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Ussiah

Dust Based Economy

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Posted (edited)

@thomasblair@jpollard@jtoddcoleman

When Gold Coins were first introduced (long time ago it feels like) I believe that they would be "created" by merging dust together.

Obviously this wasn't the case, but at the same time gold coins were introduced, so was leveling. Thus Gold Coin inherent value was created through the leveling process. I know that there are future plans for more gold usage and more dust usage, and my suggestion would not counter any of those.

My suggestion is to create a basic recipe that allows anyone to transmute gold coins to dust and vice versa, but creating wastage / sink while doing so.

An example already exists where we can change Chaos Embers to Dust. No one uses this recipe because Chaos Embers are the de-facto payment method between players because of its inherent use.

Example:

  • Gold to Dust Transmute - Gold Coins Required = 50 - Result = 40 Dust
  • Dust to Gold Transmute - Dust Required = 50 - Result = 40 Coins
  • Thus losing 20% of your transmutation.

Why is this needed?

  • Besides the obvious lack of players, the economy has been lacking since the inherent value of gold was nerfed(no longer used for leveling vessels all the way)
  • Dust has inherent value and by adding this you create a way for PvE players to interact with Harvesters and Crafters.
  • More paths are always good. It will give players more independence and more choice of how to spend their time and interact in the marketplace.

 

Issues:

  • Balancing - obviously this would require balancing to make it so dust and coins are still both valued in their own way. (30 minutes worth of farming gold should transmute to 80% of amount of dust you get in 30 minutes and vice versa so better to farm dust if want dust and farm gold if want gold.)

Ease of Implementation(besides balancing)

  • All this would require is adding two basic recipes, something that could be accomplished very easily.

 

Sidenote: I would love to see a chaos ember creation recipe with a large amount of wastage to do.(IE 500 dust for 1 ember)

Thus Gold to Dust to Ember would have huge wastage but provide use for End Game Players.

Edited by Ussiah

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For almost an entire year I did barely anything but play "economy" at the EC tunnel in EQ back in the day.  Trading up and making a profit.  Knowing the market slightly better than others, taking advantage of motivated (desperate) sellers.... I loved it.  Economy is a thing.  It's necessary.  I like this idea.

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Would also be nice to list items on vendors in exchange for dust rather than gold. Trying to do my part, keeping a vendor stocked but I can't even find anyone to trade me crafting mats or dust for gold.  

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38 minutes ago, Hud said:

Would also be nice to list items on vendors in exchange for dust rather than gold. Trying to do my part, keeping a vendor stocked but I can't even find anyone to trade me crafting mats or dust for gold.  

I think the issue is Gold doesn't have enough value to other players, having a ton of gold doesn't really do anything.

This may change in the future, but I think making some gold to dust transmutation and dust to chaos ember transmutation even if super expensive could make players have a reason to let go of materials for gold.

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On 6/8/2019 at 8:07 AM, Ussiah said:

My suggestion is to create a basic recipe that allows anyone to transmute gold coins to dust and vice versa, but creating wastage / sink while doing so.

Thanks for the suggesting, @Ussiah. I'll definitely bring it up to the team. 

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Posted (edited)

I don't think we can fully blame crowfall for our lackluster player driven economy.  Sure, they kinda gave us a kick in the balls when they nerfed the gold drops all to hell but that is kinda their fault for them feeling the need to nerf gold drops.  A vast majority of games do not allow players to level with gold and when you do I can see many problems arising.  gold is for the exchange of goods.  Many games have a strong player driven economy with gold as its basis and NOT have it used for leveling so that should be the first step..... fyi  it doesn't matter whether its gold or some other item, when you allow a level to be gained via the "sacrifice" of something than all the big groups/guilds will hoard said items for that specific purpose.  What ever the go to now is I am confident that the main guilds have them stock piled for leveling purposes only.  I know cause I would.  Gold is not valuable because of something crowfall did.  It currently is not valuable because there is zero confidence that a person can exchange their hard work for said gold and then run down to some vendor somewhere and exchange gold for something they desire.  It all starts with players posting items for sale which extremely few people are doing.  Maybe crowfall can tweek the vendors to make it more appealing.  I know I am not to excited about putting up a vendor that has an upkeep fee if I am not confident I could bring in enough money to cover it and then some.  I run around daily looking for someone selling something I need (ambrosia, green or blue leather, wood, blacksmithing components which I may or may not have the skills to craft, etc)  but no one is.  That's the start of the problem and it doesn't matter if its dust or embers or what not, if people are not posting items for sale where I can then run up to the vendor and buy what I need/want for gold/dust/embers, etc then the economy will suck...  Also the vendors need to have the ability to set up buy orders.  Players need to be able to find a vendor somewhere that is looking to buy what they have NOT an npc vendor but a player vendor with a price that is fair.  Once again, it doesn't matter the item used for the exchange be it gold, dust, embers, what ever.  Its an issue of convenience, players actually posting things for sale, and not all the pieces needed for a strong player driven economy being in place yet.......

Edited by Kianna_RuneMaker

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12 minutes ago, Kianna_RuneMaker said:

I run around daily looking for someone selling something I need (ambrosia, green or blue leather, wood, blacksmithing components which I may or may not have the skills to craft, etc)  but no one is.  That's the start of the problem and it doesn't matter if its dust or embers or what not, if people are not posting items for sale where I can then run up to the vendor and buy what I need/want for gold/dust/embers, etc then the economy will suck..

That's because players don't want to sell goods for gold which is why I believe the OP made this post. Dust and embers hold more value than what should be the defacto currency, gold. If gold can't hold enough value to be a currency then just remove it. Unfortunately the market is inefficient enough with vendors strewn across temples, free city, and EKs. There is no centralized market and we essentially have a barter system. I think more trading gets done on the Discord channels than in-game currently, which is unfortunate but I guess probably unavoidable.

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Several patches back gold was worth a decent amount. Whites were able to be converted into items to level people quickly with a goodly amount of work behind the scenes. It was efficient yet a bit tedious for the crafter and the buyer was happy and leveled fast. 

White frames could level white vessels to 20 then green was needed. 

Then they tied levels to skills and the nerfs kept coming. To the point of crafters no longer wanted to spend the time and mats to make things to sac. It was not worth it. Gold went out the window a patch or two later as a leveling tool and it lost ALL value. 

At one point with all the other stuff going on we had 5ish EK's all thriving and competition was going well. 10+ vendors in each.

Every one of the changes since has killed that. Ace might want to look into that. 

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54 minutes ago, yianni said:

From my understanding i thought gold wasn't gonna be put in game. I know i saw/read it somewhere from one of the devs

they talked early on about not wanting a gold based economy. 

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15 minutes ago, srathor said:

Several patches back gold was worth a decent amount. Whites were able to be converted into items to level people quickly with a goodly amount of work behind the scenes. It was efficient yet a bit tedious for the crafter and the buyer was happy and leveled fast. 

White frames could level white vessels to 20 then green was needed. 

Then they tied levels to skills and the nerfs kept coming. To the point of crafters no longer wanted to spend the time and mats to make things to sac. It was not worth it. Gold went out the window a patch or two later as a leveling tool and it lost ALL value. 

At one point with all the other stuff going on we had 5ish EK's all thriving and competition was going well. 10+ vendors in each.

Every one of the changes since has killed that. Ace might want to look into that. 

Afk timer play a role too. 

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41 minutes ago, Hud said:

That's because players don't want to sell goods for gold

Why don't they want to sell goods for gold is the question and I would say its because they are not confident (and rightly so currently) that they can then take that gold and use it to purchase something they need/want which comes back to the question, why can't they purchase what they need/want???  Its because other players are not posting what they need/want for sale.  Its a vicious cycle.  There was a time in this game where gold had value.  Like Srathor said, there was a time not to long ago where gold had value and there were ek vendor communities competing for business etc so maybe ACE needs to look at what went wrong with that...  Trading and bartering is a terrible way to do business mainly because its not convenient for the customer who is important in this equation.  whats convenient for a customer is having a central location where the customer knows with certainty that if they go there with x amount of money than they will be able to find what they want, quickly and efficiently.  as long as we continue to try to rely on this antiquated trading/bartering system, it will fail....

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2 hours ago, srathor said:

At one point with all the other stuff going on we had 5ish EK's all thriving and competition was going well. 10+ vendors in each.

Every one of the changes since has killed that. Ace might want to look into that. 

5.7 still had many EK's with full tables and many different vendors from players. You had quite a nice setup going till the dev's strangled out EK viability and eventually the whole game economy.

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You know.  While we are talking potential economy which may or may not happen,  if players could get their EKs fully working as a place of commerce again,  it would be nice if they also had a way to tag their EK as a commerce center so when me the consumer is search for one, I can filter out all the non relevant EKs.   Just my two cents.  :)  and don't tell me they can just name it as such.  I am talk I g an actual filter option.  :)  

Edited by Kianna_RuneMaker

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2 hours ago, mystafyi said:

5.7 still had many EK's with full tables and many different vendors from players. You had quite a nice setup going till the dev's strangled out EK viability and eventually the whole game economy.

yeah idk why the devs hate poor eks

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I'll just briefly say my piece about gold again since there's a new thread again.

Gold is unnecessary because dust exists.

Gold for XP did not fix gold. It just slightly delayed its rampant inflation. After a few months in the old system gold was just as worthless as it is now as nobody needed it for xp any more. We have been here before.

If gold is going to exist, it needs to have a necessary and recurring spend for every single player. If my guild provides everything I need I have zero incentive to sell items to other players. I don't need things from player vendors. I don't need things from NPC vendors. I accumulate coins and do nothing with them because I have nothing to do with them.

When the most efficient and successful players simply amass giant piles of currency because there's nothing to spend them on, runaway inflation ensures that new players, or smaller groups of players can't afford what little may be for sale. These are the people for whom the economy is most important, and the people for whom the economy works worst under the freefall of mechanically useless gold.

Vendors are not a good gold sink. Vendor fees and taxes assume gold already has value and that sellers must mark up items to cover the convenience of using the vendor. This means gold is only necessary for people who want to run a vendor. A vendor who is only useful for people who want to obtain more gold than it costs to run a vendor. See the issue here?

When the only reason to acquire gold is to pay the vendor the only profit objective is to keep the vendor alive. This is simply not worth trading the effort required to craft or loot items. I could be selling great purple vessels tricked out with all the optional stuff for thousands and thousands of gold right now. I'm not because I have zero use for thousands and thousands of gold. Unless you can convince other people to sell their hard earned minerals and purple body parts to me for gold which... they also can't use for anything... I will permanently be sitting on a massive pile of looted coins useful only for emptying the shops of people dumb enough to trade work for worthless yellow garbage.

 

Edited by PopeUrban

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