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how to rebuild passive tree


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14 hours ago, veeshan said:

It has worked though in the past. Project 1999 a classic everquest emulator ip blocks you to one account. You can request more account through the ip which they allow under the condition it for another player to use and no multiboxing. If your the caught multiboxing you get the ban hammer. 

Was to prevent the game being player how is was not intended to be played. And it maintained a healthy population for years now considering it a emulator of a game from 1999 that hasn't had and any added content 

Yeah, an emulator.  Emulators typically aren't companies trying to generate revenue and operate as successful businesses.

Project 1999 crew aren't the best examples to use here either, given their history and sketchy policies/spyware usage.

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There are a lot of good mechanics and ideas in crowfall, and the game is full of fun. But the time based passive tree is surely a bad design. When i started playing crowfall, i took 1 week of hol

The early one catches the worm. If you are a bird, this may be good. If you are a fish, this may be bad. Both not necessarily. On the other side, those who come later don't have to live through all th

There is a catch-up mechanism planned ("skill tomes" were the first published idea). But since it will only matter some time after launch, of course it's no something we will see or be able to test pr

I see where the passive skill tree training comes from. It's a great idea, but it needs to be more hybrid so casual players can benefit from it and hardcore players can get more out of it. Hear me out:

1. The passive skill tree should be 50% time based and 50% skill based. What i mean is gathering whatever resource will ALSO give you exploration skill points. Crafting gives you skill points. In this manner, players who are casual will still benefit from a lot of skill points but hardcore players can be rewarded for putting in so much effort.

2. Now, another idea. I think Combat skill points should be earned from 50% time, and 50 % fighting BUT PVP only. The current state of the game doesn't give much incentive for PVP. IF the only way to level up your combat skill tree is PVP, then players will be more inclined to it.

Edited by Kameleon
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4 hours ago, Kameleon said:

2. Now, another idea. I think Combat skill points should be earned from 50% time, and 50 % fighting BUT PVP only. The current state of the game doesn't give much incentive for PVP. IF the only way to level up your combat skill tree is PVP, then players will be more inclined to it.

With the current state of PvP, I would foresee my alts getting slaughtered over and over in order to bypass that headache. 

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2 hours ago, mystafyi said:

With the current state of PvP, I would foresee my alts getting slaughtered over and over in order to bypass that headache. 

If any PvP gave you points toward the passive tree, you could fight on your main and earn the perks for all your characters, yeah? no need to subject your alts to the slaughterhouse as long as the passive trees remain account-wide.

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this is so ridiculous, a bunch of players with 4 accounts, telling you, you have to be patient to achieve something and don't support play to win, while having 4 accounts for passive skill maximizing. This is hypocrisy at its best.

The game as it is right now just shouldn't claim to be PvP bases since it isn't. It's based on time gating.
PvP means the player with higher skill wins. And not, whoever pays, has 4 accounts, or started playing early enough.

Right now this game is zero skill based.

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I am quite new to the game, and I have read a bunch of stuff on the passive skill tree - issues and complaints and have some thoughts. I am really enjoying this system versus the old fashioned video game method of - chop a tree for 3 hours, craft 1000 bows, gain 13.7 points in skill (UO). I can't be mad that a person that has been playing since the beginning has over time unlocked more points to spend than me. I'm gaining points now, I chose to start now. People seem to want to out grind everyone - chop at trees for 12 hours and become a GM Lumberjacker. I get it - the fruits of your labor are not necessarily visible by normal standards. However - I started looking at harvesting and crafting a different way. Once my character is leveled, I can take Discs that increase my abilities. Also minor discs. Then I can make the best gear to my ability to harvest resources. I'll get some green, and maybe even some blue. Then I can go and craft a little bit better gear for harvest. Then I can go out and have a better chance of getting green and blue resources. Also additional items. All the while I'm selling stuff and buying filler items or whatever - my point is you can still grind it out and work at it.

You don't gain permanent skill points by harvesting or crafting - however you do gain materials to build better tools that give you more skill points. Also while you sleep or at work you are gaining passive points to spend to progress further. Just keep harvesting, keep building better tools and gear... Maybe I'm missing something here. Every time I go our to harvest stuff, I come back with better stuff than I did the previous time.

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7 hours ago, hurt said:

Maybe I'm missing something here. Every time I go our to harvest stuff, I come back with better stuff than I did the previous time.

The simple fact you would be better off letting skills increase over time while playing other games. Crafting/harvesting is pretty much dictated by time gated skills.

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On 9/12/2019 at 8:44 PM, kim-lee said:

this is so ridiculous, a bunch of players with 4 accounts, telling you, you have to be patient to achieve something and don't support play to win, while having 4 accounts for passive skill maximizing. This is hypocrisy at its best.

The game as it is right now just shouldn't claim to be PvP bases since it isn't. It's based on time gating.
PvP means the player with higher skill wins. And not, whoever pays, has 4 accounts, or started playing early enough.

Right now this game is zero skill based.

There is definitely skill needed to excel in this game model, however "skill" comes in many forms. I value mechanical and strategy. Some value account age and grinding. Everyone should value good comms, leadership, and organization. Not sure anyone should praise lopsided numbers.

Early on it seemed like ACE would going for a combat system that rewarded aim, positioning, and strategic use of powers. Unfortunately none of that seems very true and over time they've made these less and less important. Wouldn't say we can just faceroll to victory, but they aren't really pushing the limits at all and barely requiring much from players.

Some seem perfectly fine with the game model being about out grinding, out numbering, out gearing the enemy along with ganking others to prevent them from matching those areas as well. This seems to be a big part of the "skill" in this game. 

I don't come to MMOs looking for eSport competitive systems so it isn't surprising but I do wish they raised the bar a bit. That would require too much at this point though so I don't see it changing much.

Will be interesting to see how things turn out when Beta rolls around and hopefully more people come in. Along with a wipe of everything including passive training and it turned on at snail speed. Even with multiple accounts, I believe this system is going to be a pain for everyone and progress will be slow. Which is fine if the rest of the game itself is entertaining. Getting Legendary a month in shouldn't be the main focus. The rest of the game needs a lot of work though.

Edited by APE

 


 

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@APE

at least people start to admit that passive training may keeps players away.

Forcing players to have multiple accounts to stay competitive is pay to win.

But my actual point is: Skill-Based also refers to a plain playing field, where you don't have to play years to max out your stats. Skill-Based also means, that players should have the same stats in combat... at least it shouldn't take more than 2-3 days to max out your character. Anything else will lead to a very limited amount of players... with multiple accounts playing this game since pre alpha 24/7.

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3 hours ago, kim-lee said:

@APE

at least people start to admit that passive training may keeps players away.

Forcing players to have multiple accounts to stay competitive is pay to win.

But my actual point is: Skill-Based also refers to a plain playing field, where you don't have to play years to max out your stats. Skill-Based also means, that players should have the same stats in combat... at least it shouldn't take more than 2-3 days to max out your character. Anything else will lead to a very limited amount of players... with multiple accounts playing this game since pre alpha 24/7.

Individuals are forced to have multiple accounts if they refuse to join a guild. 

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9 hours ago, kim-lee said:

@APE

at least people start to admit that passive training may keeps players away.

Forcing players to have multiple accounts to stay competitive is pay to win.

But my actual point is: Skill-Based also refers to a plain playing field, where you don't have to play years to max out your stats. Skill-Based also means, that players should have the same stats in combat... at least it shouldn't take more than 2-3 days to max out your character. Anything else will lead to a very limited amount of players... with multiple accounts playing this game since pre alpha 24/7.

What you want isn't going to happen.

 


 

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14 hours ago, kim-lee said:

 

at least people start to admit that passive training may keeps players away.

Forcing players to have multiple accounts to stay competitive is pay to win.

Skill-Based also means, that players should have the same stats in combat

I agree that the passive training has a fault in that it can incentivize a player not to play. It also has the benefit of unlike any other MMO I don't feel like every moment I'm not playing I'm falling behind. 

"Forcing players to have multiple accounts". Not in any way at all is this true.  Having more accounts doesn't make your combat tree move faster.   You may need to buy things from other players, or better yet Join a guild to get the best in every proffesion.  But if you want to be a solo player who does it all them self, MMO's really aren't the game for you.  

"Skill based means players should have the same stats". Again, foolish.  Why even have stats then? Why have any sort of progression if it's all about getting to the cookie cutter end in 3 hours?  Skills come in many different flavors as @APE pointed out.  MMO's work best when you have to combine players with different skills to form that cohesive unit.

Sounds like you are after a moba or some sort of match made game Kim-Lee and not this game.  This game is absolutely meant to simulate life and particularly the power struggles in life, and that hasn't been fair since the first dude put a sharp rock on the end of his stick. 

-The Legion shall forever be reborn

 

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On 9/13/2019 at 6:49 AM, hurt said:

I started looking at harvesting and crafting a different way. Once my character is leveled, I can take Discs that increase my abilities. Also minor discs. Then I can make the best gear to my ability to harvest resources. I'll get some green, and maybe even some blue. Then I can go and craft a little bit better gear for harvest. Then I can go out and have a better chance of getting green and blue resources. Also additional items. All the while I'm selling stuff and buying filler items or whatever - my point is you can still grind it out and work at it.

You don't gain permanent skill points by harvesting or crafting - however you do gain materials to build better tools that give you more skill points. Also while you sleep or at work you are gaining passive points to spend to progress further. Just keep harvesting, keep building better tools and gear... Maybe I'm missing something here. Every time I go our to harvest stuff, I come back with better stuff than I did the previous time.

You are not missing anything, in fact you win 🏆 because this is is how the game is designed to be played!

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  • 1 month later...

While I'm not on board with ditching combat from the leveling system, I really like the idea of having a " group bonuses" passive tree to go along with "combat", "crafting", and "exploration".  These nodes would be specific to "group" situations, either via participation in a guild (that's one branch of the tree) or via having people physically within X meters of your avatar (a second branch of that tree).  this would be huge with group mining.  Additionally, as Crowfall is obviously interested in having people recruit their friends, having an entire tree dedicated to giving you "group bonuses" would further encourage recruitment.

Edited by AngelikMayhem
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2 hours ago, AngelikMayhem said:

While I'm not on board with ditching combat from the leveling system, I really like the idea of having a " group bonuses" passive tree to go along with "combat", "crafting", and "exploration".  These nodes would be specific to "group" situations, either via participation in a guild (that's one branch of the tree) or via having people physically within X meters of your avatar (a second branch of that tree).  this would be huge with group mining.  Additionally, as Crowfall is obviously interested in having people recruit their friends, having an entire tree dedicated to giving you "group bonuses" would further encourage recruitment.

That’s the Leadership tree, it’s already in there under Explore

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On 6/28/2019 at 5:19 AM, Kraahk said:

There is a catch-up mechanism planned ("skill tomes" were the first published idea). But since it will only matter some time after launch, of course it's no something we will see or be able to test prior to launch.

Crowfall want's people to make decisions and that those decisions will be important. Fighting, Gathering, Crafting ... choose two, your decision, and live with it. Removing the combat tree would remove this whole principle. So it's more than unlikely to happen.

The game also doesn't need to be balanced. Some people will be better, some decisions will be better. That's just how it is. Besides, the skill have some influence, but not the biggest. They are not as important as it may look like.

Anyways, it's always good to share concerns and to participate in the community, so thanks for that. And i hope you'll participate in the catch-up mechanism tests and discussions, once we get there.

"There is a catch-up mechanism planned ("skill tomes" were the first published idea). But since it will only matter some time after launch, of course it's no something we will see or be able to test prior to launch."

This is going to doom the game I already have some friends who don't want to get involved because of this. I'm not worried about it and most backers aren't worried about it because we will have been here from day one. but this WILL deter new players from joining.

The game also doesn't need to be balanced. Some people will be better, some decisions will be better. That's just how it is. Besides, the skill have some influence, but not the biggest. They are not as important as it may look like.

I agree with you hear but I do agree with he OP that the imbalance should not be behind a timed passive skill tree it needs to be something that a player can physically work toward and a bit faster. Some one should not have to wait a year or more to be on par with another player.

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1 hour ago, bignick22000 said:

This is going to doom the game I already have some friends who don't want to get involved because of this. I'm not worried about it and most backers aren't worried about it because we will have been here from day one. but this WILL deter new players from joining.

Thanks for the feedback.

Could you be more precise about what exactely seems to drive away some of your friends?

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On 11/3/2019 at 10:00 AM, Kraahk said:

Thanks for the feedback.

Could you be more precise about what exactely seems to drive away some of your friends?

So did go an ask them, and here where the responses. For reference this is from a Group of Friends on a D&D discord channel.

#1 This was popular with almost my entire group, it was the feeling of perpetually being behind, no matter what you do you won't catch up to that one guy who started playing a year  
      before you.

#2 Another is the idea that you get something for doing nothing. A player will log in and just have experience to spend without working on a specific skill.

#3 and the last one is that they don't believe they will have a decent plan for a "Catch up". A good comment a friend of mine made was if you can be caught up why even have the
     passive training in the first place.

 

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1 hour ago, bignick22000 said:

#1 This was popular with almost my entire group, it was the feeling of perpetually being behind, no matter what you do you won't catch up to that one guy who started playing a year  
      before you.

The passive system should be recognized as a passive gap closer. Nothing should be unreachable during the progression of a campaigm assuming hard work, cooperarion, and dedication to a shared goal will still allow you to stay competitive without the need to exclusively rely on your personal progression through the passive training.

1 hour ago, bignick22000 said:

#2 Another is the idea that you get something for doing nothing. A player will log in and just have experience to spend without working on a specific skill.

It is in essence a veteran system that will help you cover the gaps of your desired playstyle to help expedite reaching your skill and attribute caps. You would otherwise be that much more reliant on grinding out to obtain gear and consumables that a long invested player will be able to ignore at the start of a campaign or forego when considering what to obtain once gaining access to higher tiers of gear when the campaign has progressed.

1 hour ago, bignick22000 said:

#3 and the last one is that they don't believe they will have a decent plan for a "Catch up". A good comment a friend of mine made was if you can be caught up why even have the
     passive training in the first place.

A catch up mechanic would be there to allow players the ability to work to catch up as compared to the long term players that accrued it automatically over time. It makes sense because that way there will theoretically never be a statistical advantage that is unattainable solely due to your join date.

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