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oneply

Ballistas are too OP

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Ballistas need to be toned down or reworked. Between the guards and the ballistas its just too hard for the attackers to take a keep without overwhelming numbers (something neither side has). 

On 6/29/2019 at 10:31 AM, Phr00t said:

Mk IV Ballista are determining the outcome of keep sieges.

Defenders can place these all along interior walls and fire within their own walls. The ground Fire AOE damage ability has NO SPELL EFFECT or visual indicator on the ground and will kill you if you're not watching your health bar, in under 3 seconds. When defenders are not bothering to engage attackers outside of walls while siege equipment is down, because they have a much easier time of defeating them by placing a couple ballista, as well as having a local respawn point and army-ranger sniper guards, balance of power is too heavily skewed towards keep defenders at this time.

 

Proposed solution: Ballista can only be placed in an 'outward' orientation on keep walls, and cannot be rotated such that they are capable of firing beyond a 180degree arc. This should allow the interior most walls to have angles that allow ballista to fire at small choke points such as destroyed walls, while not allowing a ballista to solo defend the tree of life from a safe distance. 

As well, please fix the spell effect and/or reduce the damage of the Fire AOE, the TTK is much too fast.

i would say 270 degrees like PaleOne suggested in the thread i pulled this from as well. or just not able to fire inside. 

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Posted (edited)

IMO, the MK-IV should be removed from play until Ace is able to allocate the dev cycles to review the functionality of siege weapons and implement a balance pass.

The level of damage from the MK-IV's AOEs, the lack of indication, and the ability to fire it into the tree room all work together to make it the single best defense for a keep. It is damaging to the game.

It's been so long since I've made anything other than a MK-IV that I don't even remember what the others do. If the IV is removed, will another  model be almost as bad?

Edited by VaMei

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1 hour ago, VaMei said:

It's been so long since I've made anything other than a MK-IV that I don't even remember what the others do. If the IV is removed, will another  model be almost as bad?

Make some up. We’ll find out later tonight. 

But I don’t remember them being anywhere near as effective/damaging 

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I believe only Mark 4 has the Fire aoe. The other abilities are a singular hit AOE damage shot, a healing bolt and not sure the third. 

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Turn off all FF protection from all siege gear. Point it at the tree room, and watch your tree burn. 

:)

I think that might be reasonable. I think it's the personal powers that have built with group limit sizes in mind. Siege gear could easily be designed around the idea you could do as much damage to your side as theirs if your not careful.

 

 

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16 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Siege gear could easily be designed around the idea you could do as much damage to your side as theirs if your not careful.

If we were talking about the Dregs I would absolutely be onboard with friendly fire damage from artillery, but in a factions campaign having cross faction alts abuse it or random noob misuse it would be a bad thing.

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Just now, VaMei said:

If we were talking about the Dregs I would absolutely be onboard with friendly fire damage from artillery, but in a factions campaign having cross faction alts abuse it or random noob misuse it would be a bad thing.

Yup, that's a problem for factions.

Can't put in any sharp objects the kids can poke their eyes out with.

 

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Wipe the room including the tree of all enemies and then plant your own tree to ends the siege and laugh at the fools that’s tried to attack you? Or all fights are now determined by whoever gets control of the walls and can mount ballistas to attack the tree. Would be weird paradigm shift. Plus anyone of your side caught in the blast just respawns a few feet away.

Siege equipment overall needs some work. As counter intuitive as it seems I think the viable solution given mechanic restrictions (I doubt they can easily lock rotation angles) is to make siege equipment mostly ineffective against players and only effective as counters to each other. But they also need more life expectancy, this instant destruction in either direction just ain’t working well.

Such a change might also require a limit on the number of siege pieces an attacker can use, but I figure that could be accomplished with the token limits I assume exist but aren’t active on the campaign worlds.

Downside to that is that Trebs become stronger again as the only counter to them is to have more/better troops, which usually means you win regardless of the wall coming down or not.

Interesting problems to solve.


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15 minutes ago, dolmar said:

most of my team is running it. With that said. it does not last for ever. 

Also this is a better case for "why is elementalist a bit overpowered" than "Ballistas are fine"

Both things are true, and neither is all that healthy for siege in its current state.


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4 hours ago, Duffy said:

Siege equipment overall needs some work. As counter intuitive as it seems I think the viable solution given mechanic restrictions (I doubt they can easily lock rotation angles) is to make siege equipment mostly ineffective against players and only effective as counters to each other. But they also need more life expectancy, this instant destruction in e

The attacker being able to use ballista inside the castle is dumb.

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+1.  I hate how every siege revolves around who can control the ballista shots and who has enough lag/framedrops/temporary lapse in attention to die to fire boxes.  

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Posted (edited)

I think people are getting a little over dramatic about ballista.  

They add a unique aspect to the game as both attacker and defender can use them and fire them anywhere.  It gives commanders another opportunity and/or threat to consider.

Removing their ability to fire inward just makes siege more boring and linear.

 

It also punishes poor organization and poor comp.  If your group is not together or you didn’t bring a healer then you must be super aware and get out of it quickly and bandage.   I think this is what people most dislike because they want the game tailored to their bad play.

 

I do think the dmg is a bit overtuned but not in how much dmg it does just in how quickly it does it.

 

My recommendation would be:

1) make the graphic extremely visible as far as where it is.

2) add about a 1 second delay before damage starts.  A good way to do this would be to slow down the projectile and give its target area a separate graphic before it hits.  Effectively, give a unit 1 second to dodge out of the area.  Audio queues would also be good.

3) take the damage it causes and spread that over about twice the duration.

 

People complaining about needing superior numbers to take a keep and keep defenders not coming outside to the keep need to spend like 5 seconds applying some critical thought to those complaints.  And keeps can be taken by fewer numbers already.  There’s videos out there showing this.  

 

Lastly, guards are fine.  You can take an undefended keep easily with a healer and 2-3 dps.  Guards are easily avoided, managed, killed or out-healed.  They do, however, punish bad comp and bad position, but again, I think people want the game to git bad instead of them having to git gud.

Edited by Ble

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1 hour ago, Ble said:

I think people are getting a little over dramatic about ballista.  

They add a unique aspect to the game as both attacker and defender can use them and fire them anywhere.  It gives commanders another opportunity and/or threat to consider.

Removing their ability to fire inward just makes siege more boring and linear.

 

It also punishes poor organization and poor comp.  If your group is not together or you didn’t bring a healer then you must be super aware and get out of it quickly and bandage.   I think this is what people most dislike because they want the game tailored to their bad play.

 

I do think the dmg is a bit overtuned but not in how much dmg it does just in how quickly it does it.

 

My recommendation would be:

1) make the graphic extremely visible as far as where it is.

2) add about a 1 second delay before damage starts.  A good way to do this would be to slow down the projectile and give its target area a separate graphic before it hits.  Effectively, give a unit 1 second to dodge out of the area.  Audio queues would also be good.

3) take the damage it causes and spread that over about twice the duration.

 

People complaining about needing superior numbers to take a keep and keep defenders not coming outside to the keep need to spend like 5 seconds applying some critical thought to those complaints.  And keeps can be taken by fewer numbers already.  There’s videos out there showing this.  

 

Lastly, guards are fine.  You can take an undefended keep easily with a healer and 2-3 dps.  Guards are easily avoided, managed, killed or out-healed.  They do, however, punish bad comp and bad position, but again, I think people want the game to git bad instead of them having to git gud.

All this, but I'd like to add:

Siege weapons should deal unique typed damage "siege" rather than damage that fits existing resist profiles. The ability to gear for siege weapon resistance kind of neuters their utility as mass combat antipersonnel devices. Siege weapon damage should be "equal opportunity".

Siege weapons should never be able to damage the magic trees directly, nor should any attack from outside its zone of effect. TBH I'm not sure if this is still the case. I'm totally fine with shooting in to the tree room, more dynamic elements to force splits during a siege is a good thing. Go blow up the ballista. Having the ability to kill the tree without sending attackers in to the "danger zone" bothers me and kind of craps on area denial specs like templars who are supposed to really shine in this niche. Again this should encourage splits and break up the boring meta of sending your entire force to hit the tree.

We need to cap incoming damage to trees. A large enough force can take down a ToL way too fast. Defenders should have enough time to get wiped, rez and return at least once if not multiple times before the tree falls. Uncapped damage to bane trees is fine IMO, as the bane trees come in multiples and require the defenders to abandon their advantage to hit them. Again, this is about splits. More vulnerable/numerous bane trees encourage defender splits and as such encourage attacker splits to counter them. Capping bane trees would pretty much require a defender time out victory by default, and cause attackers to care far less about defending them if the option of rushing the ToL exists.


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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Ble said:

I think people are getting a little over dramatic about ballista.  

They add a unique aspect to the game as both attacker and defender can use them and fire them anywhere.  It gives commanders another opportunity and/or threat to consider.

Removing their ability to fire inward just makes siege more boring and linear.

 

It also punishes poor organization and poor comp.  If your group is not together or you didn’t bring a healer then you must be super aware and get out of it quickly and bandage.   I think this is what people most dislike because they want the game tailored to their bad play.

 

I do think the dmg is a bit overtuned but not in how much dmg it does just in how quickly it does it.

 

My recommendation would be:

1) make the graphic extremely visible as far as where it is.

2) add about a 1 second delay before damage starts.  A good way to do this would be to slow down the projectile and give its target area a separate graphic before it hits.  Effectively, give a unit 1 second to dodge out of the area.  Audio queues would also be good.

3) take the damage it causes and spread that over about twice the duration.

 

People complaining about needing superior numbers to take a keep and keep defenders not coming outside to the keep need to spend like 5 seconds applying some critical thought to those complaints.  And keeps can be taken by fewer numbers already.  There’s videos out there showing this.  

 

Lastly, guards are fine.  You can take an undefended keep easily with a healer and 2-3 dps.  Guards are easily avoided, managed, killed or out-healed.  They do, however, punish bad comp and bad position, but again, I think people want the game to git bad instead of them having to git gud.

I'd be fine with this solution.  One option I proposed besides bringing the visual back is having the AoE grow over 1 second or something, so it starts in the middle as a small area and grows to it's full length as the fire spreads. However I don't think ACE has that tech in the game so it'd take more feature work so there are simpler solutions.

It isn't any one particular thing about ballista that is an issue, it is the combination of all of it that causes the gameplay behavior around it.  We care more about ballista than the enemy and I spend more time staring at my HP and thinking about where the ballista are than anything else. 

 

I'm tired of having people in my group go "wait what why did I just suddenly fall over and die" because someone stealther placed a ballista in some blind spot (good gameplay that makes siege engines interesting) and fire a shot we can't see the effect of (bad) and killed them before they even realize they were taking damage (bad). This effect worsens with performance too. If you get into a fight where the framerates chugs you are pretty much guaranteed to be custarded even if you are poised to avoid death by ballista. I have a decent PC so this isn't an issue for me personally but I have seen it happen to others.

Edited by Hungry

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As someone who's died to ballistas around 100 times, I consider myself somewhat of an expert. Here are the problems with the current state of ballistas:

1) The Graphics - There is no indication that you are about to die... just the pain of death. Before you realize you're being spam fired by ballistas, YOU'RE ALREADY DEAD! I don't see this as a huge problem. I think people need to "git gud" and learn to dodge the invisible fire @ 800+ Damage a tick.

2) The Different Types - It's really frustrating to have all these different types of ballistas. Some go WHOOOOOOOSH BOOM and some go WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM *CRACKLE*(firesound). Ouchie. Again, it's not that bad, we really need to work on derp gitgud de derping.

3) My face - When they dun get pointed and fired at me my face hurtz. The trajectory of the missles when fired 4 degrees north of my beer belly at the tree room dun derp diddly made my face hurt. Derk dar derp. Derp.

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7 hours ago, Hungry said:

I'm tired of having people in my group go "wait what why did I just suddenly fall over and die" because someone stealther placed a ballista in some blind spot (good gameplay that makes siege engines interesting) and fire a shot we can't see the effect of (bad) and killed them before they even realize they were taking damage (bad). This effect worsens with performance too. If you get into a fight where the framerates chugs you are pretty much guaranteed to be custarded even if you are poised to avoid death by ballista. I have a decent PC so this isn't an issue for me personally but I have seen it happen to others.

The problem isn't lack of effect rings, its being able to sneak onto a castle walls and pull a ballista and ammo out of your buttocks and mount it on the enemy walls to use inwards at angles.

Small and large ballista for reference. 

p6291202.jpg

p6260972.jpg

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