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Yoink

Passive Training and Catch Up (Might not be enough)

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I know passive training is a hot topic ATM. I know people say just wait for the catch up mechanic. I'm wondering if the catch up mechanic will work if it is not easily accessible and/or catches you all the way up. There is lot of talk about being behind in combat passive but the most important gap is in harvesting and crafting. Player skill can not make up for this.

Spoiler

 

How does someone contribute in a meaningful way in harvesting/crafting against this? Its not going to happen at 50% or 75% caught up. Maybe at 90%?

This is even more true of crafting. No one is going to want to use materials on a crafter that is 90% of the guilds best crafter.

Also, Gravedigging might need a look at. Resources are way too abundant.

Spoiler

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This was just a few hours of farming today.

WTS parts

WTB storage


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Posted (edited)

Who are playing the game now like active guilds Dregs is not even patched yet the guild campaign?

I`m on the test server trying to get the Mug and test stuff, and just talked to Phylor earlier this morning.

Edited by mythx

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Crowfall Game Client: https://www.crowfall.com/en/client/

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On 8/2/2019 at 7:55 PM, Yoink said:

I know passive training is a hot topic ATM. I know people say just wait for the catch up mechanic. I'm wondering if the catch up mechanic will work if it is not easily accessible and/or catches you all the way up. There is lot of talk about being behind in combat passive but the most important gap is in harvesting and crafting. Player skill can not make up for this.

  Hide contents

 

How does someone contribute in a meaningful way in harvesting/crafting against this? Its not going to happen at 50% or 75% caught up. Maybe at 90%?

This is even more true of crafting. No one is going to want to use materials on a crafter that is 90% of the guilds best crafter.

Also, Gravedigging might need a look at. Resources are way too abundant.

  Hide contents

unknown.pngunknown.pngunknown.pngunknown.pngunknown.png

 

This was just a few hours of farming today.

WTS parts

WTB storage

What’s with the less drops obsession? More drops I say. Let’s get to pvping not grind out resources day after day after day. Less grind more player conflict. 

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Posted (edited)

 

For me this has the potencial to ruin the game for the crafters, its annoying because the experimentation points and the crafting skill comes from the passive training.

I've been playing Crowfall on and off since the beginning of this year, and what I realized is:

Choosing just two skill lines to level is nice, gives you the feeling that decisions matter

1. Exceeding the skill limit is not handled properly I think, whats the point of locking the earned points in a maxed out skill?

Let me explain how this happened so you guys can see how this can be a problem. Like I said I've been playing this game on and off for a while, I've choose to level up rune making, so I selected it and played for some time, got the skill up to 80-90% or something, and then only resumed playing after another two weeks or more, when I came back I was able to max out the skill, but with more than 100k points to spare.

So I agree with the decision to restrict the max points unspent, so people will have to be more active and take of their points, but letting it got to waste should not happen. To fix this I suggest putting the exceeding in a skill line counter that will also have a max amount, if its reached it will stop earning, but at least with this the wasting problem is gone.

2. Just the passive training is definitely not enough , specially for crafters, since the experimentation points and the assembly success comes out of it, it will make you want to just  keep loging in and spending points until is actually nice to craft something.

Like I said before, I first maxed out rune making, now I wanted to focus on blacksmith, I choose the path and played, then I realized  that with the amount of experimentation points and assembly success I had I could only make vendor like gear or a little bit better. Now I got to that point that there was nothing I could do in this weekend play session that could make that go quicker so I could enjoy the craft, so I decided to wait a week or two to come back and keep my craft going. Can you see my point? 

Please take notice that for the blacksmith skill line to be maxed out (without the thrall line) it takes around 1.4 million points, that sums to 50 days.

My suggestion to fix this is to award extra points, aside from the passive ones, for performing activity of the selected skill.

Example: With blacksmith selected for training, let’s assume the process of crafting a Weapon Hilt (Weapon Grip + Pommel + Weapon Crossguard).

  1. For the Weapon grip I would have to craft plank or stitched leather, since it's not my active skill I will not get points for craft any of those, but I will get 6 points for crafting the grip itself

  2. For the Pommel I would have to craft a metal bar, so 3 points, plus 6 for the pommel itself

  3. For the Weapon Crossguard the same as the Pommel 9 points total

  4. For making the weapon hilt I would get another 18 points

So the process of crafting a Weapon hilt would give me 6+9+9+18 = 42 points. Considering that we get 18 points per minute I would get more than 2 minutes of passive training reduced by actively training. It’s not much but considering I would have to gather the materials, and perform the task, I estimate that 1 hour of actively gathering and smelting would reduce 1 hour of passive training. 

This number are just an example but I think this mechanic would make it awesome. With this suggestion it would take about 30 days maybe to be able to create a decent blacksmith item. I still think this is a lot considering that you can only train one craft at a time, but it will give a better sense of progression.

Hope @thomasblair sees this.

Skill reach unspent cap at 259200 = 10 days to stop getting points

18 points per minute -> 1080 points per hour -> 25,920 points per day

Edited by pedraozaum
Added info about how much time it takes to max the skill

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@Arkade I updated the my post to include the amount of time necessary to max the blacksmith skill (not considering the thrall line), 50 days, I don't really think that its quicker, and besides, when we go to combat you could compensate the lack of points by being better at pvp, but crafters can't do such a thing, we wont be able to create better itens with better stats without the passive training, you see?

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24 minutes ago, pedraozaum said:

@Arkade I updated the my post to include the amount of time necessary to max the blacksmith skill (not considering the thrall line), 50 days, I don't really think that its quicker, and besides, when we go to combat you could compensate the lack of points by being better at pvp, but crafters can't do such a thing, we wont be able to create better itens with better stats without the passive training, you see?

The blacksmithing tree is the longest crafting tree, and it's still much shorter than training to the end of the armor and weapons trees. With catch up mechanics, it will be even quicker.

You can get a better vessel, better gear, disciplines, items and buffs to improve your crafting. You aren't entirely dependent on the skill tree.

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2 hours ago, Arkade said:

The blacksmithing tree is the longest crafting tree, and it's still much shorter than training to the end of the armor and weapons trees. With catch up mechanics, it will be even quicker.

You can get a better vessel, better gear, disciplines, items and buffs to improve your crafting. You aren't entirely dependent on the skill tree.

Yeah, you are right, I realised that I don't need the whole tree, some lines gives more experimentation points and assembly rate. And I don't know yet how much the quality improve on disciplines are but I'll take a look, and I will also try to get better vessels.

Thank you for your tips!

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On 8/19/2019 at 7:03 PM, Arkade said:

The blacksmithing tree is the longest crafting tree, and it's still much shorter than training to the end of the armor and weapons trees. With catch up mechanics, it will be even quicker.

You can get a better vessel, better gear, disciplines, items and buffs to improve your crafting. You aren't entirely dependent on the skill tree.

Except we are at 3x speed. So if it took 50 now it will take 150 days at launch. That’s half a year. And don’t forget you need to do basics first on top of that. 

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19 minutes ago, oneply said:

Except we are at 3x speed. So if it took 50 now it will take 150 days at launch. That’s half a year. And don’t forget you need to do basics first on top of that. 

I really hope they realize that there is no need to make it slower by launch, if anything make it 4x then, if it goes to anything slower I'll probably not play, since I like crafting and don't have big play sessions. I still think the mechanic I suggested could be applied to all skill lines, craft, combat and exploration, and would give greater feeling of progression.

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1 hour ago, oneply said:

Except we are at 3x speed. So if it took 50 now it will take 150 days at launch. That’s half a year.

I think Ace needs to look back to the original vision; learn by doing. The passives are fine, but there needs to be an active component to the skill training.

For combat & harvesting, the concept isn't hard to imagine. Go do stuff, get better at doing it.

Crafting is more of a problem. Unskilled craftsmen making useless crap to throw in the fire so they can learn to not make crap isn't a very compelling game loop.

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Posted (edited)
53 minutes ago, VaMei said:

I think Ace needs to look back to the original vision; learn by doing. The passives are fine, but there needs to be an active component to the skill training.

For combat & harvesting, the concept isn't hard to imagine. Go do stuff, get better at doing it.

Crafting is more of a problem. Unskilled craftsmen making useless crap to throw in the fire so they can learn to not make crap isn't a very compelling game loop.

I would like to see a maximum amount of training you can get in a 24 hour window day from time passing. At the same time, activity in game will boost that maximum by x% capped at y%. The goal of this would be to make players not feel forced to play while still rewarding those that do.

Edited by Zatch

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Just now, Zatch said:

I would like to see a maximum amount of training you can get in a 24hour window day from time At the same time, activity in game will boost that maximum by x%. The goal of this would be to make players not feel forced to play while still rewarding those that do.

While I like gain by doing, there needs to be a daily/weekly cap that cannot be exceeded. It should be easy for a casual to earn a daily. 

If you create a soft cap, someone will figure out the most efficient way to get past it and create a macro or no life it. Too easy to game. 

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2 minutes ago, oneply said:

While I like gain by doing, there needs to be a daily/weekly cap that cannot be exceeded. It should be easy for a casual to earn a daily. 

If you create a soft cap, someone will figure out the most efficient way to get past it and create a macro or no life it. Too easy to game. 

I don't think that is that easy, for crafting yeah, but it envolves resources, so it has a efort to it. For combat the guy would need to make oposing faction characters, log then in, make them go somewhere secretive, make sure the crits  are calculated, no one get there, a lot of variables, and besides that ACE could consider it cheating and ban the accounta so it would not be worthy, for gathering the resources will decay the tools, have a respawn time, and maybe a mechanic could avoid getting xp at the same location without a half hour interval or something. 

Capping the exp of an activity that is part of the game flow would turn this into every other mmo.

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6 minutes ago, oneply said:

While I like gain by doing, there needs to be a daily/weekly cap that cannot be exceeded. It should be easy for a casual to earn a daily. 

IMO, a weekly cap is way more friendly. Don't try to force players to log in daily to use it or loose it. If a player takes 2 or 3 days away, they shouldn't loose anything for having done it if they choose to binge on Saturday to make it up.

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1 minute ago, pedraozaum said:

 

I don't think that is that easy, for crafting yeah, but it envolves resources, so it has a efort to it. For combat the guy would need to make oposing faction characters, log then in, make them go somewhere secretive, make sure the crits  are calculated, no one get there, a lot of variables, and besides that ACE could consider it cheating and ban the accounta so it would not be worthy, for gathering the resources will decay the tools, have a respawn time, and maybe a mechanic could avoid getting xp at the same location without a half hour interval or something. 

Capping the exp of an activity that is part of the game flow would turn this into every other mmo.

You can’t stop them. Adding too much detection coding will make game performance suffer. And gamers will always figure out a way to overcome it. 

And this game is already well on its way to being just like every other mmo. They abandoned their original vision 

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13 minutes ago, oneply said:

You can’t stop them. Adding too much detection coding will make game performance suffer. And gamers will always figure out a way to overcome it. 

And this game is already well on its way to being just like every other mmo. They abandoned their original vision 

I agree that people will try, if not for the exp then for the resources itself, the point is, every activy already has it natural way of preventing that kind of behaviour.

The node farming not yet, but I think the resources should be placed randomly so it would make us explore more, and that would prevent that kind of behaviour, the only thing that ACE would have to do is to have staff to monitor abuses in game, like chat abuse, or actions, that they would need anyway.

I've played a lot of games with this cap, they break immersion, sometimes you can ignore the lack of reward, because you love pvp for instance, but in general you ll reach the cap and log out.

We have to treat exceptions as they are, exceptions.

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34 minutes ago, pedraozaum said:

I agree that people will try, if not for the exp then for the resources itself, the point is, every activy already has it natural way of preventing that kind of behaviour.

The node farming not yet, but I think the resources should be placed randomly so it would make us explore more, and that would prevent that kind of behaviour, the only thing that ACE would have to do is to have staff to monitor abuses in game, like chat abuse, or actions, that they would need anyway.

I've played a lot of games with this cap, they break immersion, sometimes you can ignore the lack of reward, because you love pvp for instance, but in general you ll reach the cap and log out.

We have to treat exceptions as they are, exceptions.

Thus time locked passive training. As much as it sucks it keeps everyone on even footing and allows the game to be played. 

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Allow skill points allocation through the game site. Or an app. And spirit bank /guild bank management. And EK vendors management.


Being powerful is like being a lady. If you have to tell people you are, you aren't.

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Posted (edited)

A game being playable is the bare minimum, it should attract and retain, current games do that by daily quests and caps, but as you can see they are in decline. This game is trying to reach something that will keep us interested, as we pointed out, the current passive tree is playable, but its taking the fun of the game. I really don't see what is the problem of implementing an active base progression to the tree alongside the passive one, as I suggested.

If the reason is people will try to exploit it, they will do the same with resources even if there is no exp reward, so why not?
And besides that, as I pointed out, crafting is limited by resources, combat by other players interaction and random crits, and gathering by resource spawn being random (yet to be implemented).

Edited by pedraozaum
typos

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