payoffs, while abilities remain static. This isn't any sort of rewarding progression, and you can't even argue that the experience is any way rewarding. 

7 hours ago, thomasblair said:

For others who want to invest the time they have the prestige of the higher qualities.  ...then legendary becomes the new standard for minimal viable!

Absolutely no one feels prestigious about getting a different color vessel in this game without a power scale increase on every component. It's like owning the White Elephant, at the end of the day you got a 2 ton poorly made socks machine that becomes a burden. What you've essentially accomplished is making Blue the new celing.

As for legendary becomming the new minimal viable, yes, in endgame content, with over a year of getting professions to make legendary mats viable even, wouldn't you expect for people who put the work in to reach for the best at their disposal?

As the man behind many of the crafting decisions I'd assume the goal would be not to make the entire process unrewarding, and without need for progression late into the game. Isn't being more powerful the only reason driving any progression in a pvp game? Where as the way you put it more or less, makes this feel like I'm just aiming to build an all Diamond house in minecraft because it's nice looking.

 

*another note, coulda been a cool add to give runecrafters a hand in making combat items, RIP

Edited by Allinavi
Runecrafting point

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Posted (edited)

@thomasblair

If Discs are not going to be a component of a vessel where upgrading from one tier of a disc to another adds value or increase in power, then I'd say that discs should also have the same creation difficulty.  There is benefit in all the other farming you do when you create a higher tier vessel, its not huge individually, but there is a small stat increase from one color to the next.

Why not the same for disciplines?  Do you think that someone with 25 Healing Modifier will absolutely crush someone with 23 healing modifier?  It's going to be virtually the same, and after thousands of casts of a spell you'd start to see that 2% difference show up.

So why not the same on a disc?  You've dropped the 5% stat down to 3%.  Healing Mod for example on Field Surgeon.  White could be 3%, Green 3.5%, Blue 4%, Purple 4.5% and Legendary 5%.  By the time crafters can make a legendary vessel, nearly every entity that wants to PvP should be able to make blue, the PvP norm.  So you're realistically looking at a Legendary Field Surgeon having 1% more than the Average Field Surgeons out on the field.  Not game breaking.  Small, but an actual increase - some way to justify the MANY hours you spend creating the disc.

And, yes, full legendary should absolutely (I'm guessing, Ive not known anyone to EVER have created a fully-rerolled-on-all-items-legendary character) dominate full white, as it should be.  That doesn't make legendary the "new minimal viable" because its gated behind rarity of ALL materials used to create it, including discs, but those legendary materials and their legendary creations all provide a small increase to the total value of the Legendary vessel.

Edited by Ble

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7 hours ago, thomasblair said:

The community defined viability for us as a "max white level vessel with discs".
So...
We are working towards making that a reality for players to hit in a weekend. (you should continue to see tweaks to hit this goal in the 5.92.X cycle)

I love the idea of new players with white vessels being to buy vendor disciplines to allow for quick gearing up and experimentation of different builds.

However, when the conversation of minimum viable was taking place a couple months ago that was before passive skill training reached a level where gear like this is possible. Nobody in whites (which would be like ~90 dmg on a axe with much less stats) is going to be competing with this. Once we start making good legendary/epic gear the minimum viable level shifts to blue quality. 

Screenshot_839.png

7 hours ago, thomasblair said:

If you want to go to the next stage of progression and use a green or blue vessel, then the default quality that the mobs drop for both minors/majors (blue) are in the world. (If something is eating the spawns then that sounds like a bug, but in stream I saw today players are easily getting 3 blue minors from a r7s, and an ancient spider that dropped a bunch of souls.)

If you want to go beyond that stage in quality levels and use purple or orange vessels, then you are committing to a much lengthier process. (Shouldn't it feel like an accomplishment to max/disc out an orange vessel?)

Basically pick how high you want to go into vessel quality. For some people, the extra attribute points won't be worth it and they don't have the time, so they stop progression at white quality and login for sieges or PoI timers. For others who want to invest the time they have the prestige of the higher qualities.

Why not drop different quality disciplines other than blue? I gotta say I'm really not a fan of this idea. I get that 3x blues for a purple would be similar to trying to get a rarer purple drop....and 9x for a legendary would simulate having to get an even rarer orange drop....but the problem is this doesn't reward killing higher rank monsters at all. I suppose you could make R6 only drop one disc, R7 drop 2, R8 drop 3 and R9/R10 drop 4. Still, I'm just not a fan of this. 

Treat it similar to how you do resource drops.

R5 and below - no disc drops. These are God's Reach rank monsters and you'll be expected to be in white vessel with white disciplines. 

R6 - green disc drops

R7 - green disc drops with chance for blue

R8 - blue disc drops with chance for purple

R9/R10 - purple disc drops with chance for orange

The idea was that in order to get higher quality ANYTHING you'd have to go into riskier campaigns. If I want orange ore, I need to go to dregs where R10 nodes are. If I want to level an orange vessel I have to go to dregs to kill R10 monsters (towards the top end of the leveling curve). If I want to get disciplines for an orange vessel I have to kill R10 thralls in the dregs. 

The current implementation circumvents this to a degree. 

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Posted (edited)

--For information purposes--

Here is a Blue quality Nethari vessel vs a starter white vessel.The blue vessel is full additives. All extra parts and a full 4 solution philo stone. All additives were blue or purple quality. The Necro was fully trained, geared and buffed. This is about as good of a blue quality vessel that you can get ATM. I just crafted this 20 minutes prior to this post.

 

Spoiler

4PXGhOg.png

A blue vessel will get 12 more ability points than a white vessel at level 30. I'm going to say those 12 points go into STR. That gives us the following difference.

+53 Con +43 Dex +64 Int +49 Spi + 85 Str

This works out to...

424 HP | 4.3% Crit Chance | 0.43% Resist All | 4.3% Crit Heal Amount | 6.4% Crit Damage | 3.2% Heal Mod | 6.4% Crit Heal Amount | 98 Support Power | 4.25% Damage Mod | 85 AP

Also, 1% Damage Mod Cap | 11.5 Str Cap | 2.5% Slashing Cap | 1.3 Stamina

-- This marks the end of the facts and beginning of opinion--

This vessel in particular is going to be a Templar Vindicator so a good bit of those stats won't matter but lets say it was a class that took advantage of all stats. A paladin maybe?

Those are some pretty sweet stats and as a min/maxer I 100% want to have them.

Do I need them to feel competitive? No, I don't think so. I would argue that this blue vessel over the default white is not even a 5% overall increase to the character's effectiveness, and that is if I'm assuming I will be utilizing every single one of these stats.

Will it be a PITA to get this set up? Yes, but so what. If I don't want to the white vessel is there and is really not all that much worse IMO. You can maybe argue that this is more than a 5% increase, maybe more closer to 10%

This might all be fine if this was the top end for vessels. We have 2 more tiers though. I would be very interested to see this comparison on a legendary vessel. This might make too large of a power gap. I think there was a tricked out Legendary vessel created yesterday. I will see if I can dig that up.

 

Here is Blue Half-Elf vs Legendary High-Elf

Spoiler

trcs5cq.png

 

Edited by Yoink

aeei5jG.png

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4 hours ago, Ussiah said:

@thomasblairAppreciate your responses.

We get that you are looking at the end product in your mind and we are looking at a development stage that isn't the real game.

It is just very disheartening to your player base when changes are implemented that make the game WAY more tedious than the end result when we feel the changes could've been done slower or in tandem with future implementations.

 

This should be the conversation. Implementing half completed grinds without thought of the affects it will have on what exists now. the grind not to level, not to gather, but to customize your vessel is driving your testing base out. The whole rollout has been poorly thought out. I don’t see how us testing half completed/temporary systems even helps, especially since testers are leaving because of it  

Reliance on claiming it’s not your fault it’s the random generator that does it is a piss poor excuse. One you created and are in charge of. Since this has been a consistent irritation of the population maybe you need to create a way to adjust things after the map has been created. 

@thomasblair a serious question, do you actually play the game as it exists on live with the rest of us? 

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12 hours ago, thomasblair said:

If you want to go to the next stage of progression and use a green or blue vessel, then the default quality that the mobs drop for both minors/majors (blue) are in the world. (If something is eating the spawns then that sounds like a bug, but in stream I saw today players are easily getting 3 blue minors from a r7s, and an ancient spider that dropped a bunch of souls.)

I agree with everything you said, and it boils down to the juice being worth the squeeze. In a post release game with a working and well supplied economy making surplus items available to players that actually want them, I don't see anything wrong with where the game is today.

In this pre-alpha environment we don't have that.

The only currency that player run vendors accept is not accepted as currency by the players that would run them, so we're all farming for everything we need in our own little world. At best, we might arrange a face to face bartered trade.

With the placeholder inventory system, for each player to maintain personal stores of everything they want and need, and everything they should want to sell is not really feasible.

We don't have manufacturing, so hand crafting every single item is a pita. Storing materials and vending finished goods is also a pain.

The RNG based discipline system is also a pain for now, with no good way to store unwanted loot, get it to players that do want it, and get the stuff you do want in return.

Sacrifice items are in the same boat. Those should be valuable items, but but in the current environment they're trash.

IMO, the big 3 items that would calm things down are inventory, manufacturing, and a common currency that is both accepted by vendors and valued by players; if not gold, then dust would work just as well. When we have these tools, we'll solve our own problems.

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5 hours ago, blazzen said:

I love the idea of new players with white vessels being to buy vendor disciplines to allow for quick gearing up and experimentation of different builds.

However, when the conversation of minimum viable was taking place a couple months ago that was before passive skill training reached a level where gear like this is possible. Nobody in whites (which would be like ~90 dmg on a axe with much less stats) is going to be competing with this. Once we start making good legendary/epic gear the minimum viable level shifts to blue quality. 

Right in full release minimum viable gear will be dependent on ruleset.

White will be viable in campaigns shorter than a month that allow no importation.

Blue will be viable in campaigns that allow importation or have longer duration.

Though I guess that's making assumptions about time to create vs. time to consume for equipment.


"To hell with honor. Win."

A Beginner's Guide to Crowfall (5.8.5 Edition)

 

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