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Ussiah

Dust Based Economy

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And they add in a gold to dust factor and gold has value again. That they control. They could even have a sliding value for it depending on what they want. 

Lots of ways to skin the cat man. 

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2 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

Gold is unnecessary because dust exists.

This is not accurate.  In any economy I have ever seen, gold/currency has only one purpose.  The exchange of items.  Basically currency is an IOU that says I am giving you this item of value with the understanding that I can take this "currency" somewhere else and get what I want.  That's it and to give currency some other function just to add value to it breaks the hole system.

 

2 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

If my guild provides everything I need I have zero incentive to sell items to other players. I don't need things from player vendors. I don't need things from NPC vendors. I accumulate coins and do nothing with them because I have nothing to do with them.

Your part of the problem then.  An economy will not get going until people start posting goods for sale.  At some point someone will post something you want and there you go.  Also.  I can point to many games with stronge economy's where big guilds provide all for their members and those currencys serve only the one purpose and they function fine so it kinda shoots holes all in your theories. :)  

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This is not a theory, its an economic reality that you see playing out in this very game. It isn't that the game won't operate if gold is worthless. The theory is that the economy won't operate. MY guild will be fine. SoloNoob420, however is gradually more screwed as time goes on. That's a huge barrier for retention as time goes on, and that currency will gradually be replaced by something with actual value just as gold coins were replace with stones of jordan in diablo 2.

Player good will is not a balancing mechanism. The honor system doesn't work. It doesn't work to prevent lopsided faction play. It doesn't work to make currency valuable. Runaway inflation and currency that people literally don't want is a problem.

If I have to engage in charity for the economy to work, the economy sucks. I'm not the cause of this problem. I'm a symptom of its underlying issues. If you have to rely on me to act against my own interests for the economy to work, the economy doesn't work.

This is why virtually every MMO exists on a system of gold sinks and faucets, to maintain the value of said currency. Faucets usually come in the form of necessary and recurrent NPC purchases. often new items that are released with new content, consumables, and other such things. In other cases its the only method by which decentralized trade on an auction house can be conducted, and the loot pool is purpose designed to prevent players from obtaining everything they need without interactive with others through said auction house. That gold is then "sunk" out of the economy through trade fees.

When managed poorly (The release diablo 3 AH or the GW2 AH come to mind) the faucets can overpower the sinks and suddenly an item costs twice what it cost a month ago but the mobs still drop the same amount of gold. Its that the value currency represents decays over time to the point that generating currency becomes a waste of time. When your entire economy assumes that currency is the primary medium of trade, this is a systemic problem.

Crowfall has, essentially, not enough sinks to cover its faucets.

Edited by PopeUrban

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I agree that the economy is terrible. In the past I was advocating for lowering the entrance requirements to set up a shop. Currently most trading seems to be done within guilds and EKs. I was advocating for an individual player trade shop, where the user can sit afk for a short time (~1hr) and sell goods in designated areas like towns or keeps. I think EverQuest had something like this in the past, and with the right tweaks I think it could be viable today.

E.g.  Player uses command to set-up shop and their character goes through the animation designating that player is open for trading (I picture a carpet being rolled out with random objects for aesthetics) . Another player can click on that trade shop and see the small selection of goods available and their gold cost. The trade store is only available for an hour duration, and is only available again after x amount of time. 

Its a more of a vision, sure, but I really want to see this game develop a bustling marketplace with player created NPC vendors walking around, vendor stalls that can hold more goods and last longer, and even these individual shops where a player can join the market and sell their goods without needing to invest the time in crafting. I also like the idea of these markets being vulnerable to attack, so added security would be necessary. In this world, gold isnt just used for goods but also for security services.

I'm not sure if its necessary to turn gold into dust, but instead to have a more fluid and accessible trade economy. One that isn't limited to guilds, EKs, and general trade chat; and instead allows for some ideas like I mention above, a visible local proximity chat or "text bubbles", and of course, a larger player-base.

 

 

Edited by ilogos

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17 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

Crowfall has, essentially, not enough sinks to cover its faucets.

Crowfall currently has NO sinks that will pursuade high end players in organized guilds to part with high end goods for gold. Gold is useful for nothing more than starter discs, and food & weapon components from vendors. I get all the food items I need from chests, and a weapon head mold every couple of weeks is not a compelling sink.

Worse, if I did need gold it's easier for me to go get it for myself than to offer goods for your gold. Gold needs to bubble up if high end goods are going to bubble down; I need to want YOUR gold, and the biggest guilds really need to want your gold.

For now, chaining bosses is the best source of both gold and loot. That has to change if gold is going to be an accepted currency.

Edited by VaMei

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Just remove gold and make it a dust economy, simplest solution that covers every scenario. Gold is redundant and valueless, get rid of it.

(I’m at 50k just from being the group looter for two nights of grinding cause no one wanted the gold splits, all I do is feed it into our internal guild discount vendor and sometimes buy folks pack pigs.....)

Edited by Duffy

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9 minutes ago, Duffy said:

Just remove gold and make it a dust economy, simplest solution that covers every scenario. Gold is redundant and valueless, get rid of it.

(I’m at 50k just from being the group looter for two nights of grinding cause no one wanted the gold splits, all I do is feed it into our internal guild discount vendor and sometimes buy folks pack pigs.....)

It doesn't make sense to get rid of things in pre-alpha just because they aren't working yet.


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I did find that one vendor on EU selling purple artifacts for gold. It was a quick way to get from level 20 to 30 in no time. Not sure what the seller will do with the gold though....

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I’ve never seen an infinite supply stable gold video game economy, but I have seen plenty of games that create multiple layers of currencies (intentional and not intentional) and ever inflating gold economies. Why complicate things instead of using an existing universally desired resource that ties heavily into crafting already? Just add some more uses and adjust the dials. (Not to mention it would help fix skinning a bit)

Now is a great time to get rid of something that doesn’t really work, especially when theirs obvious replacement candidate sitting right there and theirs plenty of games and economic examples to look at.

Edited by Duffy

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14 minutes ago, Duffy said:

I’ve never seen an infinite supply stable gold video game economy, but I have seen plenty of games that create multiple layers of currencies (intentional and not intentional) and ever inflating gold economies. Why complicate things instead of using an existing universally desired resource that ties heavily into crafting already? Just add some more uses and adjust the dials. (Not to mention it would help fix skinning a bit)

Now is a great time to get rid of something that doesn’t really work, especially when theirs obvious replacement candidate sitting right there and theirs plenty of games and economic examples to look at.

Can you explain why Dust would be immune to the same supply problems that Gold would have? Because it has a different name?

Gold sinks are planned but not yet implemented. It will be used for taxes and upkeep. Just because the Dust sinks were implemented before the Gold sinks doesn't mean Gold should be removed.

Edited by Jah

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2 hours ago, VaMei said:

Worse, if I did need gold it's easier for me to go get it for myself than to offer goods for your gold. Gold needs to bubble up if high end goods are going to bubble down; I need to want YOUR gold, and the biggest guilds really need to want your gold.

So your saying someone who plays the market place buying and selling goods "NEEDS" peoples money????  He/she doesn't.  They play the market because that in itself is a game for some people.  How much gold can they amass.  A market place/economy is bigger than just whether you the individual "NEED" what ever currency is being used.. :)  

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40 minutes ago, Kianna_RuneMaker said:

So your saying someone who plays the market place buying and selling goods "NEEDS" peoples money????  He/she doesn't.  They play the market because that in itself is a game for some people.  How much gold can they amass.  A market place/economy is bigger than just whether you the individual "NEED" what ever currency is being used.. :)  

After you've amassed your 1st million gold and it still won't buy a set of gear, you realize that all the while you were playing the market game you were the one being played.

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16 hours ago, Kianna_RuneMaker said:

So your saying someone who plays the market place buying and selling goods "NEEDS" peoples money????  He/she doesn't.  They play the market because that in itself is a game for some people.  How much gold can they amass.  A market place/economy is bigger than just whether you the individual "NEED" what ever currency is being used.. :)  

No offense, but you have a tendancy to willfully deny the basic economic principles of supply and demand which makes it very difficult to have this conversation with you. Currency is not knotwood. If you want to be the best knotwood hoarder ever, you can do that, and that's not a problem. The game is in no way designed around knotwood being a fundamental unit of value that must remain somewhat consistant.

This is not the case with gold coins, which is why the need for gold is important. For an item to represent value in an economy it must also maintain a relatively static value. Dust does this handily because its uses in crafting make it an extremely high trade velocity item that stacks in large easily stored amounts. It has very high collective value but very low individual unit value, which makes its value during trades very granular. It is very easy come, very easy go, and crucial to any player that wants to play the game, because it is crucial to all forms of crafting. These are the behaviors of any good MMO currency. Gold has most of this except the needs-backed value.

Gold simply isn't important to anyone after a week of play unless they're running a vendor. Anyone running a vendor can produce enough gold to upkeep that vendor with minimal effort. The remaining giant pile of gold is quite literally useless unless someone like yourself simply desires gold for the sake of having gold. That's great and all, but I've got to ask what good all that gold you've piled does you if you can't spend it on anything. It's like selling your house for monopoly money.

Currency having value means everyone has to agree it has value. The usual way to do that in a video game is to directly enforce that value through game mechanics. People want gold because some stuff costs gold and there's no other way to get it, thus gold has value, thus people are willing to trade their farmed items for gold. Even people that don't need to buy NPC items or services for gold at the current moment are willing to trade their items for gold because the need for gold is so ubiquitous they're guaranteed that anyone they want to trade with will accept gold.

If you offered me five million gold to make a legendary vessel right now I wouldn't take it. I can't spend it anywhere. I'd be wasting a poorly made socksload of materials and gaining nothing in return.

Merely having gold is not wealth. Having gold that can actually buy stuff is wealth. Otherwise you may as well be collecting knotwood.

Supply (of gold) radically outpaces demand (of gold) in the current market.

As everyone has stated, pretty clearly there are two ways to solve this problem. Add more gold sinks (which are already planned) or replace it with dust which already has a much healthier supply/demand based valuation due to its ubiquity in crafting and the importance of crafting to every single player.

Jah and I have had the dust vs. gold conversation at length and I won't go over it again except to say that because faction servers exist, and because EKs are optional I do not feel that property tax and EK costs alone will solve this problem. I could be wrong though.

Edited by PopeUrban

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17 hours ago, Jah said:

Can you explain why Dust would be immune to the same supply problems that Gold would have? Because it has a different name?

Gold sinks are planned but not yet implemented. It will be used for taxes and upkeep. Just because the Dust sinks were implemented before the Gold sinks doesn't mean Gold should be removed.

It’s not wholly immune, but I’m predicting it’s a better model than what they plan for gold based on other games and what’s been mentioned so far. It’s likely they’re creating specific avenues for gold sinks, unfortunately it doesn’t sound like these gold sinks are going to be universal player concerns. And that’s the root problem, if the sinks aren’t universally required, surplus still accumulates.

Dust on the other hand is required for every player to function, someone has to pay the dust cost for gear and that’s a nice consistent drain on the dust supply. Add in whatever gold costs were going to be to instead take dust and we not only have more “optional” sinks on top of the universal crafting ones, it creates some competitive demand for dust for various activities. Such a scenario should create a stabler economy.

This also helps with pricing evaluation as dust value and gear value will always be instrinsically linked.

This is another reason the dropped gear is bad, it undercuts valuation and sinks.

Edited by Duffy

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38 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

Jah and I have had the dust vs. gold conversation at length and I won't go over it again except to say that because faction servers exist, and because EKs are optional I do not feel that property tax and EK costs alone will solve this problem. I could be wrong though.

 

24 minutes ago, Duffy said:

It’s likely they’re creating specific avenues for gold sinks, unfortunately it doesn’t sound like these gold sinks are going to be universal player concerns. And that’s the root problem, if the sinks aren’t universally required, surplus still accumulates.

For gold to really work, it needs to be generally useful to everyone and/or very useful to a few that have stuff everyone else wants.

My hope is that the Dregs and EKs is where mountains of gold go to die and we just haven't seen that piece of the puzzle yet. If maintenance fees/taxes in the dregs & EKs operate in a similar manner to the sovereignty and maintenance fees in EvE, then players will need to get gold from other players in GR and Faction campaigns by selling them stuff that is only found in the dregs or only produced in EKs.

Not that I have any real basis for that hope. With the import/export/embargo restrictions, and potentially very long campaigns, each campaign could be it's own isolated micro economy that is born, grows or withers, and dies within the confines of its world.

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So I hear there is a thread about a dust economy?.....so here I be :)

1) gold will have value in an economy that is supply and demand.

2)Dust will also, but this is whr I split from the "Norm"  if you will.

If you base the economy on dust I WILL break it, guaranteed, im a duster, I live for dust, dust is life(same with embers, but even more so, I cant corner the market on gold, but if you make the currency dust, im laughing all the way to the bank. You have no idea the lengths im willing to go to corner a market...im good at it. With that's said I would make dust VERY hard to get as a NON harvester, and as for farming it I think thr is only like maybe 3-4 peeps out thr that would give me a run for ma money. I cannot do that with gold as gold can be used as a faculty to move and aquire good without a small group of Dicks like myself working to corner all the dust...not a good thing imo…….that's my 2 cents for what its worth. I wont wall o text here like I did in ma other post that Pann started with the new craft/loot drops thing. if you want to read it enjoy I wont copy it here as it is a wall o text.

 

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15 hours ago, Nextelum said:

So I hear there is a thread about a dust economy?.....so here I be :)

1) gold will have value in an economy that is supply and demand.

2)Dust will also, but this is whr I split from the "Norm"  if you will.

If you base the economy on dust I WILL break it, guaranteed, im a duster, I live for dust, dust is life(same with embers, but even more so, I cant corner the market on gold, but if you make the currency dust, im laughing all the way to the bank. You have no idea the lengths im willing to go to corner a market...im good at it. With that's said I would make dust VERY hard to get as a NON harvester, and as for farming it I think thr is only like maybe 3-4 peeps out thr that would give me a run for ma money. I cannot do that with gold as gold can be used as a faculty to move and aquire good without a small group of Dicks like myself working to corner all the dust...not a good thing imo…….that's my 2 cents for what its worth. I wont wall o text here like I did in ma other post that Pann started with the new craft/loot drops thing. if you want to read it enjoy I wont copy it here as it is a wall o text.

 

With a single mighty swing of his basic axe Nextelum destroyed every node in crowfall. The dustpacalypse began that day, and Nextelum sat astride his pile of riches tapping the plus sign on his basic calculator application, the cleverest man alive.

Who among us could have prevented this?

Who among us could have discovered the arcane secrets of elementary school mathematics?

Woe was crowfall in the wake of Nextelum. A man simultaneously in all places at once and powered by the revolutionary idea of equipping items. Never again would any other harvest dust, for all now belonged to the Destroyer of Nodes, Harbinger of Arithmetic, the only man in crowfall with a dust harvesting account.

What secrets lie behind his ascent to power?

What techniques lost to time did he employ?

Why did no one else in the entire game have these revolutionary ideas?


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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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6 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

With a single mighty swing of his basic axe Nextelum destroyed every node in crowfall. The dustpacalypse began that day, and Nextelum sat astride his pile of riches tapping the plus sign on his basic calculator application, the cleverest man alive.

Who among us could have prevented this?

Who among us could have discovered the arcane secrets of elementary school mathematics?

Woe was crowfall in the wake of Nextelum. A man simultaneously in all places at once and powered by the revolutionary idea of equipping items. Never again would any other harvest dust, for all now belonged to the Destroyer of Nodes, Harbinger of Arithmetic, the only man in crowfall with a dust harvesting account.

What secrets lie behind his ascent to power?

What techniques lost to time did he employ?

Why did no one else in the entire game have these revolutionary ideas

Epic.... I love it.. :) ya sometimes I blow smoke :) 

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