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coolster50

Minor Disciplines - The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly

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@thomasblair@mhalashace@vkromas@ACE_FancyHats Bookmark this thread and come back to it when you're ready to iterate on Minor Disciplines!

 

Minor Disciplines - The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly

This post is going to go through all Minor Disciplines available from the Minor Vendor in the Temple in 5.100 patch. I'm going to classify each and every minor into one of 4 categories: Good, Meh, Bad and Ugly

  • Good - This Minor has use in almost every situation on at least 2 classes and synergies well with different builds
  • Meh - This Minor has a good effect, but for whatever reason, you wouldn't use this
  • Bad - This Minor has a very situational effect and doesn't synergize well with any build or class
  • Ugly - This Minor has no idea what it's doing and doesn't need to be it's own Minor

Each Minor will be classified based on my own judgement, and you're free to disagree with it. I might also add some of my own suggestions so that a particular minor might see more use if my suggestion were followed.

Now that I've explained the rules, let's get started!

Alchemy Techniques, Blacksmithing Techniques, Jewelcrafting Techniques, Leatherworking Techniques, Necromancy Techniques, Runemaking Techniques, Stonemasonry Techniques, Woodworking Techniques - Good

Gives a Passive that increases your Assembly and Experimentation Caps. You'll want this at the high-end to craft really good gear. Stonemasonry Techniques is the only bad one, since Stonemasonry doesn't need stats currently. It'd also be nice if Woodworking Techniques granted the use of Weapon Weights in their weapons.

Armor of Faith - Meh

Gives you an active power that increases Personal Damage Modifier by 7% for 15s every 23s. If you're build already makes use of all your passive slots, but not your power slots, then this could be a Minor to take. Though 7% is not a lot, and you're probably better off using Sturdy or a power from a defensive Major, like Rune Caster. It would see more use if it were more potent, like it was when it was first introduced.

Attention to Detail - Bad

Gives a Passive that increases your Additional Risk Points Value by 1. The description of the Minor says it increases the Percent each Experimentation Point is worth, and the description of Addition Risk Point Value says it does that, but there's no indicator it actually does anything. The messaging is really bad with this Minor Use it alongside Helper Monkey and Risk Management, but once you get to high-end crafting drop it for Leather Scroll Case or a Techniques Minor.

Blood Pact - Ugly

Gives you an active power that changes your resource to Health for 15s every 45s. There is no situation, ever where this would be desirable. You're just asking to get yourself killed. Just remove this from this from the game. No one will ever run this in any situation

Burning Hatred - Bad

Gives you a Passive that spawns Health Orbs when you deal damage. It's a weaker version of Blade Master's Blood Price. Burning Hatred heals you for 1.8%-2.2% of your Maximum Health. Most players will nominally be around 10,000 HP, that's only 180-220 HP. A regular lmb does twice that.  Blood Price, on the other hand, heals you for 63-77+28% Support Power AND gives you 100 Attack Power. Blood Price heals for roughly the same, but gives you more AP. Why would you take Burning Hatred over Blood Price, given the chance? Burning Hatred needs to be healing for about 5% of max HP, nominally, before it'd be considered.

Careless Whisper - Good

Gives you a passive that, after 5 lmbs within 12s, Critical Strike and Critical Damage are buffed by 10% for 6s. Good on lmb-heavy builds to increase their damage, plus there's a visible indicator that tells you when the buff is active.

Dig In! - Bad

Gives you a Passive that increase your Anti-Critical Strike by 25% for 15s when under 25% Health. When you're low health, critical hits aren't what you should be worried about. Considering there are stats that increase raw damage when you're below 35% Health, Dig In! won't prolong your death. Field Surgeon's Rescue is what'll help you. If Dig In! made you immune to crits, or increased Final Mitigations at low health, it'd be a much more viable option.

Elven Eyes - Good

Gives you +20m Far-sight. Has no Passive or active Power, and Far-sight has general uses, so it's good to take when you've filled out both your Passive Slots and Power Bar(s), and have an empty Minor slot.

Eminently Punchable - Meh

Gives you a passive which restores resources when hit. At high levels, you don't need to work about your resource management all that often, and you get more resource from support classes. It might be good as a first minor when you're low level and resource management is something you should worry about, but that goes away as you gain levels.

Explosive Thorns, Prickly Skin, Protective Thorns, Thornshield - Ugly

These 4 Minors all revolve around Thorns, but Thorns damage is laughably weak. It also is functionally the same Retribution, which I'd argue is stronger because Retribution is determined based on your enemy's damage, while Thorns is dependent on some other stat that's not obvious. There's also no way to increase your Thorns, unless you're an Earthkeeper Druid. To make Thorns work, you have to go all into Thorns, but why would you take 3 Minors just to make 1 effect somewhat work? It's lunacy. These 4 Minors are better off as 1 Thorns major, but that still doesn't solve the issue that Thorns damage is weak and can be ignored by other players. Taking these Minors off Thorns and onto Retribution would also make them be more interesting choices.

Finish Him! - Bad

Gives a Passive that increases Execute Power damage. There's only 2 powers in the game that Finish Him! might work on: Templar's Execute and Ranger's Multipurpose Shot with Slashing Arrows/Quiver. The problem is: Execute only works on low Health Players, and the damage increase is not noticeable enough to tell if it even does anything. It also doesn't help that Slashing Arrows/Quivers give a chance to deal Execute damage. Your target will likely be dead before you can determine if you did Execute damage  or if RNGesus said you rolled high on your damage. The messaging on this Minor is just really poor.

Found Resources - Meh

Gives a Passive that returns 2 Pips if you enter stealth with no Pips. In some ways, it's a weaker version of Agent Provocateur's Preparation Passive. With the current way Zoning works, you always enter a Zone with no Pips. Found Resources makes it so, if you ever engage into a fight with no pips, you can get 2 just by stealthing. Of course you could just wack a mob to get full pips, or if you're running Agent Provocateur, Preparation can give you full pips if you stay in stealth long enough. One of the few Stealth disciplines and something to take if you have full Passives in your other tray(s)

Furious - Meh

Gives a Passive to Champions that increases their Damage Bonus by 10% at Full Rage. Only usable on Champions and is overshadowed by stronger Passives from Majors

Glass Cannon - Good

Gives a Passive that increases your Damage Bonus by 10% and decreases your Personal Damage Modifier by 10%. If you're a Ranged DPS and have a pocket healer, the increased damage is not something the worry about. There are ways to counteract the increased damage that make this Passive a good choice.

Helper Monkey - Good

Gives a Passive that reduces the Assembly and Experimentation difficulty by 10. This helps to make it more likely to get good rolls during Experimentation

Last Resort - Bad

Gives a Passive that increases your Critical Strike by 25% when you're below 25% health. When you're below 25% health, you're on death's door. Getting more Critical Strike won't get you out of that situation. Might be good in close 1v1s, but those will be few and far between. Plus, it's not hard to hit the Critical Strike Cap, so this Minor will literally do nothing for you in that case. If it was Critical Damage, then you'd maybe see it, but you're still on death's door and you're likely not in a 1v1 where'd getting a Critical boost would turn the tide.

Leather Scroll Case - Good

Grants the Scroll Case slot. You'll need this to craft Runic Weapons and Horse Shoes

Matching Leather, Matching Mail, Matching Plate - Meh

Gives a Passive that increases your Support Power by 100 when you're wearing a full set of either Leather, Mail, or Plate. These are not bad Minors, but you likely have better Passives from your Major disciplines that overshadow these Minors and you can't slot it to get the effect.

Minor Accompaniment - Bad

Gives a Passive that increases Song Damage. Only has use with Troubadour's Consonant Chains and Dirge of Dissonance. This Minor is only bad because Toggle Powers (which Troubadour mostly consists of) are bad with the amount of CC that flys around during fights. You're going to spend most of your time recasting songs rather than engage in the fight. Otherwise, this would be a Meh Minor, as it's usefulness is tied to Troubadour.

Mortal Sin - Meh

Gives a Passive that increases a target's chance to be critically hit by 2% per stack, can only be used by Confessors and Templars. Because hitting Critical Strike Cap is not hard to do through other means and Minors, there's other Minors that you might want to take instead. Could be useful early game, where you can't get high crit chance, but late game it falls out of favor.

Overwhelming Odds - Meh

Gives a Passive that increases Resist All by 7% when 3 or more enemies are within 10m. Has general uses, but because most classes can reach their Mitigations Caps, this minor isn't all that. It's good early game, when armor isn't good enough to reach caps, but once that happens, Overwhelming Odds becomes less wanted. If it increased Final Mitigations, rather than Resist All, it would see more use late game.

Project Management - Bad

Gives a Passive that reduces the cost of a Small Re-roll by 25%. It's completely overshadowed by Helper Monkey, Risk Management, and a Techniques Minor. Only ever use this if you don't need Helper Monkey and/or Risk Management anymore

Pound of Flesh - Good

Gives a Passive that increases your Damage Bonus by 15% when your target's Health is above 90%. Good for opening bursts to quickly reduce your target's health. If your target is using Sturdy, it quickly gets them below the Sturdy threshold. Somewhat situational since it only has an effect at the beginning of fights, but not a bad pick

Resolution - Good

Gives a Passive that increase Damage Bonus when 3 or more enemies are within 15m. Will activate in most scenarios to increase your damage. Especially good with melee characters.

Risk Management - Good

Gives a Passive that increases your Additional Risk Difficulty Reduction by 10. This makes it so higher additional risks are more likely to result in good rolls on the item.

Shadow's Caress - Meh

Gives a Passive that increases Health Regen by 35 while in Stealth. Another rare Stealth Minor. Considerably weaker than Agent Provocateur's Lay Low. Only run this if you don't have a healer and aren't running Agent Provocateur.

Shield Whiz - Meh

Causes Shield Fighter's Throw Illusion Shield to bounce off an additional target and gives a Passive that applies a Snare to Throw Illusion Shield. Only had use on one Power in the Game, but it turns it into a ranged Snare, which isn't bad. Plus it combos with Illusionist. Only Meh because it's only useful to one Power on one Major Discipline

Sparring - Meh

Gives a Passive that increase Basic Attack Damage by 10%. Good early game, but with talents and gear, you can reach the Basic Attack Damage Cap, which makes this Minor useless late game.

Spirit Whip - Meh

Gives a Passive that bounces your Basic Attack to 2 additional targets with a 50% and a 25% damage fall off. In most situations, your enemies aren't going to be grouped up enough for the attack to bounce, and damage it does won't be felt that much. It'd be much better if there wasn't a fall off, or if it was less severe.

Sturdy - Good

Gives a Passive that increases Personal Damage Modifier by 33% while above 80% Health. Has universal value. You'd want this on practically every build. The sustain this gives you is great, and you should want to have this in your build.

Sustaining Note - Good

Gives a Passive that increases Song Duration by 6s. If you're using Bard or Troubadour, you should use this, especially to make twisting easier to accomplish.

The Reaper - Good

Gives a +0.5 Harvest Power Pip Bonus, giving you a full pip every swing. The only Harvesting Minor, and like Elven Eyes, it only gives stats, no passives. Take it if you're a harvester and your build doesn't need all your Minors or a Profession Harvesting Discipline

Song Twisting - Bad

Gives a Passive that allows you to twist songs to make a stronger one. Only bad because you'll more than likely be interrupted while trying to twist, causing you to very rarely get it off. If Toggle Powers weren't easily interrupted, this one would be Good for Bard or Troubadour builds

Uniform Leather, Uniform Mail, Uniform Plate - Meh

Gives a Passive that increases your Attack Power by 100 when you're wearing a full set of either Leather, Mail, or Plate. These are not bad Minors, but you likely have better Passives from your Major disciplines that overshadow these Minors and you can't slot it to get the effect.

Weapon Finesse - Bad

Gives a Passive that increases your Power Efficiency by 20%. A stronger version of the Mental Fortitude Passive you get by default. Power Efficiency caps at 25%, and it's likely you'll get close to the cap through talents and skills. Only in early game where you're using non-advanced weapons and have low Efficiency would this maybe be worth, but Mental Fortitude is good enough.

 


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Posted (edited)

My thoughts on some of your grading:

Careless Whisper - Good -> Meh. Once you're in a blue vessel and blue gear+weapons, you will likely be capped out on crit chance/damage before this discipline, so it's useless once you reach a certain progression in the game.
Pound of Flesh - Good -> Bad. Dead for the majority of a target's health bar, it's a noob trap.
Resolution - Good -> Bad. It's very easy to cap out on damage bonus in similar situation above with Careless whisper. 
Overwhelming Odds - Meh -> Good - Lots of classes cannot cap out on resistances, this is very useful for sieges and provides more effective HP than sturdy given a 100-0 hp path, even more so with period healing.
Shadow's Caress Meh -> Ugly. A wasted slot. 
Sustaining Note - Good -> Ugly. With the current state of bard/troub songs (any CC interrupts them and you have to re-cast them) they are not worth running, and therefore this minor is not worth running. 
Uniform Leather, Uniform Mail, Uniform Plate - Meh -> Good. Some classes like Ranger, Assassin cannot cap out on AP, so these can be useful. 
Weapon Finesse - Bad -> Meh/Good. Very useful as a DPS discipline (10% basic attack damage bonus, same as Sparring, but lower costs or cooldowns) on classes that do not get Power Efficiency on the tree.

But the situation is dire, there are really hardly any usable minors in 5.100, with the removal of HOG/FS/DP/EM.


In summary: There are too many flat useless minor disciplines, and they need a re-work.

 

Edited by Phr00t

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46 minutes ago, Phr00t said:

Sustaining Note - Good -> Ugly. With the current state of bard/troub songs (any CC interrupts them and you have to re-cast them) they are not worth running, and therefore this minor is not worth running.

 
Weapon Finesse - Bad -> Meh/Good. Very useful as a DPS discipline (10% basic attack damage bonus, same as Sparring, but lower costs or cooldowns) on classes that do not get Power Efficiency on the tree.

I only say Sustaining Note is Good because it’s effectiveness isn’t directly ties to your Songs not being interrupted like Song Twisting. It just makes your Songs last longer, which is useful for Bard and Trobadour Builds, even though the builds themselves are bad

I didn’t know Power Efficiency affected Basic Attack damage that much. It would make it easier Meh, in that case.


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Posted (edited)

But rethink this from the perspective that you want testers to quit and suddenly these minors and removed minors start to make sense.  It falls right in line with the continued lack of game stability and playability, continued breaking of abilities and leaving broke/bad abilities broke/bad. The continued application of new “placeholders” that are are a more tedious experience than previous placeholders and the developers own words.

 

tldr: the list is great, I’d agree kinda like Frute with a few changes, problem is: it’s poor design by design.

Edited by Ble

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33 minutes ago, Ble said:

But rethink this from the perspective that you want testers to quit and suddenly these minors and removed minors start to make sense.  It falls right in line with the continued lack of game stability and playability, continued breaking of abilities and leaving broke/bad abilities broke/bad. The continued application of new “placeholders” that are are a more tedious experience than previous placeholders and the developers own words.

I disagree with your premise that the devs want all their players to leave. I think they cant help it. Their game engine simply wont support large/mid scale pvp combat. This would not be so bad if they planned and included PvE into their mmo from the start, but let be honest, PvE was never a focus until recently. Once they figured out their engine was garbage and could not support the core design of the game they have had to change direction and go the PvE route that can be handled much better by the engine. This has the effect of causing major problems with player base. PvP players are not happy with rare PvP and PvE players are not happy with half implemented systems. 

I assert that having a 24/7 testing game world is not productive and agree with blairs recent comments about it. Amazon recently pulled down their alpha mmo new world to make massive core changes. Its just not feasible to stay online without large scale player unrest during some periods of development.

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Posted (edited)

Song Twisting - Is Now Usless

Gives a Passive that allows you to twist songs to make a stronger one. 

1) requires 4 songs to be twisted, all 4 songs can not be placed on survival tray(Heal song, both useless and combat tray only)

2) fitting 4 abilities from one major on your bar is sacrificing a lot and required 10 slots to do effectively, Max slots is now 9 for only 2 races.

3) a few patches ago you could twist all 4 songs with relative ease, the animations where smooth and you could hear the sound cues to press the next pattern to boost the next song... now, since the movement patch, the songs do not always trigger reliably and most recently there is no sound....

4.1) a few patches ago you could twist a song into a buffed state and then as long as you let it play or re played it before the timer was up the buff'd song would continue no matter which action bar you where on. now the song just counts down to 0 and then resets as the unbuffed songs....

4.2) If you are playing an enhanced song and switch to survival tray and try to renew it. it will cast the song, and not refresh the buff, and then end the song when the timer completes... its as if you never spent that time to refresh it..

--------------------------------------------

On 7/6/2019 at 9:37 PM, Phr00t said:

Sustaining Note - Good -> Ugly. With the current state of bard/troub songs (any CC interrupts them and you have to re-cast them) they are not worth running, and therefore this minor is not worth running. 

However, If you do play bard, this is 100000000000000000% must have minor, it is the best minor you can possibly pick.

-------------------------------------------

an easy response to fix a few of these complaints would be to change the bard rune heal song to a passive slot.  and change twisting minor to req 3 songs.

or maybe just drop heal song, remove twisting minor and make it a passive on the bard rune.....

the rest are bugs that have been introduced with the movement engine changes. and i have already sent the devs a bunch of data on this months ago... however if you love bard like i do, then please go test what i am saying and also submit the bugs.

Edited by ferrat

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Bard is bad. It'll get fixed when it gets gooder. No reason to waste time on something when they are gonna just change it all eventually. 

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bard is not bad. bard is viable in the right place, and can even be game changing if used at the right stage of the game.

but right now its worse then it ever was

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1 hour ago, ferrat said:

bard is not bad. bard is viable in the right place, and can even be game changing if used at the right stage of the game.

but right now its worse then it ever was

Bard is good for harvesters.  Thats it.

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I get why you feel that way...

Mounts are faster then bard unless you twist....

135% OOC speed = Pack pig = 1000g 

130% OOC Speed = Bard = 1 Major slot and one skill slot
140% OOC Speed = Twisting + Bard = one minor, one major, one passive, 4 skill slots (and with recent changes to the engine it can only be twisted on combat bar and falls off out of combat)
Movement engine needed to be fixed, so they fixed it, but it broke bard mechanics.... nothing was done to fix it, even after data was presented.

People stop playing and testing because the state of the game is poorly made socks.. they overhaul loot drops and availability of runes.. to get players back. and destroy the viability of 4 skill majors... including bard and others... 

They keep making changes to the game that break the major. and don't seem to even consider it...

and that is likely due to people like yourself who are all over the forums parroting group think ideals.

Its a self perpetuating cycle... It sucks because its broken, so lets just keep telling the whole community it is worthless and discourage people from trying it. then the devs won't care if they break it more and make it more worthless, because the community doesn't care and you get to feel like you are right.

im just gonna be the guy that keeps saying hey, this has potential. and give ideas on how to make it more viable. you can thank me later

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4 hours ago, Zatch said:

Bard is bad. It'll get fixed when it gets gooder. No reason to waste time on something when they are gonna just change it all eventually. 

do you have some post where they talk about overhauling it? i have been MIA for a few months

 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, ferrat said:

do you have some post where they talk about overhauling it? i have been MIA for a few months

 

Almost every disc needs an overhaul. Almost all of them are the exact same as when they were implemented two years ago. A large balence pass/addition will do wonders for the state of the combat. 

It seems like their focus over the last six months was getting the crafting and disc aqusition systemd into the game. Hopefully a major combat pass will come with the dregs or soon after.

Edited by Zatch

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i like where your head is at, i would just much prefer to hear them verbally commit to a time frame for an overhaul.

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, ferrat said:

i like where your head is at, i would just much prefer to hear them verbally commit to a time frame for an overhaul.

They gain nothing by doing that.  And it doesn't help them doing it any better.  It might make them possibly do it faster and also possibly release a half-arsed overhaul to appease some commitment.   Things like this are a pre-alpha downfall.  You got to weather this for now.  This is something for late alpha, before beta is going to launch. ( balancing, overhauling and fine-tuning and polishing on a large scale).

Right now, in pre-alpha, their concern is to build the proper foundation for the game.  They are trying to do this at the same time as making the game playable for us instead of some boring pre-alpha devworld sandbox.  I've been in those too.  I spawn a boss, I fight it some, I insta kill it once I'm bored and take the loot.   I teleport to the dev island that has no texture.  I write something like "Hi, Bob" out in chairs on the wall, I'll kill myself, detatch the anchor for my corpse and use it as the comma.  Test done, log off and go play something "real".  Bob, obviously, is lead dev.

 

Their commitment, which at times I've been very vocal about, is to provide us with a stable, playable environment so that we can test+play.  Not perfect, but playable.  They also give us extra attention, in the area of balance. We all fight over that attention, because its rightly limited, for things such as this.  So while this is definitely a valid conversation, I would say lets not ask for commitments in this area.  Just present your case, ask for your changes, do as much work as you can do yourself, and see if it catches their eye.

If beta is about to drop. and we aren't polished up in this area, I'll be on the bullhorn (made from killing ZombieGahndi) letting them know, as will others.

Edited by Ble

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8 hours ago, Ble said:

If beta is about to drop. and we aren't polished up in this area, I'll be on the bullhorn (made from killing ZombieGahndi) letting them know, as will others.

And you know as well as I do, that if you wait till beta releases, its too late. 

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It feels like to me that minor disciplines are just overshadowed period by more valuable Majors that give better passives.  What should probably happen is that Minors give you a small base line effect while equipped with an option to slot them as a passive for a bigger effect.  Maybe Furious as an example would give you 10% while slotted, but as a passive it becomes 20%?  This and/or a minor only passive slot could potentially be an idea.  Many of them do have value, but not enough to slot compared to others.

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On 8/8/2019 at 5:44 AM, Ble said:

They gain nothing by doing that. 

i work in product, they have a road map, they just arn't sharing it. if they don't... gods help us

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Nice work here!

I would like to correct.
Careless Whisper - Meh on the late game with good skill tree and gear. Coz 50% crit chance and 200% crit dmg cap

Armor of Faith. Bad. Not meh. Coz it is active but eat minor slot and active slot and need to be recasted all the time. Also cost resources. If Overhelming odds is Meh, this should be 1 lvl down.

Explosive Thorns, Prickly Skin, Protective Thorns, Thornshield - Bad. Not because no1 use it but because thorns is true damage and triggered on every single dmg source (2k hit, every single DoT tick). It is hard to balance it and this power splitted between way to much disciplines to be viable.

Sparring - Good. Coz this is only one free way to increase your damage by 10% easily without any cons. Since necklaces are nerfed, this can be the best way to increase close to cap basic attack dmg.

Weapon Finesse - Meh. Not every class/subclass have access to increase power efficiency through skill tree. Not everyone will focus on this stat through main account tree. This is also mandatory to the pip users since it make (well, it works in 5.9) some skills free to use.


About mitigations: https://community.crowfall.com/topic/25821-armor-pen-how-is-it-calculated/ decent post with devs answers. I mean building mitigation overcap is a nice thing versus veteran players.
(Overwhelming Odds, Armor of Faith etc)
And Sturdy are still stupidity OP


crowfall pvp makkonMyrmidon statement: Out of Fury

Discord makkon#8550

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