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Wipe coming with new trial

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1 hour ago, LastRights said:

Do you think combat basics is enough for that? That's what you get in that time at best, if you focus on combat.

For most the time I was playing 5.8 I didn't have training in the combat passives and I had no issues killing people, even on the less effective classes.

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3 hours ago, LastRights said:

Every game has a catch-up mechanism for new players.

this is not accurate.  for the longest time Eve online did NOT have a catch up mechanic and it was highly successful and it has passive training.  yes NOW they implemented the skill injectors which is a catch up mechanic but that game succeeded LONG before they did that......  Imagine that.  A game with a passive skilling tree outlasting so many of these other MMO's.... :)  

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3 hours ago, Navystylz said:

Also you're arguing that these newer players are going to have people just dishing out tomes to them. Because if they feel so useless without having these catch up tomes, and can't produce much of anything worthwhile, what currency will they have to trade with

what ever the in game currency is at the time... gold maybe?? Eve online has a similar mechanic called skill injectors.  one player with skill points to spare ( and there are plenty) injects some of those points into a skill extractor and that is how the injector is created.  those are sold via the in game economy which is doing well in eve.  the notion of "skill tomes" or skill injectors, what ever name you attach to it has been show to work..... 

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13 minutes ago, Kianna_RuneMaker said:

this is not accurate.  for the longest time Eve online did NOT have a catch up mechanic and it was highly successful and it has passive training.  yes NOW they implemented the skill injectors which is a catch up mechanic but that game succeeded LONG before they did that......  Imagine that.  A game with a passive skilling tree outlasting so many of these other MMO's.... :)  

I hope you do realise, that eve online is a completelly different game, catering to a widely different audiance to the point where it has no resemblance or even similarity to what crowfall is supposed to be. Your only point of comparison is that it is an MMO, which literally only means that a large number of people play the game, while all connected through the internet. The question is not whether other, widely different games have successfully used a passive skill tree, but whether it is fit for purpose as implemented in crowfall at this current point in time. Your argument, put in a methaphor would go something like this: Apples should have an outer skin exactly like oranges, because it works for oranges. Also I would encourage you to read and try to understand the substance of the whole of my comment, as taking a short sentence out of context and trying to disprove it by an irrelevant example is not exactly a go-to method if you want to have a meaningful discussion.

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20 minutes ago, Kianna_RuneMaker said:

what ever the in game currency is at the time... gold maybe?? Eve online has a similar mechanic called skill injectors.  one player with skill points to spare ( and there are plenty) injects some of those points into a skill extractor and that is how the injector is created.  those are sold via the in game economy which is doing well in eve.  the notion of "skill tomes" or skill injectors, what ever name you attach to it has been show to work..... 

He is correct in that for the first year or so you wont see them sold due to how they need to be generated. Folks with alts will be using one account to pump another at first. If they were simply bought off a cash shop then it would be different. 

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38 minutes ago, Kianna_RuneMaker said:

this is not accurate.  for the longest time Eve online did NOT have a catch up mechanic and it was highly successful and it has passive training.  yes NOW they implemented the skill injectors which is a catch up mechanic but that game succeeded LONG before they did that......  Imagine that.  A game with a passive skilling tree outlasting so many of these other MMO's.... :)  

This may be accurate but just cause Eve online made this error does not justify crowfall making the same error. Just saying :)

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1 hour ago, mystafyi said:

He is correct in that for the first year or so you wont see them sold due to how they need to be generated. Folks with alts will be using one account to pump another at first. If they were simply bought off a cash shop then it would be different. 

Not really, how it was originally described was the tomes would only apply to specific trees. So a Weapon Basics Skill Tome could only be used on in the Weapon Basics Skill Tree. ACE have said these won't be offered I launch, so I suspect we'd see them 3-6 months afterwards. If anything vets with alts would just use them to pump trees they weren't training. And it would only be useful for the initial trees because you need to have access to the tree to be able to bank time for a tome. You'd need a lot of alts to pump one account efficiently, and at that point, only crazies would use 19 alts to pump 1 account.

4 hours ago, Crushedvelvet said:

Debate away how much an advantage this is vs a fresh player without the same skills as myself in these trees.

My current Skill Trees for Combat and Armor related stat growth (feel free to add it all up, i'm lazy)

~snip~

Having  300 extra HP isn't going to be the difference between life and death

You get ~18% resistances through the trees, which is significant.

CC Control stats scale poorly, you're probably only saving off 1s, at best

Anti Crit Strike is a big deal, but probably not the difference between life and death

Attack Power is divided by 10, so 150 attack power is only 15 extra damage. RNGesus has a better chance of killing you than 15 more damage

To conclude, nothing a newb with decent gear and understanding of mechanics can't overcome


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You Can't Be A Genius, If You Aren't The Slightest Bit Insane.

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As an aside, if the economy works as it should after launch, newbs can farm money/currency and buy mats and gear while they wait for their skills to catch up. If that can be properly communicated, I don't think it'll be that big an issue.

(Conversely, ACE could find a way for white mats to be needed by vets, which is easy for everyone and their mother to farm, so they could do that while waiting for training)


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You Can't Be A Genius, If You Aren't The Slightest Bit Insane.

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2 minutes ago, Crushedvelvet said:

@coolster50

it’s 1k hp, not 300. (was in the edited out portion of your half quote of my post)

cheers

Huh, I can't count. 1k HP is certainly significant


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You Can't Be A Genius, If You Aren't The Slightest Bit Insane.

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5 minutes ago, coolster50 said:

ACE have said these won't be offered I launch, so I suspect we'd see them 3-6 months afterwards. If anything vets with alts would just use them to pump trees they weren't training. 

I Agree. At first they would not help new players at all and could in fact hurt new players that did not have alt accounts.

5 minutes ago, coolster50 said:

As an aside, if the economy works as it should after launch

IF. So far there is less economy then last year, not sure how that could even happen.

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We have had 3x training for a long long while. People have been capped in primary lines and secondary skills now for a bit. Some are filling out 3rd/4th "specialties" almost.

They need to test this poorly made socks. Not just endgame, but the start. Is it too fast. Is it too slow. What beats are hitting at the right times.  First day training, first 3 days, first week, 2 weeks, the all important first month with vip paid or not. 

Is it fun enough to keep up training at 1x, should they think about 3 x like before all of these changes. Or 4/5x They have not tested any of that for a long while now. With massive gameplay changes in between. 

If they do what they said and have a soft launch with "no more wipes" and go with a 1x speed launch it is going to open a lot of eyes in a very very bad way.  I have tested at 1x speed. For over a year. It needs to be weighed and measured again. 

It was a long ass time ago, but it was weeks of unfun waiting, while in the moment of playing, back when they had a LOT more training to do. 

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In the long run, none of this is going to matter because for live, we are all starting at zero. The only advantage anyone playing now will have, is knowledge and established help. That's it. All of your arguments are really just farts on the wind.

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10 hours ago, Xarrayne said:

In This Thread: people forgetting to mention Skill Tomes (Coming Eventually™)... Of course that doesn't help the situation as it is, and it's impossible to tell if they'll actually solve these problems, but ACE is perfectly aware that these problems do exist.

They are aware and passive training has been an issue/concern/problem since basically the first version. One of the major systems that has been re-done multiple times as well. Best we've heard from ACE is it is a "future dev problem" and a rough draft version of time banking. Until they figure it out, it would be relatively easy (assumed) to just max everyone and let people test actual active game play without any unrealistic training in place. Come Beta or a more finalized version, then start over passive training testing be it 1x, 3x, or 10x to see how it works for new/old dynamics.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Kianna_RuneMaker said:

this is not accurate.  for the longest time Eve online did NOT have a catch up mechanic and it was highly successful and it has passive training.  yes NOW they implemented the skill injectors which is a catch up mechanic but that game succeeded LONG before they did that......  Imagine that.  A game with a passive skilling tree outlasting so many of these other MMO's.... :)  

EVE is not Crowfall. Even if their passive training systems were identical, you can't cherry pick them out and say "it worked here so it will work there." There are tons of variables involved and for the most part EVE and CF are entirely different. Along with their passive systems themselves are not a like beyond they are passive.

Your bias might be showing a bit by what you view as successful or not. Larger games don't have passive training, should CF ditch the feature if it's just a number or success factor? Funny enough some of the few big name MMOs that have actually closed were those ACE's devs use as credibility...

The fact that EVE added in catch up, F2P, and other systems years in doesn't mean those things couldn't help out a new game just as much or that a new game should wait and see what happens if even the devs have stated it will be an issue down the road. Why wait instead of fixing/avoiding the problem all together?

6 hours ago, Kianna_RuneMaker said:

what ever the in game currency is at the time... gold maybe?? Eve online has a similar mechanic called skill injectors.  one player with skill points to spare ( and there are plenty) injects some of those points into a skill extractor and that is how the injector is created.  those are sold via the in game economy which is doing well in eve.  the notion of "skill tomes" or skill injectors, what ever name you attach to it has been show to work..... 

CF will not have a market like EVE by design. CF also has campaigns with win/lose conditions and rewards. In a game like EVE or Albion Online where things go back and forth forever, using an open market isn't a huge deal. In CF it might be wiser to stay in-house as much as possible to avoid potentially helping the enemy, especially with how much work goes into harvesting, crafting, and the passive time required to do it well. Skill injectors might work in EVE and Tomes might do well in CF but we need to see it in action sooner then later to know. I'd rather they fix a small scrape now then try to stick a bandaid on a huge gash down the road.

Edited by APE

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3 hours ago, TowB said:

#MAXPASSIVESKILLSFORALL

Makes the most sense to me for testing, players, and devs.

I don't see the benefit of having an unrealistic form of training at this stage.

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, galvia said:

I think this type of stuff is better off in a feedback thread but here we go.

Passive training is only a big deal in crafting and gathering, combat passive training is significantly less impactful than others have stated in this thread. I was a top 10 PVPer on the Balance leaderboard for four~ months while I worked on my Blacksmithing and Ore trees without a single point in combat - the amount of power you gain from those trees is not zero, but your gear and the resources you have access to are a far larger contributor to why you get run over by me 1v1.

As someone that would prefer to focus on combat and more so PVP, I don't understand why training is this way.

If combat training is almost entirely insignificant why does it exist?

Anyone can fight and the stats gained from training, while helpful, don't make Combat any more of a role or open up new ways to play.

Combat training should be replaced/enhanced to provide tools that actually complement someone that wants to be a fighter.

Ex:

POI Capture: Increased capture speed, add extra bonus points to capture

Siege: Wall destruction/repair, guard enhancement, siege weapon efficiency/building, do more damage/healing to trees.

Travel: Increased speed in/out combat, along roads, or near POI/strongholds. 

Death: Decreased respawn limits/costs, increased crow speed.

PVE: Increased/decreased dmg vs mobs of whatever type, increased loot drop chance/quality, less gear decay vs mobs.

Tracking: Tracking...

These types of things would open up more ways to play or enhance combat game play, not just numbers on a paper doll. Combat training should provide enough power advantage to make a difference (who cares about player skill amiright?) or be more then just basic stats.

I know just throwing more stats is the easy way to go about it, but it is very unexciting and compared to harvesting/crafting, doesn't do nearly as much. 

Edited by APE

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