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Bellson

3 Faction Systems Don't Work

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22 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

In order to defend the deadzone condition balance would have to simultaneously fight the other two factions and never do so from a defended position due to the inability to own structures, and never gets to choose the terms of engagement. That means no home field advantage, longer world travel times on average, and absolutely zero safety in the open world.

I don't think that's easier. Its just an alternate set of challenges.

Again the problem with the original implementation was that balance had this win condition alongside owning structures, and that the "dead zone" was too wide. That dead zone needs to be extremely narrow to ensure balance really has to bust ass flipping objectives to keep it stable.

indeed the range of the deadzone is problematic, if you make it too wide then balance will have much easier winning conditions but as easily you can make it too narrow and make balance a bad choice. i just think its too difficult to set the right range for every campaign and it would be much easier to simply not let balance compete directly against order and chaos.

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15 hours ago, Jah said:

Lol at 2-3 guilds with < 5 members. You do realize Chaos already outnumbers Balance, right? Add in the guilds that have stopped showing up and you'd outnumber Balance by at least 2 to 1.

8-B882715-F8-E5-4-BE7-8-CFE-7605749-BDFE

Where are you getting your numbers? Scoreboard? Not accurate whatsoever, especially since we know a lot of you have alt accounts on chaos. It’s all about who shows up to fight at the siege engagements. Those numbers from what I have seen this most recent campaign are slightly in balances favor. Not enough for anyone to legitimately cry about.

The main difference between factions. Balance shows up cause they want to win. Chaos shows up for a good fight. Two different primary goals/ideologies. Balance is more unified, chaos is more tribal. It’s easy to see when you don’t look at it through a self serving bias. 

The real facts are that ACE has done far more to drive participation down then any players or alliance. Which is to be expected in a “pre alpha” state. 

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3 minutes ago, oneply said:

8-B882715-F8-E5-4-BE7-8-CFE-7605749-BDFE

 

The real facts are that ACE has done far more to drive participation down then any players or alliance.

Sounds anecdotal to me.  Got any empirical data to back that claim?


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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29 minutes ago, oneply said:

Where are you getting your numbers? Scoreboard? Not accurate whatsoever, especially since we know a lot of you have alt accounts on chaos. It’s all about who shows up to fight at the siege engagements. Those numbers from what I have seen this most recent campaign are slightly in balances favor. Not enough for anyone to legitimately cry about.

The main difference between factions. Balance shows up cause they want to win. Chaos shows up for a good fight. Two different primary goals/ideologies. Balance is more unified, chaos is more tribal. It’s easy to see when you don’t look at it through a self serving bias.

Yes, the numbers come from the scoreboard. Chaos was the largest faction in the Trial of Arkon. That is accurate.

I made no claim about which faction is more motivated to win, who is more unified, or who actually shows up at siege time. That would be easy to see if you weren't making strawman arguments to fabricate gotchas.

 


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1 hour ago, mandalore said:

Sounds anecdotal to me.  Got any empirical data to back that claim?

Absolutely anecdotal. Based on what guildies and comrades in other guild say when they are in chat. 

For instance a guildie stopped in the other day after a couple months. Topics that came up. “This dizzy animation makes me want to puke” “Why do I have to level in GR?” “Why I is everyone in the same faction in GR? That’s dumb” “How hard is it to get geared up?” “ Why are resources so high in GR?” “How has PvP been?” “Are thralls/refineries in yet?” “What’s the news on dregs/frostweaver?”

 

Edited by oneply
Hasn’t been on since

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4 minutes ago, Jah said:

Yes, the numbers come from the scoreboard. Chaos was the largest faction in the Trial of Arkon. That is accurate.

I made no claim about which faction is more motivated to win, who is more unified, or who actually shows up at siege time. That would be easy to see if you weren't making strawman arguments to fabricate gotchas.

 

Scoreboard is misleading for accurate number counting and you know it. Not going to get in an argument with a disingenuous person. 

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10 minutes ago, oneply said:

Scoreboard is misleading for accurate number counting and you know it. Not going to get in an argument with a disingenuous person. 

 

27 minutes ago, Jah said:

Yes, the numbers come from the scoreboard. Chaos was the largest faction in the Trial of Arkon. That is accurate.

I made no claim about which faction is more motivated to win, who is more unified, or who actually shows up at siege time. That would be easy to see if you weren't making strawman arguments to fabricate gotchas.

 

To be fair, I qualified it with "who know what they are doing". There are only 2-3 guilds I'd trust to go even numbers against the big 3 balance guilds and they all have 5 or less players. 

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41 minutes ago, oneply said:

Absolutely anecdotal. Based on what guildies and comrades in other guild say when they are in chat. 

For instance a guildie stopped in the other day after a couple months. Topics that came up. “This dizzy animation makes me want to puke” “Why do I have to level in GR?” “Why I is everyone in the same faction in GR? That’s dumb” “How hard is it to get geared up?” “ Why are resources so high in GR?” “How has PvP been?” “Are thralls/refineries in yet?” “What’s the news on dregs/frostweaver?”

 

You predicated you’re statement on the basis that it was “real facts” then went face first down the anecdotal rabbit hole.  


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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39 minutes ago, oneply said:

Scoreboard is misleading for accurate number counting and you know it. Not going to get in an argument with a disingenuous person. 

The scoreboard is an accurate measure of the number of accounts registered to each faction. I haven't claimed it represented anything else.


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@Jah @mandalore Why are you guys arguing with someone over numbers and the state of the game when they don't even play?

752ed0969a4d1a996e53c9f1916f746c.png

 

P.S. This conversation isn't even about 3 faction anymore, it's just devolved into the same old "he said she said" argument about who is gudder than who... No facts or productive discussion to be found here, just opinions and underhanded mudslinging.

Edited by Xarrayne

:^)

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21 hours ago, mandalore said:

When it comes down it people are going to do anything to win so I’d get ready for that.  If you can’t win, ensuring your enemy loses more than you is a close second.  This isn’t my first rodeo in a PvP mmo (played Sb for most of it and then years on the emu’s) and when given the opportunity to win most people are gonna leap at it; regardless of honor, morale, ethics.  

People are going to Zerg, exploit, cheat, betray, lie, abuse and or harass whoever they have to to win.  It’s going to be glorious to watch. 

Enh. You'd be right if you said "most people" do that. But every single game there's always a smaller percentage of players that prefer good fights and gameplay over "must win at all costs". Also I feel pretty custard sad for whoever thinks exploiting and cheating is alright to secure a win. I would never do that or be in a guild with ppl who think that's alright. I'd rather lose with a small group of competent and coordinated players and get some really good fights against the megazerg, as long as the game systems and designs give the smaller force a chance to do that and still have fun and secure small wins here and there, even if hopeless in the end. That's the key aspect. Some games are good at providing that, others are absolute poorly made socks and just give all advantages to the zerg. 

I'd be bored to death and beyond if I won a campaign world (or any other game) by megazerging and/or unclebobbing the server to the point I just snooze every siege because there's no competition. That win would be hollow as custard for me. I play games for other reasons. But to each his own. 

 

19 hours ago, mandalore said:

Chaos has multiple guilds that have 20+ members but they got tired of getting stomped on by a previous ally and subsequently quit. 

Multiple 20+ guilds, what are you talking about? Only one that seems to fit that description of former ally is UDL and I was there when HoA and W allied for the first time, UDL had all left the game at that point and there were prolly 10 of them max playing. If you are talking about them getting stomped before the WHoA alliance, I wasn't very active around that time, but from an outside observer POV, it seemed to me that it was just a fairly even 3-way between HoA, W and UDL for a while? 

I mean, I can only speak for my own personal experience here, but CF has been a buggy, laggy, spammy combat mess for a long time now, and a pre-alpha test on top of that. A silly pixel reward in the new Trials ain't enough to bring people back into the game. IF and I mean IF the game actually delivers an actual playable fun experience closer to beta/launch, that's when people will bother to play the game, and many guilds will bother to compete, including countless guilds that haven't even stepped into the tests yet. 


 

 

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2 hours ago, Xarrayne said:

@Jah @mandalore Why are you guys arguing with someone over numbers and the state of the game when they don't even play?

752ed0969a4d1a996e53c9f1916f746c.png

 

P.S. This conversation isn't even about 3 faction anymore, it's just devolved into the same old "he said she said" argument about who is gudder than who... No facts or productive discussion to be found here, just opinions and underhanded mudslinging.

To be fair he was mostly a scout on his jewlecrafter duelist, he didn’t get a combat upgrade til almost the end of the campaign. Which does kinda of prove his point that the scoreboard is misleading.


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3 hours ago, mandalore said:

You predicated you’re statement on the basis that it was “real facts” then went face first down the anecdotal rabbit hole.  

abf635ff2ae728430faf77a03114db76.jpg

 

its ok mandy. We can’t all pick up on the obvious 

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2 minutes ago, Duffy said:

To be fair he was mostly a scout on his jewlecrafter duelist, he didn’t get a combat upgrade til almost the end of the campaign. Which does kinda of prove his point that the scoreboard is misleading.

The scoreboard is 100% misleading in its accuracy of contribution since many irregular combat actions can't be scored correctly but one thing the scoreboard does do with great accuracy is identify what faction a player is on. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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3 minutes ago, oneply said:

abf635ff2ae728430faf77a03114db76.jpg

 

its ok mandy. We can’t all pick up on the obvious 

So you aren't trying to backpedal on your libelous statement and instead trying to make it look it was a bad joke all along?   It looks like you are but I guess that's anecdotal; that seems to happen a lot when you're around. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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2 minutes ago, Duffy said:

To be fair he was mostly a scout on his jewlecrafter duelist, he didn’t get a combat upgrade til almost the end of the campaign. Which does kinda of prove his point that the scoreboard is misleading.

I wouldn't blame you for not pointing out which account is his, but is his score contribution much better on that one? And if it's all one account... I can understand that as a stealther he's not exactly gonna get in the thick of things, but only 22 kill participation over the whole Trial? Even melee squishies should be expected to contribute to fights somewhat, especially so if it's less than 4 groups per side. 2 captures is also insanely low, even if all you wanna do is find PvP.

Yes the scoreboard is far from perfect and doesn't consider all contributions you can make to being part of a successful group, but it does give some useful information; this doesn't look like the stats of a regular participant.


:^)

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To my knowledge Oneply does not have a second account, his crafter account is his combat and gathering account. So what you see score wise is a reflection of a scout/crafter. He has a Ranger now for this campaign so you should see more of him.

I also don’t begrudge attendance issues, they are what they are for people for various reasons. I think he missed a few sieges on top of his usual scouting and doing little combat role. It is what it is, you guys are really focusing too hard on this. I was at almost every siege, go critique my score if you want something in the unimpressive but there most of the time bracket.

Edited by Duffy

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16 minutes ago, Xarrayne said:

I wouldn't blame you for not pointing out which account is his, but is his score contribution much better on that one? And if it's all one account... I can understand that as a stealther he's not exactly gonna get in the thick of things, but only 22 kill participation over the whole Trial? Even melee squishies should be expected to contribute to fights somewhat, especially so if it's less than 4 groups per side. 2 captures is also insanely low, even if all you wanna do is find PvP.

Yes the scoreboard is far from perfect and doesn't consider all contributions you can make to being part of a successful group, but it does give some useful information; this doesn't look like the stats of a regular participant.

Different goals than scoring high on the scoreboard this past campaign. And I avoided a lot of siege battles because of performance issues. Didn’t improve until the later part of the campaign to which I then spent leveling a combat toon/rl fun. By the time I was ready to have fun again campaign was done.

If they had stats for mineral farming tho I bet I’d be high up that scoreboard 

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2 minutes ago, mystafyi said:

So we went from discussing 3 faction issues and devolved into arguing over the subjective level of participation of players for a half finished pre-alpha game? I am curious as to how many kills one needs to be relevant on an unrelated topic?

That's how forum discussion works 😎 and you need at least tree fiddy.


:^)

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