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Item Rewards - Official discussion thread

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For armor sure. But if a pattern is made for blade molds. Or you know. White gear fo the shmoes. Or cutting wheels or whatever gripe work you have. After a few weeks with them training in the bunny worlds first and getting their  white vessels trained up i am sure they will be ready for some skill soul injectors to put some swing in their big crafting hooligan. Or books or whatever the metric is. 

Besides as it is now noone will care because there will only be new players because everyone will quit from the tedium and coordinated treadmill/flaming hoop jumping.

They really need a hunger dome transport to the last final seconds of the campaign worlds destruction where the "I want my pvp" purists who just want to attack could go while the others play the thronewar. Hell reward them with some mats and make it an alternative to gathering. Everyone playing and churning up stuff would be good for retention.

 

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7 minutes ago, Dakoth said:

This means right now in order to hit that top level crafting you’re going to have to grind a rare or epic to 30 which takes much longer and is goining to put you in areas where even with these scary low server populations you’re going to encounter pvp, because that’s where the best mats reside.

I don't believe you will need a rare or epic vessel to out craft these drops so that's really not relevant to this discussion. :)  If you did need a rare or epic vessel to out craft these drops, that would indeed be a problem.....  It makes sense to me (and is reasonable) that with the proper training and a white vessel skilled to 30 maybe with the proper gear and disc you should be able to out craft these drops.  That is not a hard requirement to achieve.  If the requirement becomes needing a green or higher quality vessel/gear or what not than I can see the issues with that.  :) 

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For instance @Kianna_RuneMaker Did you know that by crafting in a keep in a campaign as opposed to an EK you receive a thrall buff that allows you to add an extra experimentation pip for every line of experimentation?

thats a huge bonus to a crafter, yet I see very few if any people crafting in the keeps in God’s Reach when Balance and order own the keeps in campaign. Instead they asked for tables in the temple.

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1 minute ago, Dakoth said:

For instance @Kianna_RuneMaker Did you know that by crafting in a keep in a campaign as opposed to an EK you receive a thrall buff that allows you to add an extra experimentation pip for every line of experimentation?

thats a huge bonus to a crafter, yet I see very few if any people crafting in the keeps in God’s Reach when Balance and order own the keeps in campaign. Instead they asked for tables in the temple.

I did know this.  To be honest though I don't really take advantage of that bonus either and I am on the side of balance and am always guaranteed to have a keep or fort to work in.  I like crafting in my EK and the gear I pump out is able to achieve what I want it to achieve so atm I am content with not getting that bonus.  sometimes I jump over there to craft, specially if I am making tools.

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19 minutes ago, Kianna_RuneMaker said:

I don't believe you will need a rare or epic vessel to out craft these drops so that's really not relevant to this discussion. :)  If you did need a rare or epic vessel to out craft these drops, that would indeed be a problem.....  It makes sense to me (and is reasonable) that with the proper training and a white vessel skilled to 30 maybe with the proper gear and disc you should be able to out craft these drops.  That is not a hard requirement to achieve.  If the requirement becomes needing a green or higher quality vessel/gear or what not than I can see the issues with that.  :) 

And you’re basing that belief on what exactly if they are basing values so that crafted items are only “slightly” better? That would require high int for experimentation and high primary crafting stat to max experimentation pips. You aren’t reaching those caps on a white vessel.

most cases, the stat and durability values used on a loot item are about 70-80% of the possible maximum values if made by a skilled crafter who landed good experimentation rolls and used the reroll option when crafting, which is often done on the damage values for crafted weapons. In this way, we are trying to ensure that crafted equipment has a slight advantage in value over looted items.”

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Dakoth said:

And you’re basing that belief on what exactly if they are basing values so that crafted items are only “slightly” better? That would require high int for experimentation and high primary crafting stat to max experimentation pips. You aren’t reaching those caps on a white vessel.

most cases, the stat and durability values used on a loot item are about 70-80% of the possible maximum values if made by a skilled crafter who landed good experimentation rolls and used the reroll option when crafting, which is often done on the damage values for crafted weapons. In this way, we are trying to ensure that crafted equipment has a slight advantage in value over looted items.”

Since they did not specify the quality of vessel and since this change is kinda in line with the recent changes to disc where you can basically get a fully trained white vessel with disc and all pretty easy now but the better stuff is more a grind, it makes sense to assume this change is also only dealing with white vessels.  It would be nice to get a clarification on this though cause if their numbers are based on higher quality vessels pimped out with high quality gear, buffs, etc that would indeed be an issue.  I currently only craft with a white vessel cause the gate to higher quality vessels is to much for me to overcome at the moment...  specially without a market place or convenient economy that allows me to buy what I need from others.

Edited by Kianna_RuneMaker

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Pretty sure Blair has said that he and the designers uses legendary will all amazing rolls to test the maximum possible stats you can get. However, they said in the article it’d be comparable to items of the same quality with full good rolls and rerolls. I’m no crafter, so I don’t know the specifics, but I don’t think you need an epic vessel to get comparable to that


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You Can't Be A Genius, If You Aren't The Slightest Bit Insane.

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4 hours ago, jtoddcoleman said:

To reiterate my previous post: we can tell from the data that there is a significant issue in the gameplay loop where players find they cannot move forward, and they quit. 

Perhaps they are players that came to crowfall for PvP and this is simply the point when they start encountering all the PvE grind you have added since 5.7 and very little of the PvP. Adding more PvE grind to alleviate the gear grind wont entice those PvP players. When did you change the games focus from no grind or leveling?

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24 minutes ago, Kianna_RuneMaker said:

I did know this.  To be honest though I don't really take advantage of that bonus either and I am on the side of balance and am always guaranteed to have a keep or fort to work in.  I like crafting in my EK and the gear I pump out is able to achieve what I want it to achieve so atm I am content with not getting that bonus.  sometimes I jump over there to craft, specially if I am making tools.

I’m having trouble following your logic. You personally don’t craft in a keep for the slight bonus to your crafted gear, even though you also receive points towards the leader board also because the gear you craft in your EK “does what you want”, but you believe the average player will seek out your gear for its slight increase because the drops which are only “slightly” worse than crafted won’t do what they want?

 

 

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Just now, Dakoth said:

I’m having trouble following your logic. You personally don’t craft in a keep for the slight bonus to your crafted gear, even though you also receive points towards the leader board also because the gear you craft in your EK “does what you want”, but you believe the average player will seek out your gear for its slight increase because the drops which are only “slightly” worse than crafted won’t do what they want?

 

 

I never said I would be pushing this quality of gear into the market place.  I don't plan to do that until after final wipe anyway and by than I will have sorted out the vessel issue and some other gear issues.  When I do I plan to offer different qualities of product at different prices to give people with less gold or what ever the currency is at the time, options.  :)  of course all this is subject to change as the game evolves.  nothing is set in stone for me at this time.  right now I am simply talking about what I am doing for my personal self.  nothing more :) 

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34 minutes ago, coolster50 said:

Pretty sure Blair has said that he and the designers uses legendary will all amazing rolls to test the maximum possible stats you can get. However, they said in the article it’d be comparable to items of the same quality with full good rolls and rerolls. I’m no crafter, so I don’t know the specifics, but I don’t think you need an epic vessel to get comparable to that

If you aren’t at cap you aren’t at max value, and you’re less likely to receive all “good” rolls. Hence the need for, and his statement concerning re-rolls. My blacksmithing is at 80% passive training, I’m in all blue gear, on a blue vessel speced for strength and intelligence to maximize my blacksmithing. My gear is all rare with at least rare blacksmithing seals except for my jewelry which I have a legendary neck and 2 epic rings and I still need re-rolls to even come close to “max” out come, and those re-rolls come at a cost of 50 dust, or in the case of epics and legendaries chaos embers.

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48 minutes ago, Kianna_RuneMaker said:

I never said I would be pushing this quality of gear into the market place.  I don't plan to do that until after final wipe anyway and by than I will have sorted out the vessel issue and some other gear issues.  When I do I plan to offer different qualities of product at different prices to give people with less gold or what ever the currency is at the time, options.  :)  of course all this is subject to change as the game evolves.  nothing is set in stone for me at this time.  right now I am simply talking about what I am doing for my personal self.  nothing more :) 

You just used a straw man to defend your stance.

the quotes I used were from the devs article. By design crafted gear will only be “slightly better.” So the gear you will be putting out by design will only be slightly better, and the player will not only have to pay for it but actually have to actively search for it.

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8 hours ago, Duffy said:

We’re at all time low turnout right now, we can’t get people to login and every patch adds something that knocks a few more people out. We can’t keep momentum, now I get that hey it’s pre-alpha and stuff changes, that’s fine, but a lot these changes are still pretty fundamental and add more layers of difficulty to compete and try different things, so people quit. That’s the sort of people you should probably chase, the ones that want to be here and were part of guilds with logistics chains but are just tired of jumping through hoops to try and finish a build or play. They shouldn’t have to make the choice between spending their limited playtime trying to finish a build/level a character or PvPing. That’s whats killing you, not people bailing cause they can’t get some gear and don’t want to talk to anyone or engage in trade.

 

7 hours ago, jtoddcoleman said:

Agreed, we can't chase every rabbit down every rabbit hole.  And we aren't.  We don't make these decisions blindly; we can look at the data we collect .  We can look through the logs and see how far players get into the experience, and what state they are in when they stop playing.  We can also then reach out to them and ask them for reasons why they quit -- which is important qualitative data to add on top of the quantitative because often people don't "quit", they were just logging in to check our progress and intend to come back when the game is more complete.  I also read these forums and social media for at least 2-3 hours a day, to get feedback from you guys.   We don't make changes in a vacuum, even if it appears that way from the outside.

Todd, i think you glanced over his most valid point. Cause this response doesnt even touch it. your most dedicated testers are dropping like flies. the forums are full of "please stop gating us behind grind just to be able to play the game." but every update adds more and more tedious grind. i dont understand how you can claim youre listening/following our feedback. youve got issues that have plagued this game for months, that you guys essentially wont even recognize as issues. the open feedback i get to see of the people who actually play the game does not match what you are pushing on us. 

Grind does not equal content. Let me say that one more time, Grind Does Not Equal Content, especially in a "PvP" based game. Stop trying to appeal to the PvE crowd, they have tons of games to choose from. They are not the ones who will be here day in and day out a year after the game launches.

3 hours ago, mystafyi said:

Perhaps they are players that came to crowfall for PvP and this is simply the point when they start encountering all the PvE grind you have added since 5.7 and very little of the PvP. Adding more PvE grind to alleviate the gear grind wont entice those PvP players. When did you change the games focus from no grind or leveling?

Exactly, the vast majority of players paid to come here for a new flavor of old school open world pvp. the player base was nightly in the 300s before the war tribe grind was introduced. last night at primetime i saw the numbers going from 15-20 in campaign, i think the best i saw all campaign was ~100. that should be alarming to you, that should tell you the direction youre heading is probably not a good one. here is what the last wipe did, it showed players the ridiculous grind just being able to play the game is going to be, the one CF advertises as not existing. If this game launches with this much grind, it will be a short lived game. the PvE is boring and the time locked gates will not appeal to PvPers or Crafters on a mass scale. Especially when your competition is creating games that you get better by doing not waiting. 

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*runs around screaming and waving hands in da air!!!*…...nah just joking. So I just spent awhile reading this entire post, and im about to stick ma foot in ma mouth but w/e. Sharpen your knives im ready for it lol. ALL of this is valid and ALL of this is amazing..by that I mean....the good is good the bad is bad, the response is over the top ty all for jumping on this post and MR Coleman/Mr Blair n gang TY for responding like you have, one of the BEST DEV/Player interactions in all the games ive beta'd or alpha'd. So that's outta the way...I have only ONE yes ONE thing to say......WE NEED A GOLD SINK ECONOMY so the harvesters can harvest, the crafters can craft, and the pvpers can, well they already got their carrot...loot drops. Have vendors that buy low end stuff cheap but enough so its a viable alternative to the low end crafting spectrum. Maybe(yes im going here) An auction house for matts only or some similar concept. Im done. :):):) 

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Ok, so putting gear in as drops is just outrageously stupid. Part of the game is dealing with crap armor and slowly gaining the ability to make great armor. This concept helps with the idea of leaning on other players and making connections in the world. The large underlying issue I see is that you as dev's do not play the game in the same capacity as us normal players. You do not have to work on your crafting, gather the hard to get resources to help out the whole guild, craft and level multiple vessels to get to the all mighty legendary everything. You don't have to share the farming spots and fight with the opposite faction to get the good farming spots for majors, minors and other resources. I'm not being rude but i'm being blunt, get off your game master accounts, slow development for one campaign and just play with us. You guys will see the state of the game, learn a lot and hopefully see the bad choices you guys have made over the last few months. (there is a reason why your population is declining)

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9 hours ago, blazzen said:

This is what I hope happens.

If I kill an Aracoix assassin I expect to get leather armor and daggers. If I kill a Satyr Templar I should get plate armor and greatsword. Etc. etc. 

The main gap in that plan is Duelists atm. Need a wartribe with duelists monsters :) 

hmmm... roaming bands of human pirates and brigands? 

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Another point that I like this change is that it will make open world PvP a little more exciting when you encounter an opponent who has been out there farming PvE for Materials, Disciplines, or whatever. Instead of just finding 10 stacks of 100 white cobble stone we can sort through and maybe find some decent items. I agree that crafters should and will always have advantage, so please everyone give us this chance to not be so dependent on you all. Lets get these items into the economy, focus on the development of Dregs and the economy, and start putting to use those vendor stalls (and hopefully an individual player trading system) to work. 

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Posted (edited)

K so I lied.....but for the better I think.

im gonna drop a lot of different things here in this post as its drawing ALOT of attention.(yes im shameless)

1) MR COLEMAN: take a break dude take a week off or so you have def earned it. ive watched posts of you 3-4? years back near the begining. WTF Happened, I can see the stress and the frustration, hell ALL OF ACE NEEDS A WEEK FREE!. I for one wont gripe...giver.

2)MR BLAIR:Dude how da **** do you keep the math going? KUDO'S. but....(see below) imo(that's all it is) you need to make crafting easier and more viable. I appreciate the grind...but (imo) todays society dosent want old school grind(cept in dregs were it will really count) we want fast n easy(IM NOT ONE!, I LIKE THE GRIND!...just sayin) taking out the 9 layers was awesome but now they(we) have to "farm" war tribes to get the good stuff...maybe not so good.

3) Pann(sorry ill dig up your real name as you have also "earned my respect" 500 coins per war story was an awesome idea.....but....(imo) not enough to generate what you were trying to achieve. Im not sure who is behind the lore...but more "definitive" lore would be awesome, I consider myself a creative writer, and have stuff "published and floating on the ether" and would LOVE to do a written concept of some things(at this point ill say no more, intellectual rights and all that bs)...but need more. So what if you let the founders/backers in on it and hold a contest or something, where we(the players) offer up concepts(im sure there are peeps that would blow me outta the water with ideas) and you as the Devs pick an choose and offer a "unique" reward that can ONLY be earned in this fashion.

4)I'm rambling...yes im aware but plz bear with

5) The rest of ACE...plz thank your bosses for bringing you on this journey...what an epic ride!. And I for one thank you for helping and making this all possible (ya im brown nosing but credit is due where its deserved)

SO WITH THAT ALL SAID...TO THE MEAT OF THE MATTER.....

I said….

2 hours ago, Nextelum said:

WE NEED A GOLD SINK ECONOMY

I also said.....

 

2 hours ago, Nextelum said:

Have vendors that buy low end stuff cheap but enough so its a viable alternative to the low end crafting spectrum.

and last but not least I also said...….

 

2 hours ago, Nextelum said:

Maybe(yes im going here) An auction house for matts only or some similar concept.

k so here I go...

1) if we had a gold sink economy, I think it would make low end crafting worth doing. for example: I like to craft, but with passive skill training(barring multiple accounts) dosent make this a fun thing, without a reward system. so if I could "sell" my "white and or green" items to a "NPC" vendors for a few gp(say 2 gp for a white tool). NOW I get rewarded for crafting those low end items, not much but its something, and us gamers will do a lot for a lil as long as there is "some profit" involved.

2)This is a continuation of 1: make all the "junk" we make/find/gather.... have value...any value in a way that will in the "long run" benefit those who persevere. Not just salvage, but as a "monetary value"...why?...you ask?....ask the pvpers who can sell junk for gold. ask the crafters who made 500 runepicks to get those 20 op picks that blows your mind. Ask the Harvesters who now have a reason to farm white mats. This will generate an ever flowing economy that fits hand in glove with the"Random Loot" drops...which as Mr Coleman stated......allows pvpers and the like to not to "HAVE" to wait on other guild members to do stuff so they can play. IE: stuff will be harvested all over the maps(random pvp?) as now they are rewarded for doing so(again not much...but its a reward :) )and not just r7+ I mean low enders can hit r3's(low end pvp in random spots?) and get something for it..again not much but hey its "something". Those sets of basic armour and weapons and stuff? Crafters go hog, cause now you get paid for it without having to wait to sell(you will take a hit ..but something is more then nothing..am I right?)(also ties into low end pvp) see where im wandering off to? we as players will jump in balls deep for some sorta setup like this...why? Because no matter "WHAT" we are doing in game we benefit in a way that gives us...wait for it....PURPOSE....to do these things.

and now for 3...(I feel the stare's)(I sense the weapons being readied)...but I will not back off......so first complaint I can see: AUCTION HOUSE?????? ARE YOU STUPID?....maybe..but lets run with this for a second....IF and ONLY IF its a materials ONLY auction house then IMO this gives a reason to SPECIALIZE into harvesting...as now your product reaches a LARGER market.

WHAT MARKET ARE YOU RANTING ABOUT? well if in Factions we had an auction house in our temple.....harvesters don't have to wait on crafters to make money, crafters can get what they need ...WHEN they need....for a price....and then "make stuff "to sell to npc vendors"for a slight mark up value to make it "worth it" and better yet now there is competition for the "high" end mats. Now take it to the next step...set up a universal AH in "free" city so now enemy harvesters can compete for their goods(ARE U INSANE????? SELL TO THE ENEMY???) ...well yes and no...see what if your playing chaos faction and not a lot of harvesters are active? what if ORDER is going HAM in the gully's in 10 man harvesting grps(pvp anyone)rather then let order uncle bob you in the resource department, now they can sell their goods and make money. (BUT HOW DOES THAT HELP CHAOS?) well now if they(chaos) are combat heavy as a faction then they can farm war tribes(pvp anyone) and sell the junk for money that then in turn can be used to "buy" mats that can be given to crafters to craft gear.....and we know that the stock brokers are lurking so now you generate an auction house war...which generates movability of product. BUUUUUT (how many saw this coming >:) ) in order to "use" the AH in "free city" you HAVE to transport them thr(the goods that is)(pvp anyone).

BUT WTF ABOUT THE PLAYER VENDORS???????....what about them? They are only improved not hindered by all of this. If the AH is MATERIAL BASED ONLY! ...how does this affect the player driven crafting economy? IMO...sets it on fire with a healthy dose of WAHOO...lets grind......PVPERS making gold just killing and looting...but they want the "GOOD" gear not some random drop(min/maxers unite)well that gold they "earn" from farming plus all the other good stuff can now also be used to "buy" the good stuff without locking the crafters to a small market. This in turn validates the harvesting market. WITHOUT damaging the player crafting economy. Everyone wins, no waiting, sense of purpose, WANTING to play now, HAVING a reason to play now, can I generate player interest from this...CUSTERED YA!, maybe even INCREASE (god forbid) the player base?..YUP(IMO), harvesters happy?..check, crafters happy? check, pvpers happy?...check, players happy? check. :)

and now for the hammer >:)

what the EFF about embargo etc?

well ALL of the above mentioned CAN BE DONE IN CAMP! gives purpose to the camp, keeps and forts keep them viable as the crafting centers...…..forces transportation of goods in game...pvp anyone?

WHAT ABOUT END OF CAMP?? and you still have not answered on the embargo part!!!!!!

FULL STEAM AHEAD!!!!!! so first the embargo aspect.....don't change anything imo DEVS you have the ball run with it. pvp anyone? buuuuut with a twist. First any "goods/Matts" etc that players want still must follow the embargo rules to "get" them outta camp and into ek. EZ.

BUT THE EKS ARNT WORTH IT IF THE IMPORT/EXPORT RULE SET is implemented.

o.0 :)now the twist......ANY "gold" EARNED during the campaign gets a "free" pass outta camp.

THAT HAS TO BE THE MOST IDIOTIC IDEA I HAVE HEARD ...EVER!

Why? ...you just made the ENTIRE EK ECONOMY VIABLE!!!!!!...think about it....first off player ek vendors sell both mats and gear and ,well everything.

gold changes hands

those that used up their embargo slots to bring the good stuff out of camp?...now have a reason to make vendors...to sell their loot...to make gold...to spend on stuff....for the next camp.....rinse repeat.....DEVS win...Players win....GAME WINS....imo, my very very humble opinion.

and FEAR NOT! I see the foaming at the mouth starting...with ALL this gold flying around.....certain "players" will be able to out level the "main flock" generating an imbalance in game play......my turn....are u daft?....just take gold outta the xp equation...full stop. Gives more meaning to harvesting.oh and crafting oh and pvp and sacrificing items?...still viable...even more so now. oh and killing crafting and harvesting each gen thr own xp values? WHY THEN USE GOLD TO XP?

thank you for reading my rant if your still here.....I only did this for love of the game...plz if I missed anything fire away.

grammer Nazis be gentle

haters be diplomatic

DEVS keep the dream alive :)

players TY for with out us this would not be a thing :)

Edited by Nextelum

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I don't thing developing world pvp much more now will be good target. Economy development need Market place that players can buy/sell and need gathers and crafters , so players can go and enjoy pvp world. Many players specially new players will start in pve zones and old players will enjoy pvp and they will have to go pve for gathering. I recommend to add contents and activities in PVE zone sooner is better for Growth of the Community.😮

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