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Item Rewards - Official discussion thread

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@jtoddcoleman I understand what your saying. What some of us are asking is can you put into words what the incentive is to be a crafter?

If your reasoning is because “eventually you’ll be able to craft better gear.” Then the question becomes what do you do during the months it’s going to take to get to that point?Because that ability is time gated behind passive training. There are people whose purpose is crafting and mercantilism, what kind of effect will this have on the mercantile EK’s like Srathor’s lawn or Aerynth traders?

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Posted (edited)

Think of it this way.

Crafted green axe might be 100ish damage right now. 

If dropped gear of the same quality is 20% worse than crafted wouldn't that make a green dropped axe 80 damage?

Pretty sure a flawed assembly is higher than 80 damage on a 1H axe. 

Blue is what 110-115 right now? 

That would be 92 damage on a blue dropped axe. That's roughly equivalent to advanced white axe. 

Seems like 20% difference would roughly be the difference in 2 quality tiers and so far they haven't teased anything beyond blue quality dropped which means it'll top out at around advanced white crafted armor/weapons.

That just doesn't seem like a big deal to me. 

Edited by blazzen

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4 minutes ago, Dakoth said:

@jtoddcoleman I understand what your saying. What some of us are asking is can you put into words what the incentive is to be a crafter?

If your reasoning is because “eventually you’ll be able to craft better gear.” Then the question becomes what do you do during the months it’s going to take to get to that point?Because that ability is time gated behind passive training. There are people whose purpose is crafting and mercantilism, what kind of effect will this have on the mercantile EK’s like Srathor’s lawn or Aerynth traders?

You'll be able to craft better gear across the entire progression of the game and, on top of that, still have exclusivity over the best gear in the game.  Your gear will be far more durable, have better stats, and the item effects will be bespoke. 

Todd

 


J Todd Coleman

ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.

Follow us on Twitter @CrowfallGame | Like us on Facebook

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1 hour ago, jtoddcoleman said:

A few points, since there seems to be a lot of confusion and trepidation about this system.

Part of our game vision has always been -- and remains -- fostering interconnection between players of different types.  That hasn't changed.  However, we can't pursue that goal to the exclusion of everything else.  In our current design, we haven't just encouraged interconnectivity, we have enforced it in dozens of ways.  Players aren't just more efficient or effective when working with others, they are completely dependent on others.  And by "completely dependent", I mean that.  If a player doesn't have access to a variety of crafters with a spread of disciplines, they can find themselves in a position where they simply cannot participate in the game.  And this happens early; you hit your first gate within a few hours of gameplay. If a player cannot find equipment of the appropriate type, their game play loop is broken.  This is not theoretical, or conjecture, we can see it happening now.  We can debate the reasons WHY it they might not be able to find that equipment -- I can name a dozen reasons, and I'm sure you can too -- but what cannot be debated is what happens, if a player finds themselves in this situation.

They quit.

Of course, our team will attempt to identify and fix every root cause that leads to this situation.  But that's not enough.  We need to have a design in place to correct for that situation, if and when it arises.  In an open world, there will be scenarios (Durenthal noted one, above) where players may simply choose not to do something.  Whenever a system is 100% dependent on the actions of other players, which we of course can't control, we are in danger of that system failing.  and if that system is critical to the game, that's a problem.  

Randomized, disposable items is a solution to a very real problem.  This system is almost identical to the system that we used on Shadowbane.  I know that it works.

So why don't people like it?  Let's look at the main concerns, as voiced in this thread.  Some of them I agree with, some of them I don't.

Concern #1: "it creates more grind"

I don't agree.  Players can ignore this system completely and use the previous method to harvest and craft items.  Adding an optional way to get something in the game that can be ignored isn't forcing an additional "grind".  Further, since these items can be sacrificed for XP, this system shortcuts the PvE loop (less grind) and since they can be salvaged, it shortcuts the harvesting loop (less grind).  For the last year, we have heard complaints from our PvP-focused backers that the balance of time I get to spend in PvP was being far out-weighed by things I have to do, in order to PvP.  This should dramatically help to address that problem.

Concern #2: "what happens right after a wipe?"

I agree with this concern.  This is a valid issue.  That said, I believe this is an issue that we already had, resurfacing: all of the top-tier items in the game are gated behind months of passive training.  This is definitely a problem with the current design, and once that I've been thinking about for some time (long before loot).  I have ideas for how I think we should address it, and of course I'm open to other ideas.  I absolutely agree that it needs to be resolved before launch.

Concern #3: "this will cause even more strain on the banking system"

This is also valid, and unfortunately I don't have a great answer... yet.  This isn't a design issue; I want more storage.  The reason for the limited bank space / guild storage options is purely technical; the engineering team has been working on a solution for some time I'll be delighted to launch it the moment it is ready.  I get that there is a lot of frustration in this area, and I look forward to the day when this problem is behind us, more than you can imagine.  

Concern #4 (which I imagine is the most critical): "this means that crafters won't be important"

I absolutely understand that crafters are nervous that this will undercut their role in the game.  But there is a difference between being something being "important" to me, and forcing me to be 100% dependency on it.  Food is important.  Oxygen is critical.

We recognize this concern, and we're taking great pains to underscore the importance of crafting.  We aren't going to drop any legendary quality items.  Every attribute that can be found on a loot item can be created via crafting, but not vice versa.  Loot items are disposable; they are made to be used (and used up) very quickly.  They can be salvaged for resources and components.

We are putting these safeguards in place because our intention is still to keep dedicated crafters at the top of the economic food chain.  We want crafting to be a full game experience and parallel advancement path. 

However, we cannot go so far in this pursuit that we risk making a game that is literally broken for everyone else.  

Todd

 

Thank you Todd,

One way you could also make this work better is to go back to allowing all weapon types on all characters.

so If you are an assassin and find a long sword you can use it, etc.

otherwise “finding loot you can use” is still going to take a while and your storage problems will be huge”

or you could have a “fence” npc that buys the stuff you don’t need and sells it to the people who need it to facilitate the drops getting to the people that need them.

or even better.

have the mobs drop what they use and you can hunt the one that uses what you need.


www.lotd.org       pking and siege pvp since 1995

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1 minute ago, PaleOne said:

have the mobs drop what they use and you can hunt the one that uses what you need.

This is what I hope happens.

If I kill an Aracoix assassin I expect to get leather armor and daggers. If I kill a Satyr Templar I should get plate armor and greatsword. Etc. etc. 

The main gap in that plan is Duelists atm. Need a wartribe with duelists monsters :) 

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1 minute ago, blazzen said:

This is what I hope happens.

If I kill an Aracoix assassin I expect to get leather armor and daggers. If I kill a Satyr Templar I should get plate armor and greatsword. Etc. etc. 

The main gap in that plan is Duelists atm. Need a wartribe with duelists monsters :) 

Some of the biggest problems though is promotion classes being semi locked to a damage type

Blackguards don’t use piercing etc.


www.lotd.org       pking and siege pvp since 1995

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7 minutes ago, jtoddcoleman said:

You'll be able to craft better gear across the entire progression of the game and, on top of that, still have exclusivity over the best gear in the game.  Your gear will be far more durable, have better stats, and the item effects will be bespoke. 

Todd

 

So you’re telling us White crafted gear will be better than the rare loot gear?

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, jtoddcoleman said:

You'll be able to craft better gear across the entire progression of the game and, on top of that, still have exclusivity over the best gear in the game.  Your gear will be far more durable, have better stats, and the item effects will be bespoke. 

Todd

 

That sounds like the opposite of what the post implied. It said some % of the best rolls for a particular quality, that means if I can’t meet that yet then my crafting is worthless. And it’s easy to kill high ranking mobs, especially in groups (and you need to to level anything beyond green vessels efficiently) hell we do it naked with just weapons sometimes, so unless your limiting to low quality (which I think is a no from what has been said so far) folks should be able to farm the better quality drops consistently, thus negating a large swath of crafting til those crafters can reach whatever that % of that top quality drop is.

Edited by Duffy

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14 minutes ago, PaleOne said:

Some of the biggest problems though is promotion classes being semi locked to a damage type

Blackguards don’t use piercing etc.

Blackguard might want to kill a Myrmidon type monster to get mail and 1H axes. 

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12 minutes ago, Dakoth said:

So you’re telling us White crafted gear will be better than the rare loot gear?

By my napkin math I think crafted white and dropped blue gear would be roughly equivalent. 

26 minutes ago, blazzen said:

Think of it this way.

Crafted green axe might be 100ish damage right now. 

If dropped gear of the same quality is 20% worse than crafted wouldn't that make a green dropped axe 80 damage?

Pretty sure a flawed assembly is higher than 80 damage on a 1H axe. 

Blue is what 110-115 right now? 

That would be 92 damage on a blue dropped axe. That's roughly equivalent to advanced white axe. 

Seems like 20% difference would roughly be the difference in 2 quality tiers and so far they haven't teased anything beyond blue quality dropped which means it'll top out at around advanced white crafted armor/weapons.

That just doesn't seem like a big deal to me. 

 

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I'm actually glad you guys are adding this.

I really love that it isn't just prefix and suffix, but a 3rd category.

To get all 3 categories to be the exact ones you want could take weeks waiting for a drop in the quality you want.  Plus you need 3 good rolls.  (Unless you add a craft that can tweek these items later)

For example, Say your clan wants to make a centaur spec group and you got 10 guys who need boots with windlords (running speed), Strength and Crit damage.  How long will it take to find 10 sets of that to drop in game as a purple item?  That's why people will still need a crafter to min/max everything in large quanities.

I personally feel you should allow legendary drops from certain mobs.  Make the drop 1% chance to be legendary, 10% chance to have all 3 category's, a 1% chance to get the 3 categories you want, plus a 10% chance to get decent rolls.  You end up with the drop you want every 1 million drops (I did the math).  Plus if it's a pvp item, it's gonna break!  If it's for a crafter...lucky you, you dont have to craft 1 small item of 10 you need.  But you won't have that item in the next campaign if there's no imports!

Examples of drop systems from other games I loved.

Asheron's Call - Thousands of random items would drop.  You would loot macro all week, and your scanner program would pick up maybe 5 good items.  You would than use salvage to tweak those items into an uber item.  90% were low quality, and you wouldnt even waste your time salvaging them.

Shadowbane - Magic items would drop.  I'd get excited identifying them and hoping for some max rings.  Of course your crafters/buildings would be wear 90% of your items would come from.

Diablo - Everytime a legendary item dropped Id get so excited.  99% of the time they were garbage.  But you could salvage them!

 

Anyways, good job and I look forward to testing.  

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28 minutes ago, Dakoth said:

@blazzen your napkin math failed to account for the full wipe that is going to take place at soft launch.

I don't think that will be an issue.  Sure at soft launch wipe everyones training is reset (but there won't be any wipes after that so....) so at first the dropped stuff may be better than crafted but if that is the case I believe it will be a temporary situation as the crafters level up, which they will and it probably won't take long for that to happen.  I personally like the change.  specially if I can salvage these items for recipes, minerals, etc that my crafters can use.  I can assure you, this change will not stop me from crafting amazing gear after soft launch and post said items on vendors for sale to new players at reasonable prices :)    There is another game I played that has a very detailed crafting system with the notion the best stuff you can get in game comes from crafters.  At one point they introduced weapons, armor, etc drops that had very specific stats and at the time the crafting community screamed the same thing "this will make crafters not important!" .....  well... as it turned out, that did not happen.  If anything, it complimented the crafter because you could: 1, take those items to a crafting station and add additional stats based on the crafters skill therefore making the crafter even more important, 2: you could salvage those items down for components and such that the crafter could use to create amazing gear.  All in all it was a great change which the community ultimately came to like so I think  the negatives in this thread are being overblown. :)  

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4 minutes ago, Kianna_RuneMaker said:

I don't think that will be an issue.  Sure at soft launch wipe everyones training is reset (but there won't be any wipes after that so....) so at first the dropped stuff may be better than crafted but if that is the case I believe it will be a temporary situation as the crafters level up, which they will and it probably won't take long for that to happen.  I personally like the change.  specially if I can salvage these items for recipes, minerals, etc that my crafters can use.  I can assure you, this change will not stop me from crafting amazing gear after soft launch and post said items on vendors for sale to new players at reasonable prices :)    There is another game I played that has a very detailed crafting system with the notion the best stuff you can get in game comes from crafters.  At one point they introduced weapons, armor, etc drops that had very specific stats and at the time the crafting community screamed the same thing "this will make crafters not important!" .....  well... as it turned out, that did not happen.  If anything, it complimented the crafter because you could: 1, take those items to a crafting station and add additional stats based on the crafters skill therefore making the crafter even more important, 2: you could salvage those items down for components and such that the crafter could use to create amazing gear.  All in all it was a great change which the community ultimately came to like so I think  the negatives in this thread are being overblown. :)  

You didn’t answer the question of what a crafter is supposed to do until they acquire the training to be able to do that.

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Posted (edited)

If mobs are dropping gear that is rare or even epic, I don't see how crafters will compete with that until they have months of passive training under their belt.

I trust that this issue can be solved, but it won't be easy.

Edited by Jah

IhhQKY6.gif

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34 minutes ago, Dakoth said:

You didn’t answer the question of what a crafter is supposed to do until they acquire the training to be able to do that.

well, that's simple.  :)  collect the material they will need for their trade.  then when their skills get high enough, they can jump right into it.  Its really not so complicated and its really not going to be a real problem.  the crafters will still be relevant.  I am a crafter fyi and I am not concerned about this in the least.  :)    I'm actually looking forward to it cause if I can salvage for recipes and such that will be great :)  

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33 minutes ago, Jah said:

If mobs are dropping gear that is rare or even epic, I don't see how crafters will compete with that until they have months of passive training under their belt.

I trust that this issue can be solved, but it won't be easy.

Like I said before.  These arguments are not new and were not accurate when they were made in those other situations and I believe they are being blown out of proportion here as well.  :)  

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9 minutes ago, dreaden said:

Axing the passive training system and offloading those stats to an expanded talent tree would solve this issue and several others.

The passive system is not the problem.  It has been a success in other situations and has been shown to work.  I think this argument is a sign of the times we live in  ie the instant gratification time.  Everyone wants a quick way to get everything right now, ie power level to the top.  There is a lot to be said for a slower steadier progression in most things.  :)  Of course for the spoiled "I need it right now!"  person, I'm speaking to a wall..  :)  :)  

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7 minutes ago, Kianna_RuneMaker said:

well, that's simple.  :)  collect the material they will need for their trade.  then when their skills get high enough, they can jump right into it.  Its really not so complicated and its really not going to be a real problem.  the crafters will still be relevant.  I am a crafter fyi and I am not concerned about this in the least.  :)    I'm actually looking forward to it cause if I can salvage for recipes and such that will be great :)  

So here is some crowfall history. Before a major content patch there were 3 major professions you would choose from. They were combat, crafting, and harvesting. The problem that so many people ran into was that harvesters and crafters because of having to use their major discipline slots for the discipline runes of their chosen profession were easy targets for the combat oriented profession. To alleviate that some what harvesting disciplines were moved to a complete different slot so as to make it possible to be a good harvester while still being able to pvp.

 

crafters don’t really have that option unless they eliminate the bonus you get from the blacksmithing rune, or move it to the same slot the harvesting runes occupy.

you basically just told crafters to go make themselves easy marks for pvpers, because if you don’t think guilds like Winterblades, Clamstackers, HoA, FoE, UDL, HaX, UxA, and CC aren’t going to have ranging bands of pvpers looking to harvest the harvesters you haven’t been paying close enough attention.

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